Back to the Tower Of Joy?

[Mr Smith]

9 hours ago, ricardoromell said:

How does Jon snow have a stronger claim than Danerys (assuming R+L=J).

Jon was Rhaegars bastard, Danerys is Rhaegars sister and she has a greater claim considering Rhaegars legit children are dead. That is how the monarchy works. 

Targaryen's practiced polygamy, and it is theorised that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in secret.

[Lord Friendzone]

1 hour ago, Mr Smith said:

Targaryen's practiced polygamy, and it is theorised that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in secret.

But it was used a long time ago. Hope they don't make them to be married and in fact it would serves nothing. He needs to be Targ and that's it. Jon would hardly want to claim throne before Dany and trumph her. He just wants peace as we can see aneven if they were married. any hold all the trumphs army, dragons, advisors. He would have to prove himself to her or his parentage. Beíng a Targaryen is enough and it dosn't matter really if he's bastard or trueborn...or at least to me.

[Dolorous Gabe]

18 hours ago, MoonWoman said:

I believe R+L+J but have a very hard time with the idea they were in love. There is no love in GoT. Martin does not seem the least bit interested in romance as a narrative function....I guess unless its totally tragic, which I suppose this is. The show may be written differently. Though. And its going to be definitely dragged out a bit longer. They will probably get to it soon, since we need to start focusing on the end game, but at best end of this season?

I totally believe Benjen is coming back - his name has been invoked steadily in the show since he went missing so he has some role to play.

 

17 hours ago, Magog said:

You are right about Martin's perception of love and its role in the Game, I actually agree. But there are clues that they could have been in love. What else was she doing alone (with escort of few knights) so far from WF? Show is differen, though. In the books Jaimie starts to see that Cercei's love is not what he wants it to be, but in the show he does not, as Cersei still seems to love him in the show. Love is different in the show.

About Bejnjen: I would really like him to be back in some epic way. He will bring knowldge about the WW, at least, I believe. If he comes back alive.

I strongly disagree about this perception of GRRM. He self-identifies as a romanticist and there is a strong undercurrent of this in ASOIAF. Much of it bubbles under the surface.

[TheHouseHB]

23 hours ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

Pretty sure they aren't going to reveal this until the very last episode of this season, probably titled "A Song Of Ice And Fire".

"The Prince who was Promised"

[MoonWoman]

7 hours ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

 

I strongly disagree about this perception of GRRM. He self-identifies as a romanticist and there is a strong undercurrent of this in ASOIAF. Much of it bubbles under the surface.

He may well be a romanticist but I just can't think of any relationships in ASOIAF that are based on love that end well, not one. So maybe R and L were in love because it did end tragically. I guess what I mean is there is no happily ever after. 

[Jasemina]

13 hours ago, Mr Smith said:

Targaryen's practiced polygamy, and it is theorised that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in secret.

but then there should be at least one legit and reliable person that actually had seen they had married which so far there is none or a document with rhaegars  sign stating jon is his son and i doubt bran having the vision of ToJ will change anything other than finally informing jon that his actual mother and father are lyanna and rhaegar, and then again there is a high chance jon's claim on iron throne wont be more legit than dany's considering 'seeing it all in a vision' is not a very dependable reasoning  and documents, can always be faked 

[CrypticWeirwood]

39 minutes ago, Jasemina said:

but then there should be at least one legit and reliable person that actually had seen they had married which so far there is none or a document with rhaegars  sign stating jon is his son and i doubt bran having the vision of ToJ will change anything other than finally informing jon that his actual mother and father are lyanna and rhaegar, and then again there is a high chance jon's claim on iron throne wont be more legit than dany's considering 'seeing it all in a vision' is not a very dependable reasoning  and documents, can always be faked 

It doesn't matter whether they were married or not: none of Danaerys’s living children can inherit, and she shall bear no other. Therefore even her brother’s “natural son” has an infinitely stronger claim to succession within House Targaryen than would anyone with no blood connection to her.

Martin has gone on record noting how unclear actual historical inheritance in contested claims really was.  He’s completely correct in this, for no matter how many internet commenters think the matter cut and dry, it absolutely was not so.  In ancient times, these things were decided completely differently, and even during the medieval period it was messy: look to the War of the Roses for a model.

