kissdbyfire Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Fanny said: I guess you missed the part where it says "this is not a debate thread". Trying to debate other users into correcting their complaints is certainly off-topic. It most definitely is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebourget Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 Know whats even worse than debating someone's criticism? Debating whether we're here to debate someone's criticism or not. Now that is a waste of space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninerings Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 On May 27, 2016 at 1:08 PM, Le Cygne said: Wights don't want to have fun? They prefer "Time After Time". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninerings Posted May 28, 2016 Share Posted May 28, 2016 19 hours ago, storm.131 said: Are you saying that Meera, Bran and Hodor could make it three leagues north and down a sinkhole but the wights couldn't? This. I didn't see them heading out of a sinkhole in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm.131 Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 10 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said: Your comment is that GRRM is silly for putting a back door on his cave? I'm puzzled because most of the rants here boil down to "D&D are dumb and they're ruining the books." Apparently your view is "D&D and GRRM, they're all dumb." No, I'm not saying GRRM and D&D are dumb. I'm saying, that like all human beings, they sometimes make dumb decisions and the back door was one of them. However, in GRRM's defence, as kissdbyfire mentioned earlier, the "back door" Coldhands referred to, may not be an actual door but just another way of saying "rear entrance". We don't know as this scene has not appeared in the books yet. As for your other comments about why there may be a need for doors on the cave, it's my understanding that the Children of the Forest ward the entire cave with their magic, not just the front entrance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Golden Wolf Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 On 5/27/2016 at 0:20 PM, Forlong the Fat said: "The back door is three leagues north, down a sinkhole." ADWD, Bran II Meera could have been using the term "back door" figuratively not saying that there is a literal back door made out of wood or metal. just like one would say that the entrance they came through was the "front door" despite the fact that there is no door to the cave. also why are you so adamant in actually defending this in this very thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tijgy Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 19 hours ago, Le Cygne said: Agreed, Sansa and Brienne are not supposed to be there, none of this will go down this way in the books, it's filler, and it's bad filler. Just to create faux tension, it's like, hey what if this or that happened, then what would happen? And an experienced showrunner would say, you know, let's not go there, it's going to mess everything up. Everything is just filler so they can reach their big fight at episode 9. (I really hope in the books BastardBowl never comes true) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquintus Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 One big issue that I have with the Others' origin story, and I would appreciate it if someone could give me a reasonable explanation, is if the Others were created as a biological weapon by the Children of the Forest to use against the First Men, then why is it that the Others and the "Great Other" are the enemies of R'hllor and the Red Priests? The whole R'hllor religion is based out of Essos (Asshai?) with almost no practitioners in Westeros. How the heck did the R'hllor religion even come into contact with the Others, and why would they care about them at all (much less make them the prime enemy of their religion) when they're part of a conflict that doesn't involve their religion at all and that's an entire continent away. Edit: Looking into it more, the Long Night and the invasion of the Others is something that effected the whole world apparently. Various different cultures (including the Rhoynar, Yi Ti, Ashhai, etc) all have myths concerning the Long Knight and the hero that defeated the Others. So it makes sense that the Others would be a villain for an Essosi religion. However, it doesn't make much sense that a weapon created for a fairly contained conflict in Westeros between the Children and the First Men would go so out of control that it would essentially envelope the whole world. The whole Long Night itself doesn't make much sense in the context of the Others as a creation of the Children. How the hell did the Long Night, a period of intense cold and darkness all over the world, even happen if the Others are just a weapon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 7 minutes ago, aquintus said: One big issue that I have with the Others' origin story, and I would appreciate it if someone could give me a reasonable explanation, is if the Others were created as a biological weapon by the Children of the Forest to use against the First Men, then why is it that the Others and the "Great Other" are the enemies of R'hllor and the Red Priests? The whole R'hllor religion is based out of Essos (Asshai?) with almost no practitioners in Westeros. How the heck did the R'hllor religion even come into contact with the Others, and why would they care about them at all (much less make them the prime enemy of their religion) when they're part of a conflict that doesn't involve their religion at all and that's an entire continent away. Well for the 8000 years the Others have existed until now, there was no contact. But we saw the moment when that changed, yet hardly anyone has noticed. Remember what happened when the NW were just about to get wiped out by the Wildlings? The cavalry arrived in the nick of time in the shape of Stannis' forces, along with Melissandre, flying banners of R'hllor. R'hllor's militant forces have arrived north of the Wall - that's never happened before, and they are pledged to completely destroy the Others. That's a gamechanger. Before that point we had no evidence that the Others had any thoughts about getting past the Wall and scouring Westeros, despite what some people assume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Quork Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 34 minutes ago, House Cambodia said: Well for the 8000 years the Others have existed until now, there was no contact. But we saw the moment when that changed, yet hardly anyone has noticed. Remember what happened when the NW were just about to get wiped out by the Wildlings? The cavalry arrived in the nick of time in the shape of Stannis' forces, along with Melissandre, flying banners of R'hllor. R'hllor's militant forces have arrived north of the Wall - that's never happened before, and they are pledged to completely destroy the Others. That's a gamechanger. Before that point we had no evidence that the Others had any thoughts about getting past the Wall and scouring Westeros, despite what some people assume. Isn't that