Arys Oakheart and Barristan Selmy

[Danelle]

On 23/6/2016 at 6:16 AM, Oakhearts head said:

Surprisingly, Jaime doesn't really speak either way of Arys, only in passing during the meeting of all the Kingsguard after the Purple Wedding.

I really would have liked to have read Jaime's opinion of Arys though. They served together for about ten years and were both the youngest of the Kingsguard during their tenure. One was idealistic and genuinely trying to live up to the standard of the White Cloak, while the other was jaded and disillusioned with the Kingsguard and knighthood altogether. A Barristan/Jaime/Arys interaction would have been fascinating.

I love the KG and I think that they really stand out as characters in the story.

There are definitely lots of parallels between Jaime, Barristan and Arys.

For one all of them believe that they deserve to follow a better person and all of them were to weak to protest to Aerys, Robert, Cersei.

Barristan eventually did find a queen, worth fighting for, worth dying for.

So did Arys. He genuinely respects Princess Myrcella and was relieved when he left Joffrey.

We still don't know what Jaime will do in the end because so far he has not associated himself with any of the current monarchs. He regards Tommen and Myrcella, not as King and Princess but as his children.

I actually believe that GRRM deliberately had Jaime not thinking about Arys in SOS because he may think of him, once he discovers what happenned in Dorne. 

 

[Oakhearts head]

On 6/23/2016 at 3:27 AM, CJ McLannister said:

 

Sansa's an unreliable narrator.  If 4 of the 5 laughed, would she say they all laughed or single out the one who didn't?  Or was Aerys specifically named?

 

Nope, you're correct. Arys Oakheart wasn't specifically mentioned in the chapter. 

On 6/24/2016 at 8:41 PM, Danelle said:

I love the KG and I think that they really stand out as characters in the story.

There are definitely lots of parallels between Jaime, Barristan and Arys.

For one all of them believe that they deserve to follow a better person and all of them were to weak to protest to Aerys, Robert, Cersei.

Barristan eventually did find a queen, worth fighting for, worth dying for.

So did Arys. He genuinely respects Princess Myrcella and was relieved when he left Joffrey.

We still don't know what Jaime will do in the end because so far he has not associated himself with any of the current monarchs. He regards Tommen and Myrcella, not as King and Princess but as his children.

I actually believe that GRRM deliberately had Jaime not thinking about Arys in SOS because he may think of him, once he discovers what happenned in Dorne. 

Wow! A lot of parallels there that I never thought of. Very interesting. Thanks for that.

I certainly hope you're right about Jaime and Arys in the Winds of Winter. It seems strange to introduce Arys as a POV only for his fellow Kingsguard POV's (Jaime and Barristan) to never even have a single thought about him. Fingers crossed.

[Minstral]

I don't find it all that hard t believe that he would laugh at Barristan. If his character was or was not thought through at the time he wrote that scene is a matter of conjecture, he still fits in as a character that is easily influenced. Through his own POV and Sansa's we see that he is the only one who offered protests at beating her, but he still carries through. When he is with Arianne he is susceptible to her suggestions, because he succumbs to the pressures he feels in the moment. Now I don't believe that he was someone who actually found Barristan's dismissal truly funny, but that he did what he has been doing the entire time he is shown on page. He caves to social pressures when presented with conflict.

His last stand that lead to his death is actually something I find a little interesting though. He had expressed his indecisiveness in his thoughts, his inability to keep to his vows regarding Sansa and Arianne, and found himself somewhat lacking (even while he admitted that there was hypocrisy in his vows. So when he decides to stand his ground in the face of Hotah's spear men is he caving to social pressure (the noted history of hatred his house has for Dornishmen), or is he trying to cut to the heart of the matter by defending his charge? (honestly this thought process was probably clearer in my head than on the page).

[Runaway Penguin]

One part of Barristan's tirade was venting frustration on the state of Kingsguard (caused by a large margin by Robert's meddling). Though Kingsguard for life and in celibacy is a ludicrous idea (same as NW with celibacy - wonder why the author and so many fans have so much fascination with these institutions). Doubly ludicrous for Kingsguard as a lot depends on physical conditions. What if no war happens for some time and you suddenly have Kingsguard consist of seven knights who used to be dapper, but now just drink and eat and require breastplate stretcher?

[Ashes Of Westeros]

On 5/22/2016 at 2:09 AM, Oakhearts head said:

Wouldn't you think that Arys, who actually takes his job seriously and is consumed with being honorable, would have too much respect to laugh in the face of a guy who is essentially a living legend and who he probably grew up admiring?

Arys doesn't reflect on this in his POV so it is hard to say, and as I said this scene happened in a Sansa chapter.

