Buckwheat

On bullying in school

59 posts in this topic

8 hours ago, Targarien21 said:

I think that such problem can't be ignored by parents, even in that cases when bullying isn't dangerous for the kid's physical health. I remember my own experience, yeah, my classmated didn't kick me or smth similiar to it but I had a strong emotional trauma after that :( I didn't know how to communicate with other people and I had that strong thought that I'm nothing... It was very hard for me to overcome all that experience and even now when I'm in fact an adult person I still don't like to be in the work/studying communities -_- They always remind me of school and the bad atmosphere there.
The only thing which was good for me in that case - changing my school into the better ones. I think it's the best solution of this problem.

:grouphug:

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"Making children "return the favour" = creating more bullies. That is what we would want to avoid, not escalate the situation by having children ruining each other's stuff (which parents will then need to replace, and all of them probably cannot afford to buy a new pair of shoes or whatever every week) more, sticking more chewing gum in their hair and sending more degrading messages."

I agree it isn't an ideal thing to do, but it worked well enough for me. I didn't end up becoming a bully. I didn't screw with people who didn't screw with me, and I didn't screw with people who stopped screwing with me.
I also refused to comply with any attempts to make me replace anything. I told everyone straight up I'd just do it again, and why. I threatened to start doing it to anyone who attempted to interfere with my retribution. I ended up having to see a few doctors who analysed me and ended up supporting my position. That made the school get involved because they had no grounds to discipline me, and in the end the bullies had to leave me alone. The two who didn't learn and re-escalated ended up in juvenile detention and I never saw them again. They're most likely in prison right now.

I was a kid, being bullied by people much older than myself and my own age. I didn't get help or advice from anyone, and I won. Now I don't tolerate bullying in my presence. I will step in, even if I don't know the people involved.

This can't work for everyone no, but it can work if the school isn't fulfilling its responsibilities and the bullied kid has the necessary disposition to pull it off.

"That's because most people are stupid, unevolved neanderthals.  I'm not trying to be funny, it's a fact, IMO.  I certainly wouldn't do this."

I agree.

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Bullying is really unfortunate, but an important learning experience.

It's never straightforward.  I have 2 teenage girls who have both been bullied in some ways and have dealt with it differently.

Boys bullying girls is much more simple.  Its either the boys having a crush and dealing with it through aggression or it's based some sort of fear.  The latter could be insecurities because of looks, popularity, intellect.  Either way, it's easy to figure out and deal with through the parents or the school.  There's just less guilt (stigma?) and I know that is gender biased, but at the moment it's in my favor :P

When girls bully girls, you get into tricky territory.  This bullying is so subtle yet it can cause some severe long-term emotional scarring. You want to teach your daughters to stand up for themselves and to resolve conflict.  To build lasting relationships based on trust and respect.  And most importantly, to be able to discern who is true 

Parents can be so defensive and teachers tend to undermine the situation by being too official and not getting to the heart of the matters.  The only answer is to talk to your kids and truly understand what's going on and judge the time to get involved and to get others involved.  Easier said than done with teenagers, I know.

I haven't had to experience bullying extending through social media.  I hope I never will, as I don't think I would know what to do.

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On 5/24/2016 at 5:55 PM, Daecon Dayne said:

but in the vast majority of cases it's a matter of cool perspective and resisting the urge to believe that other people owe you any decencies.

I agree with most of what Theda has to say -- the kind of response you advocate isn't going to work for many seventeen-year-olds, and certainly isn't going to be effective when you're talking about seven-year-olds.

But I most disagree with the idea that it is wrong to believe "other people owe you any decencies." I believe profoundly that human beings DO owe each other respect and decency. Now, of course people should be taught that injustice will always exist in the world and they will not always get decency from others, and to the extent possible, should blame the perpetrators of the indecency rather than themselves. But that doesn't mean they were not owed decency in the first place.

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1 hour ago, Ormond said:

But I most disagree with the idea that it is wrong to believe "other people owe you any decencies." I believe profoundly that human beings DO owe each other respect and decency. Now, of course people should be taught that injustice will always exist in the world and they will not always get decency from others, and to the extent possible, should blame the perpetrators of the indecency rather than themselves. But that doesn't mean they were not owed decency in the first place.

