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Jon is a traitor to the Night Watch


Shierak Qiya

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Jon betrayed the Night Watch when he engaged in illegal activities to help fake Arya get away from her husband. 

  1. He allowed a murdered and a night watch traitor like Mance Rayder to escape from execution so he can help Arya.
  2. The act of sending your agents to steal the wife of a nobleman is an act of war.  Jon basically declared war on the Boltons.
  3. Jon immediately forms an army of wildlings after reading the Pink Letter.  He announced his intentions to ride out and fight the Boltons.  His own thoughts reveal that he was willing to commit treason to help Arya.

 

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15 minutes ago, Franklin VI said:

Jon betrayed the Night Watch when he engaged in illegal activities to help fake Arya get away from her husband. 

  1. He allowed a murdered and a night watch traitor like Mance Rayder to escape from execution so he can help Arya.
  2. The act of sending your agents to steal the wife of a nobleman is an act of war.  Jon basically declared war on the Boltons.
  3. Jon immediately forms an army of wildlings after reading the Pink Letter.  He announced his intentions to ride out and fight the Boltons.  His own thoughts reveal that he was willing to commit treason to help Arya.

 

Yeah, he betrayed the night's watch to help Arya.  That's even more of a tragedy when you consider he committed treason and the girl wasn't even his sister.  Jon chose his sister over his duty to the realm.  Good points.  It's really not surprising because he already broke his vows when he deserted when he found out the Starks needed him.  His friends had to drag him back.

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4 minutes ago, BrightStar Of The Day said:

I think most people on here agree that Jon is, if you look at the "rules" of the NW, indeed a traitor. That doesn't mean that Jon himself is a dishonest person or that what he's doing is wrong.

It was wrong to choose the welfare of one and endanger the lives of the many.  But I am glad that you atleast recognize that Jon is a traitor.  That's easy for me to say because I don't like Jon at all but it may be hard for those who like him to admit. 

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35 minutes ago, Franklin VI said:

Jon betrayed the Night Watch when he engaged in illegal activities to help fake Arya get away from her husband. 

  1. He allowed a murdered and a night watch traitor like Mance Rayder to escape from execution so he can help Arya.
  2. The act of sending your agents to steal the wife of a nobleman is an act of war.  Jon basically declared war on the Boltons.
  3. Jon immediately forms an army of wildlings after reading the Pink Letter.  He announced his intentions to ride out and fight the Boltons.  His own thoughts reveal that he was willing to commit treason to help Arya.

 

  1. Mance had already escaped execution with the help of Melisandre and aresting and executing him would have had great implications, Mance was Stannis' prisoner hoisted upon Jon in the disguise of Rattleshirt against Jon's protest, that would likely led to a conflict with Stannis' men and the Wildlings that the Watch could hardly hope to survive. But I agree that sending Mance to intercept the girl on a dying horse fleeing alond a lakeshore was highly problematic, especially since he employed the help of Edd to do this. So this now was a crime of the Watch.
  2. Jon didn't do that.
  3. "The Watch makes for Hardhome" Jon acts on his own. Indeed as a traitor, for there is nothing he can do about being viewed as such by the Lord Paramount of the North at this point.

Jon in Game.

"for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty."


That did not sound right to Jon, yet he said nothing. The maester was a hundred years old, and a high officer of the Night's Watch; it was not his place to contradict him. The old man seemed to sense his doubts.                                                                                         

"Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?"
Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name.

"Hewould do whatever was right," he said . . . ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."

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1) How does allowing Mance to atone for his crimes a violation of his oath? It is clear that the LC has discretion regarding the punishment of deserters. If he deems that one can still be of use or service that is completely within his autority.

 

2) He didn't send agents. He allowed people to act on their own (or maybe Stannis' orders). The NW is forbidden to meddle in the Kingdoms' affairs, but he must not take action to prevent meddling by private individuals.

 

3) Ramsay (or whoever wrote it) declared hostility to the NW. It is the LC's job to protect the NW against these accusation.

 

All he did was in accordance with his vows and duties.

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6 minutes ago, Rhaegar Estellion said:

1) How does allowing Mance to atone for his crimes a violation of his oath? It is clear that the LC has discretion regarding the punishment of deserters. If he deems that one can still be of use or service that is completely within his autority.

 

2) He didn't send agents. He allowed people to act on their own (or maybe Stannis' orders). The NW is forbidden to meddle in the Kingdoms' affairs, but he must not take action to prevent meddling by private individuals.

 

3) Ramsay (or whoever wrote it) declared hostility to the NW. It is the LC's job to protect the NW against these accusation.

