CotF and the White Walkers

[Greg B]

Just now, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

 

That doesn't fit the timeline though

Can you elaborate?

[Nerevanin]

12 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

So the Others are a CotF WMD that went rogue.  I thought there might be connection there but I was not expecting that at all.  I guess that puts down the "Others built the wall" theory.

Maybe not. Maybe the CotF made WW and they used them as a weapon against the humans. When they realized that they couldn't win even that way, they made the WW build the Wall to keep the humans from there, from what they could see as their original home or something. After sometime the WW became to strong for the CotF to control and they turned against them, but they are there trapped by the Wall. I admit that I have no explanation of why they can't (or we think that they can't) cross it. Maybe later someone (Brandon the Builder, maybe?) changed the nature of the Wall, put some magic into it to keep the WW at the bay? I know, way too speculative but it's a possibility, I suppose.

[WildBlood]

So my question is, Was that WW that the CotF made in this episode the NK? I swear it looked like it didn't it? That wouldn't fit into other facts we know about him.

 

[Bran Snow]

2 minutes ago, Greg B said:

Seems likely to me that the CotF created the Others to defeat the FM. Then the Pact. Then sometime later the CotF's weapon went rogue, perhaps being "activated" by the Long Night (or perhaps their activation caused the Long Night).

You could be right. I just assume that there would have been some mention of the Others before the Long Night if they were used as a weapon before the pact. But then again, we are talking about a fictional world and it was 12,000 years, so who knows

[Greg B]

Isn't there mention of the CotF using "dark sorcery" and "human sacrifice" to defeat the First Men? And maybe we think it's just the flooding of the land bridge and the neck, but it was also or really about the creation of their weapon.

[Black Crow]

I have for some time had the suspicion that the history we are told is skewed and that the Long Night was what brought men to agree the Pact. Far from men and the three-fingered tree-huggers being allies when the Long Night happened, the thirteen heroes went out into the dead lands to cry pax.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

16 minutes ago, Greg B said:

Can you elaborate?

The pact was the conclusion of the Age of Dawn, which started the Age of Heroes.  the long night was during the age of heroes when we first see the white walkers which eventually lead to the creation of the wall.    So it's pretty safe to say the others were created during the age of heroes as a result of the Andals breaking the pact.  

 

But maybe they did create them before the pact but they were never seen of because they were north, I need to rewatch that scene.  

 

So I just rewatched and I think you may be right because Leaf says, we needed to defend ourselves, we were being slaughtered, our sacred trees being cut down.  

It specifically says in the history that the children took up arms because their trees were being cut down.  

 

So where are the others during the war with the first men?  

[Bran Snow]

18 minutes ago, Greg B said:

I guess history is written by the winners, so everything we know can really be made up

[Greg B]

2 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

The pact was the conclusion of the Age of Dawn, which started the Age of Heroes.  the long night was during the age of heroes when we first see the white walkers which eventually lead to the creation of the wall.    So it's pretty safe to say the others were created during the age of heroes as a result of the Andals breaking the pact.  

 

But maybe they did create them before the pact but they were never seen of because they were north, I need to rewatch that scene.  

Yeah, my theory is that the CotF actually used the weapon (the Others) they'd created effectively in the Age of Dawn -- effectively enough, at least, that they were able to avoid genocide and negotiate the Pact with the First Men. Only later, during the Age of Heroes and specifically the Long Night, did the Others go rogue and turn on their creators as well as men. So then the Last Hero seeks out the CotF, the creator of the Others who had already used this weapon against the First Men, to discover how to fight them.

[Dizzy Walker]

12 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

I need  to watch again what shard do you speak of? 

 

Also that part about only attacking Starks unless they are provoked is interesting.  Is it possible the Nights King is a Stark and just wants to turn his family so the Starks can rule the world?  

oopps, that wasn't very clear was it.. by  shard, I mean the shard they stuck in the human to turn him into the WW. I guess I already have it designated as "THE SHARD" in my mind, like when you say Khaleesi, everyone knows it means Dany.

 maybe the Nights King needs Stark blood for some purpose, like blood magic sacrifices, maybe change back to human, tear down the wall, take over the world, create a tanning lotion,  insert another reason here ______

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Balerion the black kat said:

He did not look like a willing sacrifice. I wonder if the CoF ever had control of them or was it bad from the beginning...if they ever did have control of them, how did they loose control?

I also wonder how true this is to the books...