You cannot somehow apply mathematical rigor to inheritance claims to derive a certain solution with a one hundred percent guaranteed accuracy about how these matters actually fell out historically.  In the real world these matters were anything but constant, and our author does not pretend otherwise in the world of his own devising.

Were House Targaryen to somehow persist after the coming War for the Dawn, then with Danaerys lacking any heirs of her body, Jon would have a perfectly good claim even as a natural son of Rhaegar the whilom crown prince, as would any issue of Jon’s whether within wedlock or without. Failing that, or upon his demise, there would be nothing amiss with a Blackfyre claimant, either.  Real inheritance is often enough messy, or at least can be messy when it needs to be, or has an army behind it.

I don't know whether either of those things coming to pass. They may and they may not, but I rather doubt it.

What I am certain of is that I would not look to Danaerys for any issue of her body; there is no path to dynastic succession open to her via that route.  Remember that at the House of the Undying she learned that beyond the Wall she shall find her sun-and-stars Drogo and their child, Rhaego.  This is a clear signal that she shall surely perish there beyond the Wall during the War for the Dawn, to at last join her dead family there.

[hallam]

On 5/20/2016 at 2:45 PM, Aegonzo The Great said:

Pretty sure they aren't going to reveal this until the very last episode of this season, probably titled "A Song Of Ice And Fire".

Oh my sweet summer child. Try the second half of season eight.

There is absolutely no chance we find out who Jon is this season. It is like last season when some people thought Jon got the stabby stabby in episode 9 so they would see him rise in 10. No.

There will be plenty of R+L=J hints but only because it isn't what happened.

On 5/20/2016 at 4:56 PM, Magog said:

Oh, but there will be proof. In Lyana's tomb in the crypts. With Howland Reed. We'll see.

There will be evidence of something but rather more likely it will be lightbringer. If indeed there is anything there at all. Another strong possibility is that it is empty apart from a note and Lyanna is buried elsewhere.

7 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

It doesn't matter whether they were married or not: none of Danaerys’s living children can inherit, and she shall bear no other. Therefore even her brother’s “natural son” has an infinitely stronger claim to succession within House Targaryen than would anyone with no blood connection to her.

Martin has gone on record noting how unclear actual historical inheritance in contested claims really was.  He’s completely correct in this, for no matter how many internet commenters think the matter cut and dry, it absolutely was not so.  In ancient times, these things were decided completely differently, and even during the medieval period it was messy: look to the War of the Roses for a model.

GoT seems to be set in the Plantagenet period as far as political stability goes. The robber barons had been largely brought to heel by the Tudor times.

The way that the crown got decided in Plantagenet times was whoever got to Winchester and the royal treasury first usually won. That is why William the conqueror was abandoned by his knights when he was killed in a hunting accident. The first priority was to get back to Winchester to get the loot.

 

[Wall Flower]

25 minutes ago, hallam said:

Oh my sweet summer child. Try the second half of season eight.

GoT seems to be set in the Plantagenet period as far as political stability goes. The robber barons had been largely brought to heel by the Tudor times.

The way that the crown got decided in Plantagenet times was whoever got to Winchester and the royal treasury first usually won. That is why William the conqueror was abandoned by his knights when he was killed in a hunting accident. The first priority was to get back to Winchester to get the loot.

 

It was William Rufus, I believe, who died in the hunting accident (the Conqueror's son). His brother, Henry, hot-footed it to Winchester to out manoeuvre his older brother, Robert of Normandy, for the kingship. The Conqueror had to give Normandy, an inheritance, to his oldest son, but had bequeathed England, a conquest, to his second son - hence why the kingship was up for grabs when that second son died. You're right, though, Martin does make the point that inheritance wasn't set in stone in the medieval period or in Westeros.

I certainly hope we don't have to wait another two seasons to find out Jon's parentage!

[princess_snow]

4 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

It was William Rufus, I believe, who died in the hunting accident (the Conqueror's son). His brother, Henry, hot-footed it to Winchester to out manoeuvre his older brother, Robert of Normandy, for the kingship. The Conqueror had to give Normandy, an inheritance, to his oldest son, but had bequeathed England, a conquest, to his second son - hence why the kingship was up for grabs when that second son died. You're right, though, Martin does make the point that inheritance wasn't set in stone in the medieval period or in Westeros.

I certainly hope we don't have to wait another two seasons to find out Jon's parentage!

I dont think so, just read ...

Spoiler

NExt flashback with young Ned is ep 6 and a longer one in Ep 10.......  So excited.

