Leonardo Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 I mean it seems like he did extremely little compared to being hand of the king for so long and effectively ruling the seven kingdoms, and even before that. I figure he must have been shoring up relations within the Westerlands to be ready, but even then it seems he did almost nothing in regards to the rest of the realm aside from lend money to the crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 What should he have done? Jon Arryn was hand, his daughter was queen, the king was indebted to him. He was ruling the Westerlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaibaman Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 My guess is the entire time he was at CR, he was building an army, gathering as much gold as he can get while also menuvoring at court from his home base through his daughter the queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cayrouse Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 not making new heirs apparently which is only kinda surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted May 21, 2016 Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 Just now, Kaibaman said: My guess is the entire time he was at CR, he was building an army, gathering as much gold as he can get while also menuvoring at court from his home base through his daughter the queen. Eh Cersei seems rather independent though. He should have been working on building alliances. The North was out of the question with Ned as was Dorne, but there was still the Tyrells as an easy target. The others all have various affiliations or reasons but it seems strange he didn't work harder at some things. Maybe he did with the Freys and Boltons though given what happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 44 minutes ago, Leonardo said: Eh Cersei seems rather independent though. He should have been working on building alliances. The North was out of the question with Ned as was Dorne, but there was still the Tyrells as an easy target. The others all have various affiliations or reasons but it seems strange he didn't work harder at some things. Maybe he did with the Freys and Boltons though given what happened? He had alliances, his son-in-law was the King and his grandchildren (Cersei was still young enough to have more) would have been married to the most powerful Houses in the realm. He tried to have Tyrion marry a Hightower, a Royce, a Florent with little success He arranged for two of his nephews to become Squires for the King. One of them, Tyrek, was betrothed to a rich heiress in the Crownlands (Hayford), two other nephews were married to a daughter of a previous Lord Darry and a Crakehall. Daven was set to marry the only daughter of Lord Redwyne. Other cousins were married to Lords Peake and Jast. I'm not really sure what more you expect him to do? His grandson would one day be King. Securing (even more) alliances was not a priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted May 21, 2016 Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said: He had alliances, his son-in-law was the King and his grandchildren (Cersei was still young enough to have more) would have been married to the most powerful Houses in the realm. He tried to have Tyrion marry a Hightower, a Royce, a Florent with little success He arranged for two of his nephews to become Squires for the King. One of them, Tyrek, was betrothed to a rich heiress in the Crownlands (Hayford), two other nephews were married to a daughter of a previous Lord Darry and a Crakehall. Daven was set to marry the only daughter of Lord Redwyne. Other cousins were married to Lords Peake and Jast. I'm not really sure what more you expect him to do? His grandson would one day be King. Securing (even more) alliances was not a priority. I'd forgotten so some of this very true in regards to alliances. In the light that they tried to basically usurp the crown's power though(he didn't know or wouldn't believe he was supplanting the dynasty with his own), an alliance with a major house that was readily available seems a bit of an oversight. Let's suppose things go well, Riverrun falls to Jaime, Ned is imprisoned(or sent to wall or home and has daughters as hostages) along with Arya and Sansa, and there are still the two Baratheon brothers left. Renly still joins with the Tyrells unless he is captured, and Stannis is still free to press his claim. With the Dornish hating them, the Vale not an ally, it leaves a lot to chance and basically with just the Ironborn as an option. And why not try to lay the groundwork to get Jaime back into the fold? Maybe it was being laid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebrose Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Leonardo said: He should have been working on building alliances. The North was out of the question with Ned as was Dorne, but there was still the Tyrells as an easy target. The others all have various affiliations or reasons but it seems strange he didn't work harder at some things. Maybe he did with the Freys and Boltons though given what happened? Why would he? Tywin "merely" was Lord Paramount of the Westerlands, so he was focused on ruling the Westerlands, as Mace was in the Reach, Ned in the North, and Hoster in the Riverlands. Doran is a natural schemer, and he might have been building secret alliances across the Narrow Sea, but not even him worked on alliances within Westeros. Balon rebelled mainly because he was delusional, without any alliance to support his cause. Jon and Renly were part of Robert's Small Council, and little more. Little signs of Lord Paramounts building alliances with other regions. They focused on their own lands, as it had been usual until the previous generation ("Southron ambitions" and so). Maybe we could argue that Renly had been building his alliance with the Reach for long, but I find it unlikely. The reign had been quite stable despite the change of dynasty thanks to the strong alliances that were built just before and after the rebellion. And in particular the Lannister's had the theoretically most powerful alliance of all: the Crown itself. The military strength that the Westerlands gather in such a short amount of time tells me that Tywin had been working quite well in his own lands, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, Leonardo said: I'd forgotten so some of this very true in regards to alliances. In the light that they tried to basically usurp the crown's power though(he didn't know or wouldn't believe he was supplanting the dynasty with his own), an alliance with a major house that was readily available seems a bit of an oversight. Let's suppose things go well, Riverrun falls to Jaime, Ned is imprisoned(or sent to wall or home and has daughters as hostages) along with Arya and Sansa, and there are still the two Baratheon brothers left. Renly still joins with the Tyrells unless he is captured, and Stannis is still free to press his claim. With the Dornish hating them, the Vale not an ally, it leaves a lot to chance and basically with just the Ironborn as an option. And why not try to lay the groundwork to get Jaime back into the fold? Maybe it was being laid? You are acting under the assumption that Tywin knew that his grandchildren were bastards and there would be a war of the Five Kings. Why would he presume his children would do something so utterly stupid? His whole spiel is about doing what is right for House Lannister, the idea that they would selfishly and idiotically cuckold the King and not only lose an easy way to secure a part Lannister on the throne but at the same time putting the Lannisters in jeopardy. Had he known the entire realm would be going to war with him I doubt he would have attacked the Riverlands, instead he would have courted some of their most powerful Lords (most notably the Freys). