The Azor Ahai Prophecy is probably fake.

[Abdallah]

Ok so I've heard plenty of theories about Azor Ahai, that it'll be Daenerys or Jon Snow will be Azor Ahai. There's one problem. Our author is an atheist who doesn't believe in religion. Now I don't want to start a discussion on religion, but I do think it's important in that GRRM spends alot of time in the books showing one, that the Rhollar priests tend to be charlatans. Melisandra is a charlatan. The priests tend to use black magic and claim it's Rhollar. He spends alot of time showing the damage done by extremists. The High Sparrow, the actions of Rhollar followers etc. GRRM doesn't seem to dislike moderately religious people (Thoros, Septon Meribald etc), just those who are extremist. He writes about it in several books, for instance in one book he talks about these extremists called the steel angels. they are the main villians in and 7 times never kill man, they do what Mel does and destroys holy places. And the Rhollar faith seems to be every bad aspect of religion one could find. Mel and Moqorro preach that the other gods, the Drowned God, the Old Gods etc. are demons. Mel and her followers burn down sacred sites, such as the statues in Dragonstone, and the Godswoods in Storm End and the Wall. Religious people will try to defend their holy places, and attacking a holy place always leads to disaster. If Someone tried to rule Europe and burned down the vatican, or tried to rule the middle east and tried to burn down the Kabaa, what do you think would happen? Thats what Mel is doing in Westeros. Both her and Moqorro are burning people alive in human sacrifices. Rhollar seems to me to be GRRM taking every bad thing he can think of in religion. So why do we assume they are right? I don't think GRRM is gonna say "these are the most extreme people, who hate everyone who disagrees and burns people alive, but they are right". 

[Vastet]

Speaking as an atheist, I enjoy many stories that make religions real. I'd have no problem with writing one either. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean they'll characterise all religion as false.

[Abdallah]

3 minutes ago, Vastet said:

Speaking as an atheist, I enjoy many stories that make religions real. I'd have no problem with writing one either. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean they'll characterise all religion as false.

It's not just that GRRM is an atheist, it's that he wrote about this topic alot before. George has this 1000 Worlds Universe. In Call Him Moses a Charlatan uses technology to fool people into believing in him. In And 7 Times Never Kill Man, he talks about religious fanatics called the Steel Angels. And In the House of The Worm, he discribes a fatalistic religion where the leader has his eyes, privates, arms and legs chopped off to be closer to the Great Worm (their God). 

Rhollar tends to be all three of these things. Mel's followers tend to be fanatics who want to burn religious sites like the Steel angels destoryed the Gangshes temples. Like In the House of the Worm Mel's followers then to be fatalistic as they burn people alive. and like in Call Him Moses they use Black Magic and parlor tricks to fool people.

Now it's not that the religions might not be true. For Instance when Jaime broke guests rights and pushed Bran out a window he lost his hand. The Freys have been dropping like flies since the Red Wedding. the 7, the Old Gods and Rhollor could be true. GRRM even gives postivie portrays of religious people, such as Septon Meribald, The Elder Brother, Thoros of Myr etc. As a religious person (muslim) I really liked these portrays as thats how I tend to feel about my religious leaders.  

[Dorian Martell]

GRRM purposely craps on prophecy, prediction and organized religion. the old gods aren't even gods, they are memories of people and the children. So yes, Azor Ahai is bull$hit. AA is however an archetype that so far, both Dany and Jon fit very well. they also both fit the prince that was promised. Bran fits the last hero

[Abdallah]

6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

GRRM purposely craps on prophecy, prediction and organized religion. the old gods aren't even gods, they are memories of people and the children. So yes, Azor Ahai is bull$hit. AA is however an archetype that so far, both Dany and Jon fit very well. they also both fit the prince that was promised. Bran fits the last hero

Preston Jacobs has suggested it's going to end with Daenerys followers and Jon's followers waging a destructive war as both of them are viewed as gods now. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

I don't know about religion (I am Christian), but I know Martin is probably leaning on the very real existence of prophesies in the middle ages. One example that most people are familiar with is the "Maid of Lorraine". Part of the reason so many people believed that Joan was special tied to a prophecy written several decades earlier. This is just one example, and I think that is what Martin is playing with. 

[Hol Horse]

The Andals burned down entire Weirwood forests, butchering their denizens and worshipers.