rather missing out the whole opening sequence of the show (and the Prologue of the books) when you say there was no contact? Not to mention the Fist of First Men, Craster giving up his sons and that the Wildlings are terrified of them and know to burn the bodies of the dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 10 minutes ago, Ser Quork said: Isn't that rather missing out the whole opening sequence of the show (and the Prologue of the books) when you say there was no contact? Not to mention the Fist of First Men, Craster giving up his sons and that the Wildlings are terrified of them and know to burn the bodies of the dead? No, because they all involved the human NW ranging north of the Wall - despite the original Pact agreeing that Men would stay out of lands given to the Children (forests and the far north). Certainly the Others have been pushing south, forcing Mance and the Wildlings further south, but none of that proves that the Others were intending to cross the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 The show will never get into this and the books may or may not lead to this. Winterfell is ruled by the Starks, Kings of Winter. A Stark must be in Winterfell. They ruled as Kings since the defeat of the battle of Dawn against the Others, the raising of the Wall and Winterfell until Torhen, last King of Winter bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror after 7700 years of Stark Kings. I think when that happened, maybe, slowly, the Others who were not obliterated but exiled or hybernating in some safe, un-ventured area in the lands of always winter began to wake up and it has accelerated to where we are now in the books. The show is different and cannot be fully compared. I think over thousands of years, the Starks simply forgot how signifigant their monarchy was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywinelle Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 I'm not sure whether anyone else mentioned this among the looooooong list of things that were wrong with this episode, but it really bothered me that Bran's apprenticeship was cut so short. Such a huge build up to finding the Three Eyed Raven, and for what? A couple of trips back in time that remained unresolved. Whatever happened to story development? And don't get me started on the whole "The Night's King is coming for you Bran. Let's have a nap." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 5 minutes ago, Tywinelle said: I'm not sure whether anyone else mentioned this among the looooooong list of things that were wrong with this episode, but it really bothered me that Bran's apprenticeship was cut so short. Such a huge build up to finding the Three Eyed Raven, and for what? A couple of trips back in time that remained unresolved. Whatever happened to story development? And don't get me started on the whole "The Night's King is coming for you Bran. Let's have a nap." Well the rest of the course was rapidly downloaded using a superfast torrent. Bran will still need to unzip it and read the manual when he gets to Castle Black. Yeh, it was a bit naff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Quork Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 11 minutes ago, House Cambodia said: No, because they all involved the human NW ranging north of the Wall - despite the original Pact agreeing that Men would stay out of lands given to the Children (forests and the far north). Certainly the Others have been pushing south, forcing Mance and the Wildlings further south, but none of that proves that the Others were intending to cross the Wall. I was making the point against your saying there was no contact, but I see the original question was about contact between the Others and R'hllor so - my bad. However, whilst I see the point you're making (from the Others' pov), I don't think the original question is answered by your response. Why does R'hllor care about the Great Other/the Others? In this instance (the show), I suppose it could be said that Rhllorites know through their fires, etc., that the Others exist and that the cold is the natural enemy of fire, and that they bring annihilation in their wake. Of course, it hasn't really been set up in the show, but I suppose we might see an explanation yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywinelle Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 8 minutes ago, House Cambodia said: Well the rest of the course was rapidly downloaded using a superfast torrent. Bran will still need to unzip it and read the manual when he gets to Castle Black. Yeh, it was a bit naff! LOL judging by what we have seen thus far, it's just hours and hours of everyday life in the Winterfell courtyard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 4 minutes ago, Ser Quork said: I was making the point against your saying there was no contact, but I see the original question was about contact between the Others and R'hllor so - my bad. However, whilst I see the point you're making (from the Others' pov), I don't think the original question is answered by your response. Why does R'hllor care about the Great Other/the Others? In this instance (the show), I suppose it could be said that Rhllorites know through their fires, etc., that the Others exist and that the cold is the natural enemy of fire, and that they bring annihilation in their wake. Of course, it hasn't really been set up in the show, but I suppose we might see an explanation yet. We cannot know the thoughts of R'hllor - we know the thoughts of his devotees, Stannis and Melissandre. They are utterly intolerant of opposing belief-systems and are very explicit about Stannis being born to destroy the Great Other's minions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Quork Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 1 minute ago, House Cambodia said: We cannot know the thoughts of R'hllor - we know the thoughts of his devotees, Stannis and Melissandre. They are utterly intolerant of opposing belief-systems and are very explicit about Stannis being born to destroy the Great Other's minions. And indeed I did not say anything about "the thoughts of R'hllor" but of R'hllorites (his devotees). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 44 minutes ago, House Cambodia said: No, because they all involved the human NW ranging north of the Wall - despite the original Pact agreeing that Men would stay out of lands given to the Children (forests and the far north). Certainly the Others have been pushing south, forcing Mance and the Wildlings further south, but none of that proves that the Others were intending to cross the Wall. There's nothing in the Pact about the north or far north. AGoT, Bran VII "There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Cambodia Posted May 29, 2016 Share Posted May 29, 2016 Just now, kissdbyfire said: There's nothing in the Pact about the north or far north. AGoT, Bran VII "There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces. Right, but there are plenty weirwood trees north of the Wall, which the Red religion in their Taliban zeal would cut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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