I guess he took his job seriously enough and he died protecting Myrcella. But besides laughing at Barristan Selmy he used to beat Sansa too. And this isn't knightly behavior. One can argue that he had no other choice and that he beat her "lightly" and felt bad about it but it doesn't excuse him. Sure he is a better person than Meryn Trant, but it doesn't make him good person. He just isn't the worst.
I think the KG mirrors the NW in this case: once a honourable institution, now it is full of dubious characters.

[1000th Lord Commander]

2 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

One part of Barristan's tirade was venting frustration on the state of Kingsguard (caused by a large margin by Robert's meddling). Though Kingsguard for life and in celibacy is a ludicrous idea (same as NW with celibacy - wonder why the author and so many fans have so much fascination with these institutions). Doubly ludicrous for Kingsguard as a lot depends on physical conditions. What if no war happens for some time and you suddenly have Kingsguard consist of seven knights who used to be dapper, but now just drink and eat and require breastplate stretcher?

Roman Catholic priests have vows and celibacy in the real world, and there's a decent amount that would keep to those vows.

I always thought that the high amount of celibacy was much a effort to leave as many young women around for the elite to play with. It's a societal thing.

Even when there is a period of extended peace, there is still tournaments and the like, which would help keep and knights fit and able. Plus any decent KG would train much, to keep himself fit.

[Byfort of Corfe]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 7:47 PM, Oakhearts head said:

 

Keep in mind that Arys kept his celibacy vow for a full decade before being sent to Dorne, and it took Arianne Martel six months to seduce him. Six whole months. That is some serious blue balls.

I think Tyrion picked Arys to go to Dorne with Myrcella for good reason. He was the only trustworthy, honorable Kingsguard at the time (aside from an imprisoned Jaime). In the end, he did keep his vow in protecting Myrcella.

I like Balon Swann a lot, but agreeing to murder a child and place the blame on an innocent is pretty irredeemable even if it was a command from the Queen. 

 

There isn't a time limit on your vows, it doesn't say "resist for x amount of time, then it's okay".  And how did he protect Myrcella?  He became part of the conspiracy that led to having her ear sliced off.  I think that the whole Selmy episode is designed to show the degradation of the Kingsguard.  Of the old Kingsguard you have Jaime who while betraying his King and Oath at least did it for a good reason, to save Kings Landing and thousands of people.  Arys betrays his oath because he's getting some.  Selmy is a true Knight although it is true that he also betrayed his oath and his King and served King Robert.  But the Kingsguard before them, men like Sir Arthur Dayne were a different breed.  And now look at it, Balon Swann who will set up an ambush and murder, Ser Loras whose loyalty isn't to the King but to his House, Kettleblack who may not even be a Knight and the rest who are just useless, oh sure they can beat and threaten Sansa but they would pee their pants if they had to face Bronn in combat.

This is where, IMO, GRRM picks up on the Late Medieval degradation of Knighthood and Chivalry.  To the extent that it ever existed it truly broke down towards the end of the Hundred Years War and the Wars of the Roses.  And this is why Sir Thomas Malory wrote "L'Morte d"Arthur".  It was a call to Knights to return to the Code of Chivalry.  And that's what I think GRRM is acknowledging in his portrayal of the Kingsguard and Knights in general.  You have Dany, faced with the facts of Jorah's and Barristan's paths questioning Westerosi Chivalric ideals.  You have a Kingsguard now complete with Frankenstein Monster.  I don't think that Ary's laughing at Barristan is in any way out of character for this organization.

[estermonty python]

10 hours ago, Minstral said:

I don't find it all that hard t believe that he would laugh at Barristan. If his character was or was not thought through at the time he wrote that scene is a matter of conjecture, he still fits in as a character that is easily influenced. Through his own POV and Sansa's we see that he is the only one who offered protests at beating her, but he still carries through. When he is with Arianne he is susceptible to her suggestions, because he succumbs to the pressures he feels in the moment. Now I don't believe that he was someone who actually found Barristan's dismissal truly funny, but that he did what he has been doing the entire time he is shown on page. He caves to social pressures when presented with conflict.

His last stand that lead to his death is actually something I find a little interesting though. He had expressed his indecisiveness in his thoughts, his inability to keep to his vows regarding Sansa and Arianne, and found himself somewhat lacking (even while he admitted that there was hypocrisy in his vows. So when he decides to stand his ground in the face of Hotah's spear men is he caving to social pressure (the noted history of hatred his house has for Dornishmen), or is he trying to cut to the heart of the matter by defending his charge? (honestly this thought process was probably clearer in my head than on the page).

This is probably the best analysis so far.  It's overly simplistic and entirely defeats the purpose of GRRM's entire character structure to regard any character, especially a POV like Arys, as either "good" or "bad," "honorable" or "dishonorable."  We are all hypocrites, and Arys is no different - just because in his internal monologue he speaks admiringly of chivalric ideals doesn't mean he's actually an honorable guy, merely that he wants to be one in his mind.  I think all the time about how i'm going to be a productive worker, go to the gym, clean the house - that doesn't mean I actually DO any of those things.  In fact, we all have things we "want" but don't take actions consistent with those interests or values all the time - that's part of what makes us human, and what makes GRRM's character treatments of even minor characters like Arys so interesting.  