So true.

I believe we each owe each other decencies.  Its just basic humanity.  I also believe in the right to expect others to respect your values. (edit: not to impose your values on others)

Yet I think this is a stretch goal.  There are many in the world who just don't give a crap.  Think about those people in the airport who let their kids run around and cause general havoc and mayhem... flash forward 5 years.

The only thing we can do is to believe we owe others respect.  Hopefully that follows on and is reciprocated and "paid forward" so to speak.

Edited by Stoned_Heart
clarity

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1 hour ago, Stoned_Heart said:

 

Boys bullying girls is much more simple.  Its either the boys having a crush and dealing with it through aggression or it's based some sort of fear.  The latter could be insecurities because of looks, popularity, intellect.  Either way, it's easy to figure out and deal with through the parents or the school.  There's just less guilt (stigma?) and I know that is gender biased, but at the moment it's in my favor :P

 

I don't think that's simple at all and I think it's horrible that boys being aggressive towards girls they liked is encouraged and that girls are encouraged to take it.  I'm not saying that is explicitly encouraged, that parents are lining up their boys and telling them to be aggressive to girls, but it's laughed off as cute or just what boys do such that boys aren't learning better ways to express their feelings and emotions.  Those boys eventually grow up to be men and the aggression towards women they like is no longer of the hair pulling variety.  

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1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I don't think that's simple at all and I think it's horrible that boys being aggressive towards girls they liked is encouraged and that girls are encouraged to take it.  I'm not saying that is explicitly encouraged, that parents are lining up their boys and telling them to be aggressive to girls, but it's laughed off as cute or just what boys do such that boys aren't learning better ways to express their feelings and emotions.  Those boys eventually grow up to be men and the aggression towards women they like is no longer of the hair pulling variety.  

No, please, that's not at all what I'm saying.

I don't think it's ok for boys to bully girls!!!  I don't think any bullying is ok.  I just feel that when boys bully girls, it's easier to figure out the root causes and deal with it.  It's easier being the parent of a girl to call the parent of a boy.  They accept that there is a problem and typically deal with it quickly and efficiently.  There is less shame for the girls to tell their parents and for the parents to get involved.

Girl bullying, whether directed at other girls or boys, is so much more complex and insidious

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1 minute ago, Stoned_Heart said:

No, please, that's not at all what I'm saying.

I don't think it's ok for boys to bully girls!!!  I don't think any bullying is ok.  I just feel that when boys bully girls, it's easier to figure out the root causes and deal with it.  It's easier being the parent of a girl to call the parent of a boy.  They accept that there is a problem and typically deal with it quickly and efficiently.  There is less shame for the girls to tell their parents and for the parents to get involved.

Girl bullying, whether directed at other girls or boys, is so much more complex and insidious

Oops, sorry, had missed your point.  This is an issue I've been dealing with recently so I'm finding myself too quick to "arrgggh smash" on this topic.

I definitely agree with what you're saying.  

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I'm so sorry that you have to deal with this, Pepper.

It's not something that I wish on anyone, and I've gone through a few rough years of it.  Love prevails.

 

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Should goverment of any country be blamed for this?

 

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1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

Should goverment of any country be blamed for this?

Well, someone has to. And I do believe that Serbian government should be blamed. Or at least, Ministry of Education.

What comes is not a script for episode of Black Mirror. Answering on the video of two boys beating a younger one, Minister of Education, on live national TV, started "explaining" how the beaten boy has a target on his forehead. The exact wording, IIRC, was "these small kids have "beat me" written all over their foreheads". When the interviewer and the rest of the guest in studio expressed their horror, he continued with his litany about how young minds work. Needless to say, he didn't offer anything. He was just saying that we have bullies in our schools, as it is the most normal and expected thing in the world. 

So, yes. Governments should do more in creating a society in which bullying is perceived as totally wrong.  

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11 hours ago, Risto said:

Well, someone has to. And I do believe that Serbian government should be blamed. Or at least, Ministry of Education.