The Ironborn follow a god that tells them to murder and rape, and they contribute nothing useful to the world.

Then you have the knights of the Seven that are sworn to uphold honor, duty, and all that jazz 'cause the gods say so, yet they're no better than the giant population of scummy individuals who couldn't care less about the gods. The High Sparrow thinks R'hllor is a demon and has no place in Westeros, despite the fact that his own religion lead to the extinction of other forms of worship.

R'hllor and its followers aren't doing anything new, the only difference is their impact is either A) Oriented around Essos, and they're not in active conflict with any other faiths, and B ) They're repeating history in Westeros on a much smaller scale. Sure, Mel and Moqorro are extremists, but that's because they're allowed to be. Stannis is Mel's enabler, just like Vic is Moqorro's. Do you honestly think - Mel specifically (since Moqorro is still tame) would have anywhere near as much power and influence if she wasn't supported by Stannis? Hell, prior to his conversion most people wanted to kill her, many still do. And 'black magic'? How do you define that? Most of Mel's 'black magic' is linked to her being a shadowbinder rather than her religion. Thoros and Ezzelyno are both practitioners of said faith, yet they're far from evil or corrupt - the former's actually using his power to save and the latter is simply a jolly feller. Kinda strange to give every other religion a pass and bring the critique hammer down on R'hllor. Most of the major religions in ASoIaF behave like our religions; they've their pros and cons with volatile tendencies and their fair share of historical extremists.

Just because the ideologies of the Red Priests doesn't match your own doesn't mean they don't have actual power. Granted, they're probably not 100% on-point, but TPTWP, the Last Hero, and AA are three speshul people from three different cultures, and from a storytelling point of view I'd be surprised if they ended up not attached to one or more of the characters by the end of the series - even if it's nothing more than a vague, symbolic attachment.

 

 

[Dorian Martell]

41 minutes ago, Abdallah said:

Preston Jacobs has suggested it's going to end with Daenerys followers and Jon's followers waging a destructive war as both of them are viewed as gods now. 

Preston Jacobs is a fool. He digs very deep in minor connections between characters and tries to make them the foundation of the story when they are obviously not.
The ending will be biter sweet, not two gods fighting 

[Greg B]

We know that Melisandre, at least, has divination magic that sometimes works (imperfectly). Whether an actual god is the source of the magic doesn't especially matter. Prophecy can be just another kind of divination magic, foretelling more distant events than the ones Melisandre sees in the flames, but no different in kind.

[chrisdaw]

You can bank on the prophesy coming to be, just not in an expected manner. That's how prophesies in stories work.

[Clegane'sPup]

Maybe Martin finds religion and spirituality fascinating.

http://www.ew.com/article/2011/07/12/george-martin-talks-a-dance-with-dragons

There’s a line in book 5 where character says, “The gods are good.” Jaime thinks, “You go on believing that.” You talk about religion a lot in the stories, but what are your views?

I suppose I’m a lapsed Catholic. You would consider me an atheist or agnostic. I find religion and spirituality fascinating. I would like to believe this isn’t the end and there’s something more, but I can’t convince the rational part of me that that makes any sense whatsoever. That’s what Tolkien left out – there’s no priesthood, there’s no temples; nobody is worshiping anything in Rings.

Here is a snippet of the chapter the interviewer seems to be referencing:

"Not all," said Jaime. "Lord Eddard's daughters live. One has just been wed. The other …" Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? "… if the gods are good, she'll forget she was a Stark. She'll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall."

"The gods are good," his hostage [Hoster Blackwood] said, uncertainly.

You go on believing that. Jaime let Honor feel his spurs. DwD Jaime I

 

The different factions in the books basically do the same thing that people throughout the centuries on planet earth have done. The author in my opinion,  just puts a medieval magical fantasy fiction spin on it.

[Fox of House McCloud]

Just want to point out that religious tolerance as a popular opinion is a very new concept. There were massive religious wars (crusades) in the past, and it makes sense that different religions would clash within ASoIaF.

On that note, it's also a fairly common perception (to a lesser extent now, no doubt) that "Gods" outside ones own religion are demonic entities (false gods). Destroying false gods and their sacred sites is important; would you, as a strong believer, let perceived demon worshippers pray to their false gods on your doorstep? No. You destroy the false gods and convert the demon worshippers, or you kill them.

