ASoIaF and ancient mythology (spoiler)

[Angrivarius]

I wrote most of the following stuff two years ago, but i didn't finish back then because there was no time for it.  I decided to post my old thoughts now, because there are so many other people in the forum, that share similar ideas and most of it is just to obvious to be accidental. Many of the following issues have been mentioned in other threads, but hopefully not all! I made a new topic because the subject "parallels between ASoIaF and Celtic mythology" is very clomplex. The thread should also include Norse mythology. Some of my text might sound very confusing, its because it consists in parts of fragments and english is not my mother tongue, so I hope you parden the ridiculous condition of the text, its length, the incompleteness and the repetitions (you don't have to read it!):

The following theory compares AsoIF with the celtic mythology of Ireland and suggests to associate the different races in Westeros with different races that settled and conquered Ireland in ancient times. Some of the irish-celtic myth are found in other celtic and European tales as well.

Concerning the identity of the CotF, the similarities between them and the Sidhe have already been mentioned in the Heresy thread. Unfortunately I am not the best at interpreting things and may fail in the attempt to read the thoughts of GRRM in some or many points (fishing in the Black clouds of the Sidhe).
In my theory I suggest not only that the Sidhe were ancestors to the Idea of the CotF, I further propose to connect the Fir Bolg with the Others, and the Milesians with the First Man as well as the Andals. The Fomorians could be related to the mysterious force which causes the Winter in AsoIF.
In ancient time several peoples settled and invaded Ireland. They can be interpreted as different races, as well as they can be subject to the religion and spirituality of the following generations and settlers. Because of the complexity of the topic and the countless similarities that can be found, I focus on the episode until the Milesians invade Ireland, which would equal, from my point of view, more or less with the time when the Andals invaded Westeros. By focusing on the parallels I hope to gain knowledge about the history of ASoIF.

First the Fomorians - second the Nemedians (later divided into the Sidhe and the Fir Bolg) - last the Milesians

Fomorians: giants, serpants, winter, magic and lots of question marks
Nemedians (Sidhe and Fir Bolg): Cotf and the Others
Milesians: Andals/First Men or just Men

The Fomorians

The first who settled in Ireland where the Fomorians, therefore I start with them, maybe referring to the first race or creatures in Westeros. Its said that the Fomorians have been Tolkiens model for the orcs. I propose them to the model for the force behind the cold in AsoIF. The Fomorians are discribed as horrible, malformed giants or daemons, sometimes they have animal heads and they appear horned or reptilian. The Fomorians are associated with death, darkness and cruelty. They imposed tribute on the later arriving Nemedians, which were later  separated into the Fir Bolg (the Fir Bolg were enslaved by the greeks, but escaped and came back) and the Sidhe. The Fir Bolg got under the rule of the Fomorians, but the Sidhe could defeat them with the help of a magical artefact, which is forged through human sacrifice. The leader who led them (Fomorians and Fir Bolg) in the battle against the Sidhe was Balor. Balor or Balor of the Evil Eye is a one eyed demon and can be seen as a deity of death. He has a lot in common with Odin in the norse mythology. They both have only one eye (Odin exchanged his second eye against wisdom) and they both are related with death, war and magic.

The Three-eyed crow I think is a referrence to Balor aka the One Eyed Demon (leader of the fomorians) and to Tolkiens Sauron.

Winter

Winter is a symbol of darkness, death and magic and these are associated with the Fomorians. The Fomorians are described as horrible, malformed giants or demons, sometimes they have animal heads (referring to shamanism and maybe skin changing asoiaf) and they appear horned or reptilian. I find this description very interesting, because there are lots of parallels with creatures and tales in the North. Giants are mentioned as well as skinchanging can be found. Skinchanging can be associated with the Fomorians wearing animal heads (its said that this refers to shamanism). That they were imagined to be horned reminds me of the Horned King and the fact that they can appear in a reptilian form could be interpreted as an indication of dragons. I remember that the horned phenomena was mentioned in the Howl at the Moon thread as well.
The Fommorians are led by Balor, the one eyed demon who I suppose refers to the Three Eyed Crow (a thousand eyes and one) & maybe the FM / the Stranger. The Three Eyed Crow, the Faceless Man, and the Great Other also share similarities with Odin. Odin has two ravens (remember that the One Eyed Crow was connected with Bloodraven many times). The ravens are called Thought & Memory (this reminds me of the Weirwood Trees).