Worth bearing in mind that Bran's visions in the book end with a man being sacrificed in front of the Winterfell weirwood

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

2 minutes ago, Dizzy Walker said:

oopps, that wasn't very clear was it.. by  shard, I mean the shard they stuck in the human to turn him into the WW. I guess I already have it designated as "THE SHARD" in my mind, like when you say Khaleesi, everyone knows it means Dany.

 maybe the Nights King needs Stark blood for some purpose, like blood magic sacrifices, maybe change back to human, tear down the wall, take over the world, create a tanning lotion,  insert another reason here ______

Looked like a piece of obsidian to me, so that which created can also destroy.  

[darksellsword]

are we overlooking something here, Bran was touched by the nights king his arm went an icy blue color and it marked him allowing the others to break through the barrier put up by the Cotf but what if it changes Bran into one of them also, The show has shown us that the wights turn crasters sons into WW just by touching them,could Bran be destined to be the great other?

[maegiithefrog]

7 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

 

That doesn't fit the timeline though

Agreed. The Pact happened ended the Dawn Age and ushered in the Age of Heroes when the FM and CotF lived in peace for thousands of years. The Long Night came after the Pact. The question is: When did the CotF create the WWs - before or after the Pact? Also didn't the Andals arrive after the Long Night? (Someone help me out here - I was just thinking maybe they created the WWs due to the Andal invasion (with whom they had no Pact), but wasn't sure if that jives with the timeline.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

3 minutes ago, Greg B said:

Yeah, my theory is that the CotF actually used the weapon (the Others) they'd created effectively in the Age of Dawn -- effectively enough, at least, that they were able to avoid genocide and negotiate the Pact with the First Men. Only later, during the Age of Heroes and specifically the Long Night, did the Others go rogue and turn on their creators as well as men. So then the Last Hero seeks out the CotF, the creator of the Others who had already used this weapon against the First Men, to discover how to fight them.

After rewatching that scene I believe you are correct because Leaf says we had to defend ourselves, we were being slaughtered, our sacred trees being cut down.  It says in the history that the reason the children took up arms was because the Weirwoods were being cut down.  

[Bran Snow]

1 minute ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Looked like a piece of obsidian to me, so that which created can also destroy.  

That's exactly how I saw it too, what creates destroys

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

2 minutes ago, maegiithefrog said:

Agreed. The Pact happened ended the Dawn Age and ushered in the Age of Heroes when the FM and CotF lived in peace for thousands of years. The Long Night came after the Pact. The question is: When did the CotF create the WWs - before or after the Pact? Also didn't the Andals arrive after the Long Night? (Someone help me out here - I was just thinking maybe they created the WWs due to the Andal invasion (with whom they had no Pact), but wasn't sure if that jives with the timeline.

 

What he is saying is maybe they were created before the pact and they were just dormant or too few, until the long night.  What we know is they weren't introduced to men until the long night, at least to men in the south.  Maybe way up north in wildling country they were around longer.  This is all very confusing and a certain author needs to put the Philly cheesesteak down and start writing.  

[Bran Snow]

4 minutes ago, maegiithefrog said:

Agreed. The Pact happened ended the Dawn Age and ushered in the Age of Heroes when the FM and CotF lived in peace for thousands of years. The Long Night came after the Pact. The question is: When did the CotF create the WWs - before or after the Pact? Also didn't the Andals arrive after the Long Night? (Someone help me out here - I was just thinking maybe they created the WWs due to the Andal invasion (with whom they had no Pact), but wasn't sure if that jives with the timeline.

I would say the Andals came after the long night. 

pact > long night > wall built (by bran the builder) > bran becomes first king of winter > king of winter (Theon Stark) fights againts andal invasion

[Dizzy Walker]

But is the long night a result of the WW or a separate thing? since I heard that the weird seasons were because of something being out of balance, not sure where I heard this.. maybe it was speculation and this is my bad and ignore this post but ...did the COTF make the long night by making the WW?

[Fez]

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been brought up...

For me, the biggest question is 'What is the Great Other/the Heart of Winter?' Is it just the first Other/White Walker that was created by the CotF (presumably the Night's King in the show canon at least), or is it some other force that corrupted the Others/WW to its side?

It sure looked like summer in that scene where the first WW was made, not winter. And if there is some great darkness that is an eternal struggle with R'hollor, that seems like a separate conflict from the fight between the CotF and the First Men. R'hollor isn't even the god of the First Men, so I don't see why or how it would get involved in a conflict they were in.