What comes is not a script for episode of Black Mirror. Answering on the video of two boys beating a younger one, Minister of Education, on live national TV, started "explaining" how the beaten boy has a target on his forehead. The exact wording, IIRC, was "these small kids have "beat me" written all over their foreheads". When the interviewer and the rest of the guest in studio expressed their horror, he continued with his litany about how young minds work. Needless to say, he didn't offer anything. He was just saying that we have bullies in our schools, as it is the most normal and expected thing in the world. 

So, yes. Governments should do more in creating a society in which bullying is perceived as totally wrong.  

I know about that.

 

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In first grade, me and a couple of class mates got told off by a teacher for forming a gang of robbers (after all the cops from cops and robbers wanted to be robbers too) who imprisoned a couple of girls from our class in a playhouse during recess. At the time it seemed logical that we, as a bunch of robbers, had to abduct someone. But the teacher made it plain clear that playing means voluntary participation, so our gang dissolved and we startet playing football, this time without the girls.

Today, I'm grateful, that there was someone who told 7-year old me off at a pretty early stage.

Later, we moved several times and I always arrived in classes that had already formed and I was the natural outsider: I came late into the group, I have a slightly different name and social background and there was always someone - boy or girl - who played a game of good old social ostracism with me. Thankfully they never got an entire class of even a majority behind them. Also, I was lucky that with the exception of two single instances, I was never physically attacked.  I always had the verbal skills to retaliate with wounding remarks which drove off those bullies who weren't interested in a physical fight. And others probably, too. But I never aquired the social graces to become part of a clique.

My observation was always this: among boys, the bullying was much more physical - provocations, threats, beatings etc. whereas amongst girls it was more verbal: name calling, social ostracism (for example inviting all girls except one to their birthday party or wait until the victim goes to the toiled and then do the vanishing thing etc.). Hiding and breaking stuff was equally distributed.  

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Not just government, but society in general should be the one to promptly react to this. If members of a society are suffering undeserved and lasting pain, it's not only oppressed or oppressor group's problem which they should sort put between themselves, but the problem that deserves everyone's attention. I find this a good principle in general, and especially true when the victims are someones so vulnerable and easily damaged as children. So, yes, society should create a framework where bullying is seen as wrong and not acceptable, and react quickly when it happens.

The better and more interesting question is - how? It seems that many people here (myself included) have some experience with being bullied (and suffering horrific consequences), so I'd be interested in hearing ideas on how to combat it. If you were a victim, what action from an environment (peers, parents, teachers etc.) would have helped you the most? If you were the bully, which action would have made you reconsider and stop? I really believe bullying in general is a huge issue, but there has to be some kinds of tried and effective methods that work against it.

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On 09/01/2018 at 8:55 PM, Knight Of Winter said:

Not just government, but society in general should be the one to promptly react to this. If members of a society are suffering undeserved and lasting pain, it's not only oppressed or oppressor group's problem which they should sort put between themselves, but the problem that deserves everyone's attention. I find this a good principle in general, and especially true when the victims are someones so vulnerable and easily damaged as children. So, yes, society should create a framework where bullying is seen as wrong and not acceptable, and react quickly when it happens.

The better and more interesting question is - how? It seems that many people here (myself included) have some experience with being bullied (and suffering horrific consequences), so I'd be interested in hearing ideas on how to combat it. If you were a victim, what action from an environment (peers, parents, teachers etc.) would have helped you the most? If you were the bully, which action would have made you reconsider and stop? I really believe bullying in general is a huge issue, but there has to be some kinds of tried and effective methods that work against it.

In my experience, it isn't as simple as those two groups. Like in the media, you've often got a group of bullies, and the kids they pick on. I found things were much more fluid. For example, someone would pick on me. I got picked on for two main reasons- I was tiny, the smallest kid in the whole school, and I have a temper, it was easy to get a rise out of me. I would often try to deflect this by picking on someone else, someone fat or shy. My internal justification, as much as I bothered with one, was that I got worse than I gave. Which is of course pretty weak, when the people I'm bulling aren't the ones who are bullying me. But it was even murkier than this- sometimes someone would be your "mate" one week, but the next they would be picking on you, or you would be picking on them.