 

All he did was in accordance with his vows and duties.

1) True.

2) False. Jon's role in the plan was rather passive but the responsibility is still his because he was the highest authority in the gift at the time. He sent his man (Edd) to Mole's Town to collect Mance's six spearwives, and the spearwives had been left under his authority by Stannis (in return for Jon's military advice). So, for that matter, had Rattleshirt. I also doubt Stannis had given any orders about this. Remember Mel didn't plan to seize Arya from WF, she was responding to a vision she had after Stannis left the wall.

3) Jon's actions were about saving his sister, not the nw. Ramsay's threat was personal to Jon, not the nw.

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Jon doesn't spare Mance, Melisandre does. Jon wanted to use Mance to keep all the wildlings under one leadership and man the wall against the WW. I would call that sound judgement even if mance's crime means the death penalty since he is a good leader who united all the different clans/tribes of wildlings.

Melisandre sent Mance to get Farya as he wouldnt bcoz of his vows, they come under stannis command not Jon's

Ramsay declared war on the NW with that letter, Jon had to act or wait for Ramsay to attack castle black which doesn't have any formidable or even sufficient defenses to withstand an attack from the south

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6 minutes ago, Manderlay said:

Jon doesn't spare Mance, Melisandre does. Jon wanted to use Mance to keep all the wildlings under one leadership and man the wall against the WW. I would call that sound judgement even if mance's crime means the death penalty since he is a good leader who united all the different clans/tribes of wildlings.

Melisandre sent Mance to get Farya as he wouldnt bcoz of his vows, they come under stannis command not Jon's

Ramsay declared war on the NW with that letter, Jon had to act or wait for Ramsay to attack castle black which doesn't have any formidable or even sufficient defenses to withstand an attack from the south

This is wrong. Before Stannis left the wall he left the wildlings under Jon's command in exchange for information about the clansmen.

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Yes, But it was Stannis who allowed the wildlings through the gates and decreed that all wildlings should be allowed to pass through the wall so long they keep his peace and laws. Jon is simply making use of them and yes although they are under his command Melisandre is not. she sent mance not Jon and mance is under her control not Jon's.  

Stannis's wife has a conversation with Jon in ADWD where she approves of Tormund coming through the wall, as the wildlings will be needed in her lord husbands wars. Stannis didnt want to wait and Jon wanted men so he took the wildlings from Stannis in exchange for his insight about the mountain clans

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1 minute ago, Manderlay said:

Yes, But it was Stannis who allowed the wildlings through the gates and decreed that all wildlings should be allowed to pass through the wall so long they keep his peace and laws. Jon is simply making use of them and yes although they are under his command Melisandre is not. she sent mance not Jon and mance is under her control not Jon's.  

Stannis's wife has a conversation with Jon in ADWD where she approves of Tormund coming through the wall, as the wildlings will be needed in her lord husbands wars. Stannis didnt want to wait and Jon wanted men so he took the wildlings from Stannis in exchange for his insight about the mountain clans

What's your interest in exculpating Jon of responsibility for the Mance mission? What does Jon just observing that, rather than making a choice, add to the story?

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2 minutes ago, Manderlay said:

I am only saying that Jon is not responsible for Melisandre's actions

 

Jon can't stop Melisandre proposing what she did, but he can prevent her carrying it through. Everyone in Castle Black is under his authority, in some way, given Stannis's absence. And he himself claims, in his thoughts, that he 'loosed' Mance and the spearwives on the north.

More importantly though, the story is about the conflict between duty/honour on the one hand, and love of family on the other. So we have to see Jon put his family above his duty as LC of the nw, and given that exculpating Jon from any choice or responsibility for the Mance mission is just weird, and makes no sense in storytelling terms.

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Jon himself doesn't agree.

Quote

A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from her marriage. On the strength of those words he had loosed Mance Rayder and six spearwives on the north.

It's a point in his character arc. Children, his sister, ahead of oaths and honour. Just like someone else.

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35 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Jon can't stop Melisandre proposing what she did, but he can prevent her carrying it through. Everyone in Castle Black is under his authority, in some way, given Stannis's absence. And he himself claims, in his thoughts, that he 'loosed' Mance and the spearwives on the north.

More importantly though, the story is about the conflict between duty/honour on the one hand, and love of family on the other. So we have to see Jon put his family above his duty as LC of the nw, and given that exculpating Jon from any choice or responsibility for the Mance mission is just weird, and makes no sense in storytelling terms.

yup, I see your point about Jon's conflict and his guilt

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