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted May 21, 2016 Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said: You are acting under the assumption that Tywin knew that his grandchildren were bastards and there would be a war of the Five Kings. Why would he presume his children would do something so utterly stupid? His whole spiel is about doing what is right for House Lannister, the idea that they would selfishly and idiotically cuckold the King and not only lose an easy way to secure a part Lannister on the throne but at the same time putting the Lannisters in jeopardy. Had he known the entire realm would be going to war with him I doubt he would have attacked the Riverlands, instead he would have courted some of their most powerful Lords (most notably the Freys). He did seem to presume the Baratheon brothers would contest his sons' claim is my point and that Robert would soon die, or why attack the Riverlands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walda Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 You know, I'm not sure he even lent money to Robert. It wouldn't surprise me if all the gold that was overflowing Aerys treasury when Ned took over had been borrowed from Tywin, who stuck around long enough to ensure that Robert was saddled with the debt and with Cersei, before returning to the death star Casterley Rock where he could build his empire (or his empire-destroying device) in peace. It does seem a long time in retirement for someone so used to having his hand on the tiller. It doesn't seem that he taken up meditation and grown out of touch with the machinations of Kings Landing, the way Eddard did. (Maybe if he had a Godswood, and a Valyrian sword to polish...), He seems to have been an excellent correspondent, and to have visited his grandchildren reasonably often. The book leads us to suppose it was Catelyn's abduction of Tywin that lead to the harrying of Riverrun, but I really wonder if that had not been prepared earlier. He seemed to find the Brave Companions quick enough. Also, keeping Gregor from killing anyone who mattered for eighteen years, can't have been easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, Leonardo said: He did seem to presume the Baratheon brothers would contest his sons' claim is my point Yup. After Renly had proclaimed himself King. It is only after the Battle of the Green Fork does Tywin find this out, not before. Our position is worse than you know," his father went on. "It would seem we have a new king." Ser Kevan looked poleaxed. "A new - who? What have they done to Joffrey?" The faintest flicker of distaste played across Lord Tywin's thin lips. "Nothing . . . yet. My grandson still sits the Iron Throne, but the eunuch has heard whispers from the south. Renly Baratheon wed Margaery Tyrell at Highgarden this fortnight past, and now he has claimed the crown. The bride's father and brothers have bent the knee and sworn him their swords." "Those are grave tidings." When Ser Kevan frowned, the furrows in his brow grew deep as canyons. ........ His father frowned. "I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. Yet he does nothing. Oh, Varys hears his whispers. Stannis is building ships, Stannis is hiring sellswords, Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from Asshai. What does it mean? Is any of it true?" He gave an irritated shrug. "Kevan, bring us the map." These are not events he could have planned for as he only finds out about them after he has already gone to war. 3 minutes ago, Leonardo said: and that Robert would soon die, Not really. His whole plan with the Riverlands was to provoke them so they officially attacked first, which they did at the Golden Tooth, giving him the excuse to retaliate. He had his ready made excuse for Robert if Cat refused to give back Tyrion and Tywin was forced to go to war for him. 3 minutes ago, Leonardo said: or why attack the Riverlands? To free his son. Though I think he presumed that the Tullys and Cat would see to reason and hand over Tyrion at the prospect of war. 9 minutes ago, Walda said: but I really wonder if that had not been prepared earlier. He seemed to find the Brave Companions quick enough. The Brave Companions are a small outfit, a few hundred members. If he knew war was coming he would have hired an real Sellsword army which had thousands of men, not hundreds. "The Qohorik?" Ser Daven spat. "That's for him and all his Brave Companions. I told your father I would forage for him, but he refused me. Some tasks are fit for lions, he said, but foraging is best left for goats and dogs." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 This forgets that the Westerlands is essentially the equivalent of a large medieval nation micro-managing that is a job in itself. That and sit in his oppulent castle, make money, subtly bang whores, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhail Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Pleasuring whores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebrose Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 5 minutes ago, Ruhail said: Pleasuring whores. So whores go to Casterly Rock, then? Is that a foreshadowing for Tyrion finally ruling over the Westerlands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walda Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 20 minutes ago, Ruhail said: Pleasuring whores. The only place outside of Westeros we know Tywin has travelled to, is Lys. He wouldn't let Tyrion do a grand tour of the free cities - for fear he might sleep with whores. Or maybe, one of his sisters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruhail Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Ebrose said: So whores go to Casterly Rock, then? Is that a foreshadowing for Tyrion finally ruling over the Westerlands? He probably ninjaed them in the secret pathways of CR 1 hour ago, Walda said: The only place outside of Westeros we know Tywin has travelled to, is Lys. He wouldn't let Tyrion do a grand tour of the free cities - for fear he might sleep with whores. Or maybe, one of his sisters? I dunno probably Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 As mentioned Tywin ruled his land, joined with his son-in-law to take down Pyke when the Greyjoys rebelled and then he continued to rule his lands while the Lannister influence at court swelled. There was no need to make any overt moves as things were mostly playing into Tywin's hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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