CotF and the White Walkers

[Bran Snow]

Of course that doesn't mean that they weren't already created. There is just no reference to them before the Long Night.

[Greg B]

Ah, okay.

Books Thus Far: First appearance of the Others is during the Long Night, about -8,000.

Show: CotF created the Others to battle the First Men, sometime between -12,000 and -10,000.*

* Leaf tells Bran the CotF created the Others because they were being slaughtered by the First Men. The above dates are roughly the period of the 2,000-year war between the FM and CotF.

 

[CalvoHobbo]

1 hour ago, maegiithefrog said:

Got it, certainly plausible! I'll probably take the convo off on a tangent here, but it seems to me the ancient FM houses should have record of this. It makes me think of the Royce words, "We Remember." Is this what they're supposed to remember? I'm hoping Sam finds something about this in The Citadel.

Exactly

[Lord Godric]

2 minutes ago, Bran Snow said:

In the books, the first mention of the Others is during the Long Night. This is 4000 years after the pack.

Well then that still doesn't make sense, why would the Others first show up after being at peace with the First Men for 4000 years.  Unless we're supposed to believe that the children made them during the war with the First Men and the Others did nothing for 4000 years, until the Long Night. 

[Greg B]

1 minute ago, Lord Godric said:

Well then that still doesn't make sense, why would the Others first show up after being at peace with the First Men for 4000 years.  Unless we're supposed to believe that the children made them during the war with the First Men and the Others did nothing for 4000 years, until the Long Night. 

That's exactly what I've been saying.

1. CotF create the Others to fight the First Men.

2. The Others fight the First Men.

3. The CotF and FM make the Pact.

4. The Others go rogue, turn on CotF and First Men alike --> Long Night.

[Lord Godric]

1 minute ago, Greg B said:

That's exactly what I've been saying.

1. CotF create the Others to fight the First Men.

2. The Others fight the First Men.

3. The CotF and FM make the Pact.

4. The Others go rogue, turn on CotF and First Men alike --> Long Night.

But there is no reference to the Others fighting the First Men before the Long Night. 

[Bran Snow]

3 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

Well then that still doesn't make sense, why would the Others first show up after being at peace with the First Men for 4000 years.  Unless we're supposed to believe that the children made them during the war with the First Men and the Others did nothing for 4000 years, until the Long Night. 

Of course that doesn't mean that they weren't already created. There is just no reference to them before the Long Night. Maybe some Maeters forgot to add that chapter in the history books

[House Toad]

15 minutes ago, CalvoHobbo said:

 

That's a really good point, and may be the reason why we have the distinction between the Old Gods and the New, and particularly the enforcement of the New Gods as south of the "North." Maybe this is a more important reason for the phrase "The North Remembers" because they don't necessarily remember that House Stark who they pay homage, but more importantly, "The North Remembers the Pact" and the pact was made between some of earliest Starks and the Children, therefore, the Starks rule the North.

Also,

Do you think that HBO deliberatly designed the Children's costumes to look like they were made of sticks and leaves? What I'm getting at is, what the Children are actually directly, physically part of the WierWoods, or created from them? 

Didn't the Targeryens break the pact upon conquering the Andals and destroying the heart-trees? Only behind the wall and possibly under different Starks, was the pact upheld in previous Winters. The pact possibly a treaty keeping Winter away or WWs returning, maybe some kind of sacrifice/prayers to the Old Gods heart-trees or CotF?

[Lord Godric]

Just now, Bran Snow said:

Of course that doesn't mean that they weren't already created. There is just no reference to them before the Long Night. Maybe some Maeters forgot to add that chapter in the history books

If the Others had previously been known to the First Men, had fought with the children or against the First Men before the Long Night, Martin would have told us.  We have to remember that the history of the world is told to us mainly to serve the purpose of the current narrative.  Now, that doesn't mean that the Children didn't create the Others before the Pact, but I refuse to believe that the First Men just forgot about fighting the Others.  That then begs the question what the Others were doing for 4000 years in the North. 

[Bran Snow]

3 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

But there is no reference to the Others fighting the First Men before the Long Night. 

I agree that its odd that there is no reference of the Others before the Long Night. You have stories of the CotF using magic to break the stepstones and flood the neck and stories of them warging animals to fight the First Men but no stories of deadly ice men.

[Greg B]

6 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

But there is no reference to the Others fighting the First Men before the Long Night. 