It's a good question, I don't have much on an answer. I'm kind of pessimistic on the issue, honestly. People like to say that all bullies are cowards, or are deeply insecure, but I think a lot of it is just that people enjoy expressing that kind of power over others, and children lack emotional development.

One little anecdote about being a bully- there was one kid at my primary school who was very weird, everyone picked on him. I watched some tv show about bullying, and felt really bad for him (I was about eight). So the next day, I went up to him and said "Hi, Jamie" and he replied "Hi, shithead" and started laughing. That definitely wasn't what happened on the tv show when they started being nice to the bullied kid. Oh well, I thought, I've tried.

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8 hours ago, mankytoes said:

In my experience, it isn't as simple as those two groups. Like in the media, you've often got a group of bullies, and the kids they pick on. I found things were much more fluid. For example, someone would pick on me. I got picked on for two main reasons- I was tiny, the smallest kid in the whole school, and I have a temper, it was easy to get a rise out of me. I would often try to deflect this by picking on someone else, someone fat or shy. My internal justification, as much as I bothered with one, was that I got worse than I gave. Which is of course pretty weak, when the people I'm bulling aren't the ones who are bullying me. But it was even murkier than this- sometimes someone would be your "mate" one week, but the next they would be picking on you, or you would be picking on them.

It's a good question, I don't have much on an answer. I'm kind of pessimistic on the issue, honestly. People like to say that all bullies are cowards, or are deeply insecure, but I think a lot of it is just that people enjoy expressing that kind of power over others, and children lack emotional development.

One little anecdote about being a bully- there was one kid at my primary school who was very weird, everyone picked on him. I watched some tv show about bullying, and felt really bad for him (I was about eight). So the next day, I went up to him and said "Hi, Jamie" and he replied "Hi, shithead" and started laughing. That definitely wasn't what happened on the tv show when they started being nice to the bullied kid. Oh well, I thought, I've tried.

That’s a very generous interpretation of having “tried.” Saying hi to someone? That’s not really trying. And it’s hardly surprising he didn’t respond immediately with gratitude and open arms. Do you know how often my interaction with bullies started with them being ‘nice’ and expressing interest in me? A hell of a lot. 

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2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

That’s a very generous interpretation of having “tried.” Saying hi to someone? That’s not really trying. And it’s hardly surprising he didn’t respond immediately with gratitude and open arms. Do you know how often my interaction with bullies started with them being ‘nice’ and expressing interest in me? A hell of a lot. 

I think you've missed the point a bit there, that bit in bold was meant to be seen with some irony. I'm saying the media makes bullying look like a simple issue. I think on the tv show I saw, they just started being nice to the kid and everything was solved. In reality, it's a lot more difficult. It's not like I was "his bully", I was more of a class clown figure. And I'm saying, like me, he wasn't a "good victim", as you generally see portrayed. He was rude and mean sometimes like the rest of us. Some people aren't particularly likeable in life. I've always rubbed up a lot of people the wrong way. The difference is often that, as a grown up, I can choose who I associate with. As a kid in a small village primary school, you have to hang around with everyone your age.

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19 hours ago, mankytoes said:

It's not like I was "his bully", I was more of a class clown figure.

Why do you think these are different? Do you think they're mutually exclusive? They're really not. 

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15 hours ago, mormont said:

Why do you think these are different? Do you think they're mutually exclusive? They're really not. 

There could certainly be some overlap, but a clown is not inherently a bully. In fact, the joke is usually at the clown's expense (of course, making fun of yourself is very different to making fun of others). The main adversery of a class clown is usually the teacher, and while that can be pretty twattish in itself, it wouldn't usually fall under "bullying".

I will say this- I don't think I was every more popular than when I was making fun of teachers. With the power dynamics in a school, at least the ones perceived by students, even a mediocre joke at a teacher's expense is likely to go down well.

I was this tiny kid, I always looked three years younger than my age. When you're fourteen, that's a lot of years. I couldn't fight back physically. I remember one time, this girl, literally for no reason at all, kicked in the testicles, hard. I was on the floor, crying, purely, I can only assume, for the rush of humiliating someone. All I had were my words.

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