CotF and the White Walkers

[Greg B]

5 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

After rewatching that scene I believe you are correct because Leaf says we had to defend ourselves, we were being slaughtered, our sacred trees being cut down.  It says in the history that the reason the children took up arms was because the Weirwoods were being cut down.  

Right. We know the CotF created the Others as a weapon because they were being slaughtered by the First Men. When would this have been? Well, during the Age of Dawn, before the Pact. So they use their weapon during this 2,000-year-long war during the Age of Dawn and manage to avoid genocide and secure a peace (the Pact). Later, during the Long Night, here comes the Others again, only now they've turned against their creators as well. The Last Hero seeks out the CotF to learn how to defeat them.

The people insisting this "doesn't fit the timeline" seem to be suggesting that the CotF created the Others as a weapon to prevent their slaughter by the First Men, but then never used it for some reason. I'm saying: They used it, it worked, then it went rogue.

[Bran Snow]

2 minutes ago, Dizzy Walker said:

But is the long night a result of the WW or a separate thing? since I heard that the weird seasons were because of something being out of balance, not sure where I heard this.. maybe it was speculation and this is my bad and ignore this post but ...did the COTF make the long night by making the WW?

There is nothing saying what caused the long night that I know of. Westros has weird seasons that last different times. We do know that when ever the Others showed up, things started to freeze and get cold. So the Long Night could be because the Others invaded.

[maegiithefrog]

1 minute ago, Dizzy Walker said:

But is the long night a result of the WW or a separate thing? since I heard that the weird seasons were because of something being out of balance, not sure where I heard this.. maybe it was speculation and this is my bad and ignore this post but ...did the COTF make the long night by making the WW?

Seems that they're linked. In the scene where the first WW is created, everything is green, lush. Then you see that same place with the weirwood tree/stones in the Land of Always Winter. I think that the CotF magic in creating the WW inadvertently precipitated the Long Night and the jacked up seasons in Westerns since.

[GeorgeIAF]

I wonder if the moment when the COTF made the WW coincided with the Dragons being born in Valyria ... magic entering their World.

[Bran Snow]

Now Essos has stories of the long night too. Rhoynar tells of a darkness that froze the Rhoyne and Yi Ti has a stories of the sun hiding for a lifetime. So did the CotF's creation effect the whole world?

[maegiithefrog]

15 minutes ago, Greg B said:

Right. We know the CotF created the Others as a weapon because they were being slaughtered by the First Men. When would this have been? Well, during the Age of Dawn, before the Pact. So they use their weapon during this 2,000-year-long war during the Age of Dawn and manage to avoid genocide and secure a peace (the Pact). Later, during the Long Night, here comes the Others again, only now they've turned against their creators as well. The Last Hero seeks out the CotF to learn how to defeat them.

The people insisting this "doesn't fit the timeline" seem to be suggesting that the CotF created the Others as a weapon to prevent their slaughter by the First Men, but then never used it for some reason. I'm saying: They used it, it worked, then it went rogue.

Got it, certainly plausible! I'll probably take the convo off on a tangent here, but it seems to me the ancient FM houses should have record of this. It makes me think of the Royce words, "We Remember." Is this what they're supposed to remember? I'm hoping Sam finds something about this in The Citadel.

[maegiithefrog]

3 minutes ago, Bran Snow said:

Now Essos has stories of the long night too. Rhoynar tells of a darkness that froze the Rhoyne and Yi Ti has a stories of the sun hiding for a lifetime. So did the CotF's creation effect the whole world?

Good point. I think I should have said "Planetos" rather than "Westeros."

[Tyrek Lannister]

4 minutes ago, Bran Snow said:

Now Essos has stories of the long night too. Rhoynar tells of a darkness that froze the Rhoyne and Yi Ti has a stories of the sun hiding for a lifetime. So did the CotF's creation effect the whole world?

The analogies between The Wall and The Five Forts, the Lands of Always Winter and the Grey Waste are definitely there.

[Greg B]

8 minutes ago, GeorgeIAF said:

I wonder if the moment when the COTF made the WW coincided with the Dragons being born in Valyria ... magic entering their World.

Seems like Valyrians finding dragons was ~3,000 years after the Long Night.

Edit: Rogue apostrophe

[Bran Snow]

1 minute ago, Greg B said:

Seems like Valyrians finding dragons was ~3,000 years after the Long Night.

Edit: Rogue apostrophe

to be fair,  that's when they found them and not when they were created. Now, I don't think the WW being created had anything to do with dragons being born

[GeorgeIAF]

Also, i always thought that the line from the trailers "They have no idea what's going to happen" was spoken to BR by Bran. Now i think it's either Benjen or another character ... it would be pointless being delivered to Meera.

