FoyeTwenty Boston Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Lets assume for a second the Umbers are not Stark or Bolton loyalist but simply opportunists. Bran told Rickon and Osha to go to the Last Hearth so they got lucky and have been waiting for the right time to play their trump card. I've been thinking of how giving Rickon up by the Umbers could be all part of the plan. Or rather, what that plan could possibly be. So bare with the speculation. So right off the bat, whatever this plan is, success can't rest on Rickon surviving. The chances of Ramsey just killing him immediately are too great. So I propose the Umbers are more concerned about gaining Ramsey's trust. If simply getting into his good graces and confidence is the goal, why not bend the knee? I speculate this trust is to properly position their Umber forces within the walls of Winterfell and in the camps prior to the battle. But do the Umber's alone have the power to take on the Boltons/Karstarks/ect? No, I don't think so. Let's look at Littlefinger. His original plan was to let Stannis and the Boltons fight it out cleaning up a weakened victor with the Vale forces. He would have never obtained KL support without Sansa being Winterfell or been able to Rally the Vale so easly. So that move makes sense, more in hindsight. Worst case scenario there are no Starks left, but someone will still need to rule. He has the crown's (Lannister) support for this with a promise to be made Warden of the North. I speculate that at some point on his travels back to the Vale after dropping Sansa off he become aware of the Umbers in possession of Rickon. Perhaps he was seeking out Northern Houses support and learned of Rickon that way. Either way I think LF knows about Rickon and is allied with the Umbers. I think the plan is for Rickon to die and to marry a rescued Sansa to Jon Umber. Jon Snow is a token Stark to rally behind during the war but not a real Stark with a claim. The key to the North is Sansa or a Lannister KL appointment. LF will give Sansa , the position of Warden of the North and Winterfell to Jon Umber in return for Northern support to call the banners when it is time for LF to obtain his ultimate goal, the Iron Throne. I don't think he will make his move until after the Sparrows, Tyrells, Lannister come to a conclusion, again confronting the weakened victor. Now LF has the North, the Vale, the Riverlands at his back with only whatever forces are left in King's Landing and the South in his way. It's not a terrible plan. Though I am reaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoyeTwenty Boston Posted May 19, 2016 Author Share Posted May 19, 2016 Oh, I forgot to add, he literally means, "Join the Freys" because that's who controls the Riverlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerys Blackfyre Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 9 hours ago, FoyeTwenty Boston said: Oh, I forgot to add, he literally means, "Join the Freys" because that's who controls the Riverlands. LF said "it's time to join the FRAY" not "the FREY" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BazdorClegane Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 7 minutes ago, Aerys Blackfyre said: LF said "it's time to join the FRAY" not "the FREY" Yeah i think people are reading into that line too much. I think he literally meant "Fray". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BazdorClegane Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 9 hours ago, FoyeTwenty Boston said: Lets assume for a second the Umbers are not Stark or Bolton loyalist but simply opportunists. Bran told Rickon and Osha to go to the Last Hearth so they got lucky and have been waiting for the right time to play their trump card. I've been thinking of how giving Rickon up by the Umbers could be all part of the plan. Or rather, what that plan could possibly be. So bare with the speculation. So right off the bat, whatever this plan is, success can't rest on Rickon surviving. The chances of Ramsey just killing him immediately are too great. So I propose the Umbers are more concerned about gaining Ramsey's trust. If simply getting into his good graces and confidence is the goal, why not bend the knee? I speculate this trust is to properly position their Umber forces within the walls of Winterfell and in the camps prior to the battle. But do the Umber's alone have the power to take on the Boltons/Karstarks/ect? No, I don't think so. Let's look at Littlefinger. His original plan was to let Stannis and the Boltons fight it out cleaning up a weakened victor with the Vale forces. He would have never obtained KL support without Sansa being Winterfell or been able to Rally the Vale so easly. So that move makes sense, more in hindsight. Worst case scenario there are no Starks left, but someone will still need to rule. He has the crown's (Lannister) support for this with a promise to be made Warden of the North. I speculate that at some point on his travels back to the Vale after dropping Sansa off he become aware of the Umbers in possession of Rickon. Perhaps he was seeking out Northern Houses support and learned of Rickon that way. Either way I think LF knows about Rickon and is allied with the Umbers. I think the plan is for Rickon to die and to marry a rescued Sansa to Jon Umber. Jon Snow is a token Stark to rally behind during the war but not a real Stark with a claim. The key to the North is Sansa or a Lannister KL appointment. LF will give Sansa , the position of Warden of the North and Winterfell to Jon Umber in return for Northern support to call the banners when it is time for LF to obtain his ultimate goal, the Iron Throne. I don't think he will make his move until after the Sparrows, Tyrells, Lannister come to a conclusion, again confronting the weakened victor. Now LF has the North, the Vale, the Riverlands at his back with only whatever forces are left in King's Landing and the South in his way. It's not a terrible plan. Though I am reaching I think your forgetting Ser Royce's part to play in all this. The show makers are clearly setting up something with Royce, he remains loyal to the Starks, and if it were not for Robin's (manipulated) affection for Littlefinger, i think Ser Royce would warn Robin to stay clear. Littlefinger is going o have to get rid of Ser Royce to move his plan forward. Could Ser ROyce be the next death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magog Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 1 hour ago, BazdorClegane said: Littlefinger is going o have to get rid of Ser Royce to move his plan forward. Could Ser ROyce be the next death? I think it will be other way around. I think LF will meet his ends in Sansa and Ser Royce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magog Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 