 

The Partholón's
The second to invade Ireland were the Partholón's, it is told that they defeated the Formorians in battle but died of a mysterious plague, which was brought over them through their leader Partholon, for murdering his parents.
(no parallel found yet)

 

The Nemedians

The Nemedians (Nemed means holy/privileged) were the Fir Bolg and the Sidhe/Tuatha Dé Danann before they separated (I propose the Fir Bolg refer to the Others and the Sidhe to refer to the CotF). After the People of Partholon disappeared, the Nemedians invaded Ireland (according to wikipedia they may have come with ships from the caspian sea). But after early progress they were defeated and later oppressed by the Fomorians. Hereinafter the Nemedians were separated. One part of their people was enslaved by the Greeks, another part went north and learned magic ( a third part of them settled in Brittany). The Fir Bolg, were the first Nemedians to come back to Ireland after they escaped from being enslaved be the Greeks, they made peace with the Fomorians and gained foothold. This is the moment where the Fomorians become rulers over the Fir Bolg. The Fir Bolg are then dominated by the Fomorians, these two parties form the forces of darkness and fight against the Sidhe. The Sidhe who were the second group of Nemedians, to come back Ireland again, landed at the Shore of Ireland, hidden in black clouds (could be referring to the fog in Bravos and the Ifequevron) and beat the Fir Bolg with magic.
In this first battle Nuada, the king of the Sidhe lost his arm, therefore he had to lay down his crown, until a new arm was build for him. In this time the half fomorian / half sidhe King "Bress" ruled, but when he was chased away by the Sidhe, the Fomorians upraised and demanded tribute from the Sidhe. This is when Nuada came back, with an artificial arm which was build for him (he even could use the fingers) and the battle between the Sidhe and the Fomorians took place. In this battle Nuada was killed by Balor (the One Eyed Daemon, leader of the Fomorians) with his eye (I think he definitely was an inspiration for Tolkien when he made up Sauron and we know that GrrM is influenced by Tolkien as well as by irish mythology), but the Sidhe won the battle and Balor was killed by his own grandchild Lugh who was half Fomorian as well. Lugh was also called warrior of light (I suppose Azor Ahai refers to Lugh).
The backround of the story about Lugh killing his grandfather Balor, is based on a prophecy which said that Balor will be killed by his own grandchild, therefore he hid his daughter Ethniu, but Cian (a Sidhe) got to her and she became pregnant and gave birth to Lugh, the Warriar of Light and defeater of the Fomorians. Ethniu is a Fomorian but she fell in love with Cian, who is one of the Sidhe.

The tales of the coupling between different races (changelings) are diverse in the irish tales and they are often associated with rapes as well (Rhaegar and Lyanna and other coincidences!). This part matches also with Bael the Bard. Other stories in AsoIF can be taken as related to these couplings such as the tale of the Night's King etc.

In this phenomena, I see a main theme of ASoIF, which is very dominant and which concerns the fact, that it is hardly possible to always differ between the races and spiritual forces in Westeros (cotf and the others, skin changing, forces of winter, Starks etc), as well as a differentiation between the races of Ireland is sometimes not possible. This is related to the myth of changelings, whose true identity is always uncertain as well (I will come back to this later).

For now I would like to come back to Cian, who is killed by the three brothers Brian, Luchar and Lucharba, who were Sidhes as well.
When Lugh, the Warrior of Light finds out that the three brothers killed his father Cian, he forces them to forge a magical artifact. The three brothers can complete the artifact but die of the wounds they suffered in the process, even their father Tuirenn dies in grief. But with the artifact comes the rule over the Fomorians. There is more than one evidence relating this artifact to Lightbringer. It is forged for the Warrior of Light and the death of the three brothers is it's sacriface (Nissa Nissa and the three attempts). A woman called Nessa is also appearing in the irish myth's but she is a Milesian (the next invaders), which points in the future from this point of view. She was mother to some changelings, as well as she is supposed to be a Milesian with ancestors of the Sidhe.