Show or book? In the show, we now know the CotF created them to fight the First Men because they were being slaughtered. Unless you think the CotF created the weapon and then did not use it, the Others fought the First Men. In the books to this point, we know the CotF used "dark sorcery" and "human sacrifice" in their war against the First Men. The specific events we know of are the sinking of the Arm or Dorne and the flooding of the Neck. If the show is following the broad strokes of the books as planned, we'll learn more about the magic the CotF used to fight the FM...

ETA: I don't find it odd that our "history" of ~10,000 years ago is fragmentary, if not mythical. I also don't find it odd that the author would keep this piece to himself for a big reveal later on...

[oursisthefury69]

14 hours ago, TheTowerOfJoy said:

I've long suspected that the White Walkers were a curse by the Children as a result of men breaking the Pact.  Their "goal" seems to be to eradicate humanity.  Perhaps Bloodraven (the Three Eyed Raven) has been keeping the White Walkers at bay, and perhaps with his age his powers were in decline and with Bran's birth and ascension of his power the 3ER was no longer to keep them at bay, thus why the White Walkers are on the move again, and why they're after Bran before he gets powerful enough to stop them. 

You bring up an important point in it being a "breaking of the pact."  As the books have a period of peace between the children and first men before the Long Night; And the show sort of at least implied via lack dialogue/explanation that they did it just to stop men, which would imply they "created" the Others upon men coming to Westeros.  Now whether this is just a show change/simplification is one question, another possibility could be the children indeed created them upon firs men arrival but they weren't loosed or themselves didn't make themslves a factor until a period after the peace pact.  Frankly there is a way this could line up with the books to an extent as there's reasons to believe (which frankly deserve a thread of their own and I wont get into here) that the Children werent an entirely united front and that some of them may have wanted to deal with men differently than some of them wanted too.

Your bit on Bloodraven's powers declining however  and the need for brans ascension are to my mind though more than likely incorrect (at least with regard to the actual reality of the books/logical storyline progression).  BR has been there for less than 100 years, so there'd need to be some ongoing process of greenseers switching of spots for thousands and thousands of years.  There's not a ystem of greenseers going to watch over the Others to prevent their return, that's what the Wall is for.  The reason for the Other's reemergence is going to be rooted in something like Aerys killing the Starks, breaking the pact of ice and fire.  If your theoretical scenario with Br keeping them atbay was the case than they'd pop up like once a lifetime while one greenseer is being swapped out for the other.  DOnt get me wron i def think Bran needs to be there for some specific reason ect but I dont think BR's weaking powers are whats leading to their rise in power, and i dont know thats theres even any reason to believe his powers are declining

[oursisthefury69]

11 minutes ago, Bran Snow said:

Of course that doesn't mean that they weren't already created. There is just no reference to them before the Long Night. Maybe some Maeters forgot to add that chapter in the history books

Maesters forgot to write about the Others existing for 2-4 thousand years while never being seen or known of?  Did they also forget to write about the tree falling in the forest with nobody being around to here it fall?

[Bran Snow]

1 minute ago, oursisthefury69 said:

Maesters forgot to write about the Others existing for 2-4 thousand years while never being seen or known of?  Did they also forget to write about the tree falling in the forest with nobody being around to here it fall?

It was more meant as a joke

[Fez]

13 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

But there is no reference to the Others fighting the First Men before the Long Night. 

But if the Great Other is something separate from the Night's King, or if they otherwise gained additional powers once they went rogue, its entirely possible that they weren't recognizable as Others prior to the Long Night. When the Night's King was created his eyes went blue, but that's all we know. He was apparently created in summer, not the dead of winter, it could be that the Others didn't have winter powers when first fighting the First Men on behalf of the CotF and so aren't remembered as the same.

Or it could be that we aren't supposed to take all the legends at face value. Old Nan gave a lot of interesting back story but we don't know how much was gospel truth and how much was warped by time

[Greg B]

It also makes sense that the First Men knew the CotF created the Others -- that's why the Last Hero went to the CotF to find out how to destroy them. I don't think we know whether the CotF had ever deployed the weapon against the FM -- maybe just the threat of it was enough to secure the Pact.

In general, it seems most people have a better opinion of the Citadel's history dating back 10,000 years than I do. But going with that, if we allow that the maesters should have known the CotF created the Others, or that the FM fought the Others during their war with the CotF, are there any reasons they would suppress this knowledge?

[House Toad]

I thought the BR was a deity of Greenseers living lifetimes for 1000 of years until fully entombed and rooted into the heart-tree? The children and their descendants live longer, Old nan and the witch down south. Possibly always a greenseer of the BR among the CotF? After any sacrifice? His power was strong enough for Hodor, dubiously any other gems, like the previous vision of the tower, for all that was and is now.