[House Toad]

20 minutes ago, Fez said:

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been brought up...

For me, the biggest question is 'What is the Great Other/the Heart of Winter?' Is it just the first Other/White Walker that was created by the CotF (presumably the Night's King in the show canon at least), or is it some other force that corrupted the Others/WW to its side?

It sure looked like summer in that scene where the first WW was made, not winter. And if there is some great darkness that is an eternal struggle with R'hollor, that seems like a separate conflict from the fight between the CotF and the First Men. R'hollor isn't even the god of the First Men, so I don't see why or how it would get involved in a conflict they were in. 

Same question asked. I couldn't comprehend the showing when not using a CotF in that creation? If the Great Other has greater powers, also using vision, immune to fire, their returning numbers are coming form, when there was a single sacrifice shown and there are rings and groves of heart-trees? Leading to speculation the corruption came from it not being a CotF. Couldn't the sacrifice create the BR as well as he is entombed in heartwood, however that could be really stretching this paradox?

I don't why the Andals worshiping the old gods at peace with the CotF possibly after the precautionary wall and watch was formed so they wouldn't return, later conquerored by the Targeryen's are formulating into something else unexplained?

[CrypticWeirwood]

34 minutes ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Also, i always thought that the line from the trailers "They have no idea what's going to happen" was spoken to BR by Bran. Now i think it's either Benjen or another character ... it would be pointless being delivered to Meera.

Well, it still could be as you had thought, but that seems unlikely. I wonder who will get it.

[desire]

11 hours ago, ummester said:

Only the Nights King can turn human babies into White Walkers, coz he has that obsidian shard in his heart (he's like Iron Man :D). White Walkers can raise dead humans as wights (which are scared of fire, but White Walkers aren't).

Also, even though White Walkers can be killed with dragon glass, I doubt the Nights King can. He's different.

Ye... Good on ya. 

[Lord Godric]

Does all of this fit with the timelines from the books?  For some reason I thought the Others in the books predated the invasion of the the First Men. 

[Greg B]

Just now, Lord Godric said:

Does all of this fit with the timelines from the books?  For some reason I thought the Others in the books predated the invasion of the the Andals. 

They do, in both the books and the show.

[JonisHenryTudor]

7 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Um, it's just been revealed that the Others are nothing more than a weapon of distruction that its creators lost control of. There's no question of them being "good" in any sense, though you might make a case for them having a righteous cause against CotF.

Now it also makes much more sense that CotF in the books were interested in the Targaryens. They need Fire to beat their Ice creation, because they alone don't seem to be strong enough anymore.

I don't think that is necessarily the question. How are men like Ramsay, Roose, and Walder any different? Give each a burst of magical power, and you would probably see similar effects. Ramsay is already a nightmare without magical power. The Lannisters? The Targs? How are any of these different. The Targs subdued populations with Dragons. If the Others are machines of destruction, what makes the likes of Ramsay, Walder, Euron, etc any different? Is it because they share bread ever once in awhile? 

 

Like Ummster, I do not think it is quite as clear cut. Right now the Others appear to be a threat, but how is Westeros going to react when three large dragons enter the realm. And then what happens when someone refuses Dany? 

[CalvoHobbo]

 

1 hour ago, maegiithefrog said:

Agreed. The Pact happened ended the Dawn Age and ushered in the Age of Heroes when the FM and CotF lived in peace for thousands of years. The Long Night came after the Pact. The question is: When did the CotF create the WWs - before or after the Pact? Also didn't the Andals arrive after the Long Night? (Someone help me out here - I was just thinking maybe they created the WWs due to the Andal invasion (with whom they had no Pact), but wasn't sure if that jives with the timeline.

That's a really good point, and may be the reason why we have the distinction between the Old Gods and the New, and particularly the enforcement of the New Gods as south of the "North." Maybe this is a more important reason for the phrase "The North Remembers" because they don't necessarily remember that House Stark who they pay homage, but more importantly, "The North Remembers the Pact" and the pact was made between some of earliest Starks and the Children, therefore, the Starks rule the North.

Also,

1 hour ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

After rewatching that scene I believe you are correct because Leaf says we had to defend ourselves, we were being slaughtered, our sacred trees being cut down.  It says in the history that the reason the children took up arms was because the Weirwoods were being cut down.  

Do you think that HBO deliberatly designed the Children's costumes to look like they were made of sticks and leaves? What I'm getting at is, what the Children are actually directly, physically part of the WierWoods, or created from them? 

[Lord Godric]

3 minutes ago, Greg B said:

They do, in both the books and the show.

Sorry, didn't mean Andals, meant First Men. 

[Bran Snow]

2 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

Sorry, didn't mean Andals mean First Men. 

In the books, the first mention of the Others is during the Long Night. This is 4000 years after the pack.