Bottom line, Arys thinks lots of noble thoughts, but all his actions are dishonorable - beating a little girl, sleeping with Arianne, participating in her plot to kidnap Myrcella, and yes, probably laughing at Barristan.  The only time he stands up to the crowd and actually does anything heroic is in his moment of death, and that was by far the dumbest thing he ever did.  Its a short but interesting character study of a flawed man, and it is, perhaps, an instant of GRRM showing us how a fundamentally decent character can do awful things (like beating Sansa), reinforcing the idea that not everyone who does bad things in this story is a moustache-twirling psychopath.

[Flavia Gemina]

I always thought of him as a coward. He just gives into peer pressure because standing up for what is right is too hard, like beating Sansa.

[Seams]

I agree with the comment so far that say Ser Arys, like other characters, is supposed to be imperfect. Every character has some tragic flaw. Some flaws are bigger than others. I also agree that we are supposed to compare the King's Guard with the Night's Watch on a lot of levels.

This is key, though:

On 6/22/2016 at 8:32 AM, Danelle said:

Actually I think that it was in COK when we get a glimpse to the man he really was.

Ser Arys offered his arm and she let him lead her from her chamber. If she must have one of the Kingsguard dogging her steps, Sansa preferred that it be him. Ser Boros was short-tempered, Ser Meryn cold, and Ser Mandon's strange dead eyes made her uneasy, while Ser Preston treated her like a lackwit child. Arys Oakheart was courteous, and would talk to her cordially. Once he even objected when Joffrey commanded him to hit her. He did hit her in the end, but not hard as Ser Meryn or Ser Boros might have, and at least he had argued. 

I think that this is the first time that Arys is distinguished from the rest of the KG and his displeasure with Joffrey is hinted. 

About the same time that Ser Arys is escorting Sansa to the pretend (and dismal) tournament on Joffrey's name day, Yoren is escorting Arya out of King's Landing disguised as Ary. So one is in pretend mortal peril and the other is in real mortal peril. Yoren cuts Arya's hair and he ends up hitting her (but not as hard as he could - he tells her ahead of time to be sure to cry out loudly) as punishment for attacking Hot Pie with her wooden sword. Arys hit Sansa when Joffrey ordered it, but not as hard as he could have.

If we're supposed to compare Yoren and Arys, the beheading of Ned Stark and the humiliation and dismissal of Barristan Selmy are probably supposed to be compared or contrasted. I'd have to take a look at the details of the two incidents, but one is at the order of Joffrey and the other is at the order of the Queen. Ned Stark was supposed to join the Night's Watch until Joffrey's change of heart while, by contrast, Selmy was being turned out of his brotherhood.

Yoren defends Gendry and Arya from the soldiers sent by Cersei, and sacrifices himself in the process. Arys doesn't protect Myrcella completely, as she is wounded by one of the co-conspirators (I wonder whether we are supposed to compare Darkstar and Hot Pie? That's a new parallel I hadn't considered.) and then dies a preventable death at the hand of someone who was not going to harm the princess.

There are a lot of princesses and damsels in distress in the two story lines - it's hard to know which ones are supposed to be compared. Is Arianne the one who puts Myrcella at risk, and is she therefore in the Cersei role? Is Arya supposed to be the equivalent of Myrcella? Both were supposed to be sort of hostages. Or were Arianne and Sansa the princesses, and Cersei should be compared to Prince Doran in these two scenarios?

Ser Dontos Hollard, whose life was spared by King Aerys at the request of Barristan Selmy, is demoted to fool at the tournament to which Arys escorted Sansa. Hollard also "pretend" hits Sansa when Joffrey orders her humiliated before the court, riding a hobbyhorse and breaking a melon over her head. Are we supposed to look for parallels between Arys and Dontos? Yoren and Dontos?

I suspect we are also supposed to contrast Ser Arys with Tyrion and the Hound. (One hint is Sansa using the phrase "dogging her steps.") Tyrion orders a stop to the beating of Sansa at the court and the Hound wraps her in Tyrion's cloak, iirc. I think we are being given an example of the contrast between Sansa's fairy tale notion of a "True Knight" (similar to the pretend Florian and Jonquil role playing she does with the drunken, lecherous and bribed Ser Dontos) and the behavior of a couple of guys who treat Sansa honorably but who are not knights. Sansa can't let go of the fairy tale and recognize that it's not ok when a man hits her.