Hodor could not return into Walder because the BR died from the Nightking, while warged into Hodor, creating the keys to the door, past is now the present matrix. The Nightking marked Bran seeing through Veil to sat nav the wormhole in present time from past bones, using a power that can be explained from their evolutionary link, but Bran was not evolved at that point, when the Nightking marked Bran the BR needed to transfer power, because the BR was also going to die creating the current paradox.

100 years is seemingly an age of bambo, in other tortures for the BR?

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

1 hour ago, Greg B said:

Right. We know the CotF created the Others as a weapon because they were being slaughtered by the First Men. When would this have been? Well, during the Age of Dawn, before the Pact. So they use their weapon during this 2,000-year-long war during the Age of Dawn and manage to avoid genocide and secure a peace (the Pact). Later, during the Long Night, here comes the Others again, only now they've turned against their creators as well. The Last Hero seeks out the CotF to learn how to defeat them.

The people insisting this "doesn't fit the timeline" seem to be suggesting that the CotF created the Others as a weapon to prevent their slaughter by the First Men, but then never used it for some reason. I'm saying: They used it, it worked, then it went rogue.

Here's my question about that though, it's said a few times that the long night was the introduction of the white walkers to the race of men.  But you are saying they were introduced to men before the long night.  How can that be?

[Lord Godric]

32 minutes ago, Greg B said:

Show or book? In the show, we now know the CotF created them to fight the First Men because they were being slaughtered. Unless you think the CotF created the weapon and then did not use it, the Others fought the First Men. In the books to this point, we know the CotF used "dark sorcery" and "human sacrifice" in their war against the First Men. The specific events we know of are the sinking of the Arm or Dorne and the flooding of the Neck. If the show is following the broad strokes of the books as planned, we'll learn more about the magic the CotF used to fight the FM...

ETA: I don't find it odd that our "history" of ~10,000 years ago is fragmentary, if not mythical. I also don't find it odd that the author would keep this piece to himself for a big reveal later on...

From a purely mythical standpoint, sure.  From a storytelling standpoint, no. That is information Martin would include alongside other pieces of information about the Children and Others to set up his future plot (if that was his intent). 

[Mourneblade]

Remember we know very little of the Others and their motives. We do know the CotF were quite capable of using the nuclear option, and that they did use human sacrifices. So it is not a stretch to believe that the CotF created the WW in their war with men. 

Now there is that matter of 2,000-4,000 years before the Long Night. A couple of possibilities could explain that. The CotF could have thought they destroyed them all, but didn't, or that they were all destroyed by the First Men, and weren't. They could have then hibernated, or could have been frozen away, who knows, what we do know is that something triggered their actions in preceding the long night, just as something has triggered their actions now. What that trigger is is unknown at this time. We know they have been procreating for quite a while through Crastor's babies, and that they have been stealing the Wildling's babies, for some time, if the stories are to be believed.

We also do not know the capabilities of the First Other either. I doubt he is a full greenseer because then he would know his own fate, and would know the fate of the world, and would have known that the long night would have ended, by their defeat. We also do not know how long it took for his powers to manifest. Did his understanding of all his powers develop, or were they fully recognized upon his creation. Is he capable of speech? Obviously he became self aware, and the Others with him also have shown their own Intelligence, and the ability to understand and make choices. They also have shown the ability to negotiate with Crastor being the present day example of that.

Additionally with last night's episode we see the danger of trying to spy on them through the powers of magic. It is entirely possible they could have been idle for long periods of time, but also had the means to retaliate against those who would trying and view them as Bran did. We know they have a mastery over ice magic and the ability to create their own weapons from it. We know they can affect the weather, and it is possible that the sun could actually kill them, or weaken them, since they change the weather to block out the sun and drop the temperature below freezing by choice (They do not freeze the babies that are offered obviously, and babies would die quickly if they were subjected to the Freeze that the Others bring with them).

We also do not know their purpose. The protector of the trees theory does not resonate as they have shown to be indiscriminate on who they kill or not kill, with the exception of the pact made with Crastor. If that was the case they would have left the Wildlings alone, as they have shown to be beholden to the Old Gods. No something has triggered this response, just like it did 8,000 years ago. They obviously were not wiped out, and if they wanted to "Protect" the trees they would not have waited 8,000 years.

Anyways we have a lot more to discover about the Others before we can determine their motives, other than destruction, and pro creation. Especially what has triggered this build up and the invasion to come.