In the final battle between the Sidhe and the alliance of the Fir Bolg and Fomorians on the other side, the Sidhe could win with the help of Lugh, the Warrior of Light

After the Sidhe became the most powerful people in Ireland and defeated the Fomorians and the Fir Bolg, the Milesians showed up and invaded Ireland. (both Westerosi and the ancient Irish people can be interpreted differently, as different origins, as different races, as well as different spiritual forces and deities)

(Later in christian times the Sidhe/fairies/Elves were associated with evil and death in a spiritual way, because the old religions were bad from the POV of christians. This caused fairytales like the myths about the Banshee or dark elves, who steel children and replace them against daemons or malformed babies. In the german language the kinship between elves and dark elves is very obvious, an elf was called "Elb" and a bad elf was called "Alb". In german a nightmare is called Albtraum. "Alb" means bad-elf and "Traum" means dream and a dwarf was also called "Alb" back then. The bad elves are also related to Tolkiens Orcs (lat. Orcus/Underworld/dead) which were told to be of the same origin as the Elves in Silmarillion, but they mutated when they became slaves (like the Fir Bolg! and maybe the Others). Wikipedia mentions that the Fomorians could have been Tolkiens role models for the Orcs. but Tolkiens Orcs also share a conspicuous quality with the Fir Bolg. They have been separated from their tribe through slavory, mutated or turned into bad creatures and allied with the force of darkness.

 

The Milesians

The Milesians (who drove the Sidhe into their burial hills) are suggested to be equal to the First Man and the Andals, who drove the CotF out of Westeros. The tails about the Sidhe and the CotF in AsoIaF are allmost equal.

Here are some other fragments from my notes, relating to the burial hills, caves and the CotF & the Others:

If it comes to the Fir Bolg, that were according to the myths enslaved by the Greeks for an uncertain amount of time, there is a whole new cosmos of possible references opening up. After slavory the Fir Bolg were different from the Sidhe and turned evil (like with the cotf and the others). This would point to Valeria that shares one fate with the Minoan civilization on Crete (I thinks the doom of ancient Valeria refers to the outbreak of the volcano on Santori/Terra). The connections between the cotf, the moonsingers, the last hero and the Titan of Bravoos have been mentioned several times in the forum.

…But there are not only similarities between Sidhe and the CotF, but also with the Wildlings, especially the wildlings that walked with Gendel in the caves under the wall and never came back, which is also told about the Sidhe, the CotF and the Moonsingers in Bravos….

…it gets very interesting if it comes to Bran. The burrial hills are similar to the cave that Bran went to, where some of the last Greenseers are suspected. Bran discovers lots of bones, too)…

When the Milesians invaded Ireland the Sidhe stirred the sea (like the cotf, who were shattering the arm of Dorne), so the ships of the Milesians were driven back. This was the first attempt of an invasion and it failed, but soon after the milesian druid or bard Amergin played a significant role! He sung to ease the sea, the Sidhe had stirred (the sea could also refer to the later build wall, but thats just an idea).

The arrival of the Milesians opens up a whole cosmos of new possible equivalences und suggestions, some of them are referring to the changelings who crossed the tale from the beginning when Fomorians ruled the Island. The fact that the differentiation between Fomorians, Nemedians, Sidhe, Firborg and Milesians is sometimes not possible, is supposed to be based on blood relationship, spiritual connections, as well as it is through Changelings. That equals with the problems we have in case of the differentiation between the CotF, the First Man, the Others and spiritual forces in asoiaf.
After the invasion the Sidhe were suppressed by the Milesians. The Sidhe were pushed back and had to go into their fairy hills (burial hills, called Sídhe). This story is read as an evidence of human sacrifice by historians. Some stories tell the Sidhe have been gone to the Land of endless Youth, some stories tell they further live in the fairy hills and others tell that they come back in the night of the Samhain feast, which announces the beginning of Winter. This is very similar to what is said about the cotf (and the long night) in the books.