If you read the Bible (the only religious text I'm really familiar with, though this probably applies to others as well), particularly the reign of Kings in the Old Testament, all of the just/holy/prosperous rulers at one point or another tore down the holy places of the false gods, and destroyed their idols.

It may seem radical by 21st century western standards, but this would be really common in medieval times.

[OuttaOldtown]

My feeling is you must always consider the source. Evil often presents itself as the solution when it's really part of the problem. Believing a reborn AA is the savior is suggesting that this religion is fighting for the survival of humanity. How is life in Asshai? Surely if the Others want the world covered in ice the Red Priests want the world to be black and/or aflame. Two sides of the same destructive coin..

[Bael's Bastard]

GRRM has played around with prophecy being fulfilled in ways people don't expect, and I think that is far more likely to be the case with this and other prophecies than the prophecies being "fake."

[Forlong the Fat]

It's notable that the priests of Red Raloo have produced, in at least three instances, "miracles' that would convince almost anyone in our world of Raloo's divinity. In fact, for those who believe it hapoened, resurrection is the most important proof of Christ's divinity. Likewise, Dany surviving the funeral pyre is reminiscent of the miracle of Shardrach, Meshach, and Abednego. 

 

So so we have irrefutable proof of miracles. The source of these miracles is "magic," but from what source does this magic arise? Although he has left this question ambiguous, GRRM certainly has not foreclosed actual divinity. 

[kimim]

9 hours ago, Abdallah said:

Preston Jacobs has suggested it's going to end with Daenerys followers and Jon's followers waging a destructive war as both of them are viewed as gods now. 

If that's what Preston says, then the opposite will happen: Dany and Jon will unite (after some disagreements) and fight the Walkers.

Re GRRM and atheism and agnosticism: GRRM has said that the novels are agnostic: ie., we're not going to be given definite answers about the existence of gods. That kinda means he's no more likely to say "there are no gods" than he is to say "there are gods." Answer will be "it's a mystery."

Re prophecy: It works in GRRM's fantasy world, but often in surprising ways. Places where it works almost literally: Jojen's green dreams and Ghost of High Heart's prophecies.

Re this whole topic: GRRM might have a history of writing sci fi, but in this instance, he is writing fantasy...and yes, authors can change genres. He has said that there is "magic" in his universe. PJ's bizarre belief that this magic is science via telekinesis is beyond stupid...especially if you sit down and think about what telekinesis is. Telekinesis is no more inherently "scientific" than prophecies and angels and ghosts. How telekinesis is presented is, therefore, up to the author. While writing science fiction, the author might add some "science" elements. While writing fantasy, the author might present the concept as magic.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, kimim said:

Re GRRM and atheism and agnosticism: GRRM has said that the novels are agnostic: ie., we're not going to be given definite answers about the existence of gods. That kinda means he's no more likely to say "there are no gods" than he is to say "there are gods." Answer will be "it's a mystery."

 

I love how the internet-verse works. I posted a link to an interview made in 2011 when DwD was released to counteract the OP.

http://www.ew.com/article/2011/07/12/george-martin-talks-a-dance-with-dragons

Now the novels are agnostic.

[Minuteman]

I think that R'hllor and the NQ were both of a common magical race distinct from humans but alike in interaction much as the Mithrandir in LotR. The CotF knew them as they were: long lived beings of great power and treated them with the respect they deserved. Men on the other hand saw them as god-like and worshipped them as such. R'hllor founded Valyria and his descendants were the sorcerer princes of old Valyria which include the Targs. He promoted the belief that he was a god and eliminated the CotF in Essos who knew him to be otherwise. I think that the Starks are descended from the NQ. The "blood of the dragon" references those descended from these two. It also opens up an interesting point that I think Martin would relish in: does a god have to be all powerful to be a god? If the answer is yes then there will be no gods in asoiaf. If the answer is no then R'hllor and the NQ being gods depend on how you define godhood.

[Philokles]

I believe that the vast majority, if not all of the prophecy in the books will be either self-fulfilling or false. For the false ones there will probably be a lot that most people will accept have been fulfilled, but really have major inconsistencies - much like Stannis' Lightbringer.

[bent branch]

15 hours ago, Vastet said:

Speaking as an atheist, I enjoy many stories that make religions real. I'd have no problem with writing one either. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean they'll characterise all religion as false.

I agree with you. I don't understand the need for making even fictional religions false. I don't believe in zombies either, but I do believe in them in GRRM's story.