 

[ununsullied]

On 21 May 2016 at 11:55 AM, Dolorous Gabe said:

 

I strongly disagree about this perception of GRRM. He self-identifies as a romanticist and there is a strong undercurrent of this in ASOIAF. Much of it bubbles under the surface.

plenty of love - 

Brienne and Jaime

Talisa and Robb

Littlefinger and Catt (unrequited)

Jon and Ygritte

Khal Drogo and Dany - she is going to die at the and join him like in that vision

Sansa and Tyrion - they are still legally married at the mo and they are going to fall in love and rule at the end

[Nami]

Sorry, No romance in ASOIAF? What the hell are you guys talking about? There are many love stories in these books, most ending tragically yes, but it's there.

About the TOJ, they will drag this to the end of the season.

[hallam]

14 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

It was William Rufus, I believe, who died in the hunting accident (the Conqueror's son). His brother, Henry, hot-footed it to Winchester to out manoeuvre his older brother, Robert of Normandy, for the kingship. The Conqueror had to give Normandy, an inheritance, to his oldest son, but had bequeathed England, a conquest, to his second son - hence why the kingship was up for grabs when that second son died. You're right, though, Martin does make the point that inheritance wasn't set in stone in the medieval period or in Westeros.

I certainly hope we don't have to wait another two seasons to find out Jon's parentage!

They are not going to tell us the punchline until they tell us the setup.

The tournament at Harrenhall has to come before we find out what is inside the ToJ.

And even if we see Lyanna dying inside the ToJ, that doesn't mean we see anything more than is in the books. 

Lyanna: "Promise me Ned," 

Bran: "Why did we have to leave now"

[legolegs]

On 21.5.2016 at 9:31 PM, CrypticWeirwood said:

It doesn't matter whether they were married or not: none of Danaerys’s living children can inherit, and she shall bear no other. Therefore even her brother’s “natural son” has an infinitely stronger claim to succession within House Targaryen than would anyone with no blood connection to her.

Well to be fair you could say the one with the most powerful army has the best claim to the throne. Dany wants to take the throne by force so if she conquers all of Westeros I somehow doubt she cares too much about someone else having a "better claim". 

Oh I just realised I misread you. Jon as crownprince would make sense (though of course they won't both survive the show.. but in theory it makes sense. Agree)

[Stark Loyal]

6 minutes ago, legolegs said:

Well to be fair you could say the one with the most powerful army has the best claim to the throne. Dany wants to take the throne by force so if she conquers all of Westeros I somehow doubt she cares too much about someone else having a "better claim". 

 

It is known.  ;-)

[Smoke317]

Just watched the leaked episode 5.  And I'm not gonna spoil it for everyone. But I will say it's hands down the best episode of the season. So much groundwork lain. We're in for one helluva ride.  This is the episode to break the Internet.  We'll be discussing it forever.  Just AMAZING!!!!

 

Spoiler

And we don't return to the ToJ this episode and it still knocks it out of the park.  Fucking near flawless. 

 

[Nami]

16 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Just watched the leaked episode 5.  And I'm not gonna spoil it for everyone. But I will say it's hands down the best episode of the season. So much groundwork lain. We're in for one helluva ride.  This is the episode to break the Internet.  We'll be discussing it forever.  Just AMAZING!!!!

 

  Reveal hidden contents

And we don't return to the ToJ this episode and it still knocks it out of the park.  Fucking near flawless. 

 

Really? I wouldn't say it's the best episode of the season.

Spoiler

I'm bracing for the shitstorm it will come out of it. 

 

[Lord Friendzone]

4 minutes ago, Nami said:

Really? I wouldn't say it's the best episode of the season.

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm bracing for the shitstorm it will come out of it. 

 

Shitstorm? 

Iam guessing it has something to do with Hodor, right? If so somebody already spoiled pretty much key elements for the rest of the season.

[Smoke317]

9 minutes ago, Nami said:

Really? I wouldn't say it's the best episode of the season.

  Hide contents

I'm bracing for the shitstorm it will come out of it. 

 

Have you seen the episode yet?  Don't want to spoil anything for you. 

[Smoke317]

4 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Shitstorm? 

  Hide contents

Iam guessing it has something to do with Hodor, right? If so somebody already spoiled pretty much key elements for the rest of the season.

 

Much more than that.