 

Changellngs and humand sacrifices

Human sacrifices can be found in many old cultures such as the ancient greeks, celts, teutons, skyths etc. They had the purpose to turn evil away, like demons, natural disasters, plagues and starvation, as well as they were practiced to receive luck in battle to consecrate a shrine or a new house or to tell the fortunes. The victims could be slaves as well as the favorite child of the leader.

Aspects of changelings and sacrifice can be found in the Norse Mythology too (the exchange between Æsir and Vanir and Odins Sacrifice). I assume that the One Eyed Crow (aka Balor or Odin) is behind the changelings, the human sacrifices and winter in general. There are some serious connections with the Norse mythology in asoiaf, such as the impression that the world is heading to a final battle which may refer to Ragnarök. The Æsir and Vanir fight against giants and Jörmungandr (a huge serpent, which could refer to the assumed (Ice?)-Dragon).
But the equivalences with the celtic mythology to the forces in Westeros are by far more obvious I assume. So I suppose the giants, the forces of Winter in general and the One Eyed Crow are allies in asoiaf, because they have a lot in common with the Fomorians, Balor and the Fir Bolg.

Couplings between different races, changelings, bastards, masks (Odin is also called Grímnir – the Masked) and skinnchangers apear in asoiaf as in irish and norse mythology.

There are lots of irish tales about illegitimate Kings or Queens being raped or pregnant through tricks, this is very similar in asoiaf. The subject of changelings also relates to Tyrion and his disability:

Quote

In 273 AC, Tyrion was born the third child of Lord Tywin and Lady Joanna Lannister. Joanna died giving birth to him, and as a result his father blames him for her death. Tales about Tyrion were spread immediately after his birth; At Oldtown, it was said that Tyrion was a monster, with a tail, monstrous huge head, thick black hair, a beard, an evil eye, lion's claws, with teeth so long he was not able to close his mouth, and both male and female genitals. It was said that Tyrion's birth was an omen to famine, plague and war, and the smallfolk named him “Lord Tywin's Doom” and “Lord Tywin's Bane”. King Aerys II Targaryen stated that Tyrion was a punishment for Tywin's arrogance,  and the same was said by begging brothers in Oldtown, stating that Tywin had made himself greater than the king, which was only allowed by a god.

(additionally Tyrion could be an another linguistic hint referring to Tuireann, the father of the three brothers in the irish myth (the role as a father can also be interpreted as a protector), who were turned into human sacrifices when they had to forge the magical artefact (Lightbringer).)

There are countless changelings in ASoIF, one is Jon whose Identity is questioned as well as he is a skinchanger.
Joffrey is a changeling as well as Tommen. Ramsey somehow is a changeling - he is a bastard and he reveals a very monstrous character, as well as many others, such as Aryia.

(I use the term changeling rather generous here)

The Others

The Others have a lot in common with the Orcs, the Fir Bolg, the Banshees/the Albs and with what I call dark elves. Some Examples:
- they are cruel daemons
- they steel children
- they are allies of the Darkness/Winter.

they might be led by a force that has not been presented yet, similar to the fomorians (could be the One-Eyed-Crow)

Spoiler

we only saw him dying in Brans vision!

 

The TV-Show now developes in other directions in some cases, for an example with the origin of the others and other stories like the one about the moonsingers, the last hero etc are probably not mentioned in the show, but there must be more to the Others than just

Spoiler

beeing created by beeing stabbed with a dagger by a CotF

I hope!

[Stark Loyal]

Fascinating theories, Angrivarius.  Since we know already that GrrM studied a lot of ancient history to design his story of Westeros, you have to figure he drew from these mythologies.

The parallels you make here align rather well.

[Angrivarius]

Yes, we know that GrrM studied ancient history, you can also tell some of the specific tales he studied, I think we all agree an that. To what an extent he takes over stories from ancient tales? I think in some cases he reffers to them to a quite a great extent! The question is, when is drawing on his own ideas, when is he reffering to ancient tales and when is he fusing different elements together. When the mythological elements are identified I think it becomes a bit easier to predict the developement of the story, but still you never know!