11 hours ago, FoyeTwenty Boston said: I think the plan is for Rickon to die and to marry a rescued Sansa to Jon Umber. Jon Snow is a token Stark to rally behind during the war but not a real Stark with a claim. The key to the North is Sansa or a Lannister KL appointment. I don't buy it. Jon's watch has ended, he does not care for his oath anymore. If anyone rallies in his support against Ramsay, don't forget that Jon will use them against WW as well, as soon as he finishes Ramsay off, thus proving himself as the one true successor of the Starks. LF is just an instrument to stirr things up, but he will be killed by a Stark or Jon or someone from the Vale, my bet is on Ser Royce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BazdorClegane Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 11 hours ago, FoyeTwenty Boston said: I think the plan is for Rickon to die and to marry a rescued Sansa to Jon Umber. Jon Snow is a token Stark to rally behind during the war but not a real Stark with a claim. The key to the North is Sansa or a Lannister KL appointment. If Sansa/Rickon get installed as Lord of Winterfell/Wardeness of the North can they legitimise Jon Snow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magog Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 44 minutes ago, BazdorClegane said: If Sansa/Rickon get installed as Lord of Winterfell/Wardeness of the North can they legitimise Jon Snow? Joffrey "freed" Ser Barristan of his oath. The Watch is a service to all of the seven kingdoms, just like King's Guard, so it would take the king of all seven kingdoms to free Jon of his oath (yes, I think Robb would not be able to free him either since he was "just" King in the North). However, Jon considers himself freed, and by the time this is all over, the wall will fall, so - who will care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattnj81 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Magog said: I think it will be other way around. I think LF will meet his ends in Sansa and Ser Royce. I agree with this, I think LF dies this season and it will be upon Sansa's command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BazdorClegane Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 3 hours ago, BazdorClegane said: If Sansa/Rickon get installed as Lord of Winterfell/Wardeness of the North can they legitimise Jon Snow? 2 hours ago, Magog said: Joffrey "freed" Ser Barristan of his oath. The Watch is a service to all of the seven kingdoms, just like King's Guard, so it would take the king of all seven kingdoms to free Jon of his oath (yes, I think Robb would not be able to free him either since he was "just" King in the North). However, Jon considers himself freed, and by the time this is all over, the wall will fall, so - who will care? Sorry perhaps i was nto clear. I meant to ask could Sansa or Rickon, as Lord/Warden/Wardeness of the North make Jon a "Stark" as Roose Bolton did with Ramsey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magog Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Just now, BazdorClegane said: Sorry perhaps i was nto clear. I meant to ask could Sansa or Rickon, as Lord/Warden/Wardeness of the North make Jon a "Stark" as Roose Bolton did with Ramsey? No. It was Joffrey who made Ramsay a Bolton, not Roose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattnj81 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 24 minutes ago, Magog said: No. It was Joffrey who made Ramsay a Bolton, not Roose. True, but if whoever gains control is declared the new King in the North, then they could do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magog Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 In the books, Robb did just that and named Jon his heir in eventual abscence of offspring because he thought Arya, Rickon and Bran are dead, and Sansa under Lannisters' control. Then he got killed, which legally made Jon the King in the North. That's what the whole GNC revolves around. In the show, however, as Kings, they could make him a Stark as well. But, I think he will learn that Ned is not his father by the time any Stark starts to rule North again, and that he is a legal Targaryen and heir to the Iron Throne with the strongest of claims. ToJ will reveal these things, and we are yet to see how he will find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegar Estellion Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 40 minutes ago, Magog said: No. It was Joffrey who made Ramsay a Bolton, not Roose. Wasn't that Tommen, the little rubber-stamp-machine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magog Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Just now, Rhaegar Estellion said: Wasn't that Tommen, the little rubber-stamp-machine? You're right, sorry. Point is that the King made him no longer a bastard. Warden does not have that power. Otherwise, Roose would have done it himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pile-O-Starks Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 I like the idea that the Umbers are acting against Ramsay but not necessarily with Rickon or the GNC. It could be their own powergrab, or as mentioned, an alliance with LF. Perhaps LF promised Smalljon that after they take Winterfell together, he will turn the Vale's attention toward the Twins. A little revenge for the Umbers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenstone Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 11 hours ago, BazdorClegane said: I think your forgetting Ser Royce's part to play in all this. The show makers are clearly setting up something with Royce, he remains loyal to the Starks, and if it were not for Robin's (manipulated) affection for Littlefinger, i think Ser Royce would warn Robin to stay clear. Littlefinger is going o have to get rid of Ser Royce to move his plan forward. Could Ser ROyce be the next death? Lord Royce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeIAF Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Umbers are still loyal to the Starks, hear me out. It's all part of the plan, Ramsay doesn't kill anyone in seconds, he likes to play with his prey, and he's not stupid to kill his only chance to retrieve Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TickTak7 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Want to know how to make sense of the Umber's move? By accepting it at face value. 1 - They hate wildings and are upset at what's happened at Castle Black. 2 - They therefore want to align with the Bolton's to suppress the Wildings south of the wall. 3 - They offer Rickon to Ramsey in exchange for Bolton help. Simple. /GNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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