To me, the evidence adds up that Arys was a good knight only when he existed in a world of pretend. When he was placed in a position of genuine combat, responsible decision-making and moral choices, he didn't know what to do and often seemed to make the wrong choice in spite of his inner ideals. He didn't understand when the game ended and the real challenges began.

Ser Barristan does understand the difference between real and pretend knighthood. He has his own acknowledged flaw: serving the usurper when he wished he had honored his commitment to the Targaryens. But Ser Barristan is the knight who will live in legends and song.

[BlueNightzx]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I agree with the comment so far that say Ser Arys, like other characters, is supposed to be imperfect. Every character has some tragic flaw. Some flaws are bigger than others. I also agree that we are supposed to compare the King's Guard with the Night's Watch on a lot of levels.

This is key, though:

About the same time that Ser Arys is escorting Sansa to the pretend (and dismal) tournament on Joffrey's name day, Yoren is escorting Arya out of King's Landing disguised as Ary. So one is in pretend mortal peril and the other is in real mortal peril. Yoren cuts Arya's hair and he ends up hitting her (but not as hard as he could - he tells her ahead of time to be sure to cry out loudly) as punishment for attacking Hot Pie with her wooden sword. Arys hit Sansa when Joffrey ordered it, but not as hard as he could have.

If we're supposed to compare Yoren and Arys, the beheading of Ned Stark and the humiliation and dismissal of Barristan Selmy are probably supposed to be compared or contrasted. I'd have to take a look at the details of the two incidents, but one is at the order of Joffrey and the other is at the order of the Queen. Ned Stark was supposed to join the Night's Watch until Joffrey's change of heart while, by contrast, Selmy was being turned out of his brotherhood.

Yoren defends Gendry and Arya from the soldiers sent by Cersei, and sacrifices himself in the process. Arys doesn't protect Myrcella completely, as she is wounded by one of the co-conspirators (I wonder whether we are supposed to compare Darkstar and Hot Pie? That's a new parallel I hadn't considered.) and then dies a preventable death at the hand of someone who was not going to harm the princess.

There are a lot of princesses and damsels in distress in the two story lines - it's hard to know which ones are supposed to be compared. Is Arianne the one who puts Myrcella at risk, and is she therefore in the Cersei role? Is Arya supposed to be the equivalent of Myrcella? Both were supposed to be sort of hostages. Or were Arianne and Sansa the princesses, and Cersei should be compared to Prince Doran in these two scenarios?

Ser Dontos Hollard, whose life was spared by King Aerys at the request of Barristan Selmy, is demoted to fool at the tournament to which Arys escorted Sansa. Hollard also "pretend" hits Sansa when Joffrey orders her humiliated before the court, riding a hobbyhorse and breaking a melon over her head. Are we supposed to look for parallels between Arys and Dontos? Yoren and Dontos?

I suspect we are also supposed to contrast Ser Arys with Tyrion and the Hound. (One hint is Sansa using the phrase "dogging her steps.") Tyrion orders a stop to the beating of Sansa at the court and the Hound wraps her in Tyrion's cloak, iirc. I think we are being given an example of the contrast between Sansa's fairy tale notion of a "True Knight" (similar to the pretend Florian and Jonquil role playing she does with the drunken, lecherous and bribed Ser Dontos) and the behavior of a couple of guys who treat Sansa honorably but who are not knights. Sansa can't let go of the fairy tale and recognize that it's not ok when a man hits her.

To me, the evidence adds up that Arys was a good knight only when he existed in a world of pretend. When he was placed in a position of genuine combat, responsible decision-making and moral choices, he didn't know what to do and often seemed to make the wrong choice in spite of his inner ideals. He didn't understand when the game ended and the real challenges began.

Ser Barristan does understand the difference between real and pretend knighthood. He has his own acknowledged flaw: serving the usurper when he wished he had honored his commitment to the Targaryens. But Ser Barristan is the knight who will live in legends and song.

Totally agree

in the words of Hotah, Arys is a boy, a grow man, but a boy still, he wanted to be honorable and a good knight, but he was not.

And yoren almost succeeded in his plan for spiriting arya away, if not for the the orders of cersei to to kill robert`s bastards, and therefore, gendry, yoren would had success in delivering arya back to robb..

I believe this is one of GRRM tropes subversion, the somewhat nasty looking, foul smelling night`s watch yoren ended up being much more heroic and honorable, keeping his faith to the end, and sacrificing himself to protect the innocent, and yet the good looking, young white knight is a hypocrite, incompetent fool.

which also echoes with the Hound`s Arc, being one of the few characters that actually act as a knight, even if in his misguided way,

[Oakhearts head]

Great analyses from BlueNightzx, estermonty python, Seams, Minstral. 

 

[Batman]

It seems out of character, but if I remember correctly there is a line in the books to the affect of "When the King laughs, the court laughs". Joffrey laughed, so maybe he was just being a sheep like the rest of them.