But for an example concerning the Balor allegory, it would be strange if he would just apply the superficial features without drawing on Balor's associations with death and evil, so I would be really surprised if Bloodraven would be just a good old magician beneeth the Weirwood tree, aiming for peace and happiness in Westeros, I think he somehow must be connected to the others, the long night and the cold.

Spoiler

Drawing on this I suggest he is not dead yet, or at least that we will hear from him againin the show

 

[Angrivarius]

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Timeline_of_major_events

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aos_S%C3%AD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir_Bolg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_%28Irish%29

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balor

 

[Angrivarius]

Here is a blog concerning the paralles between ASoIaF and Norse mythology. http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.de/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html

 

From my point of view the author treats both things to much the same and does not explain why he thinks that Bloodraven equals Loki or what Jaime and Tyr have in common really, but anyway I also believe that GrrM drew on Norse Mythology and that ASoIaF contains also an homage to Ragnarök.

I think the Three-eyed-crow rather equals Odin and Balor with his one eye, the connection to a tree and the relations to crows or ravens, but Loki is an interesting figure, being a changeling as well as him being the prototype trickster. I think the principle of a trickster is definitely present in ASoIaF quite prominentely. Tricksters are associated with warging and described as violating the social and natural order, they are described as animal like, godlike, half god like, deities or ghost like, one of their features is an ambivalent character. This lets me think of Ariya but also Jon and other characters in ASoIaF. If it comes to the Starks, they seem to be quite trickster family in general, being wargs (think of Fenrir) that swapped sides between North and South of the wall at least once (the tale of the Night's King, also think of the title Kings of Winter and their slogan winter is coming etc)

I like the associations of the worhship of rhollor with the greenseers / the forces in the north in the blog (there is a lot relating the CotF to Essos in ASoIaF), but also I find it quite contradictory since Rhollor stands for fire and is not associated with the cold. According to the Norse mythology the world ends in a huge fire, which is interesting with reference to the worship of the red priests! In the Norse tales the ice and fire giants (Muspellr & Hrímþursar) attack Asgard together. On the other hand in the worship of Rhollor the evil conterpart of Rhollor is called the Great Other (a god of darkness, cold, and death), which makes it not very plausible for me, that there should be an alliance of Rhollor, the Others, the Starks and Danny against the humans in ASoIaF, as the author of the blog predicts.

[Angrivarius]

As I mentioned the parallels between the sidhe and the CotF / the Others have been pointed out by many readers. Here is a quite new fan video that illustrates thiskinship well:

Still the relationship between the Others and the three-eyed-crow remains a mistery!

Spoiler

in the last episode we saw bloodraven disappear in Brans vision, when the "Nights King" enters his cave, but we don't know if he is really dead. If the three-eyed-crow is allied with the Others, it would be strange of him to warn Bran of the Others (that they now can enter the cave) and it would be strange that the Others attack the cave and chase Bran anyway, if Bran and Boodraven were on their side anyway!

I think there is something very strange and contradictory about GrrM's quote of the Celtic tales, there are some obvious similarities, but concernng the issue of the forces behind the long night, there are remaining many questions and it turns out to be very mysterious.

Anyone with ideas relating to that issue?

[ricardoromell]

GRRM's world is  a shade of grey. There is no bad or good. For eg.

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.wordpress.com/2015/06/27/lucifer-means-lightbringer/

This link will help understand how we in the real world look at lucifer as a form of evil and yet in GRRM's narrative supposed characters in the mold of him Light bringer/Lucifer are heroes.

Blood Raven hand holding Bran was probably to atone for the mistake committed in 'cross timeline warging'. BR has been missing since 252AC, the mad king Aerys was born in 244AC and BR arrested for the murder of Aenys in 233AC It could have been possible that. It is possible that BR tried to alter the timeline and possibly the mind of Aegon to regain his honor in years subsequent to his arrest between 233 to 259 i.e. during his regin, while Aerys was born and alive at that time. Thereby trying to influence the past, BR, accidentally unleashed dreams of burn them all.

Alternatively he simply broke the mind of Aerys, unintentionally with visions , thereby causing the starks great misfortune and the subsequent downfall of the Targaryens. something he hope Bran would set right progressively by influencing the future and not the past.