House Toad Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Just now, lojzelote said: Hard to say, but I like to believe that there's something more to the Faceless Men than means for Arya aquiring superpowers. The theories about Dany and Jon fighting each other are bogus. Ultimately they are meant to complement each other and cooperate in reaching their common goal. It's just that some people still haven't made peace with the idea of a girl being a military leader and riding the biggest dragon, therefore then need to make her into a bloodthirsty and mad antagonist. *yawn* Who knows Targeryens didn't have the same rules as the rest of society leading to other militia? Although when one is un-dead and the other cannot bring life, snow and fire seems just a little bit mad as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, lojzelote said: The theories about Dany and Jon fighting each other are bogus. Ultimately they are meant to complement each other and cooperate in reaching their common goal. It's just that some people still haven't made peace with the idea of a girl being a military leader and riding the biggest dragon, therefore then need to make her into a bloodthirsty and mad antagonist. *yawn* I don't think it's got anything to do with the girl being a leader and more to do with the issue that Dany was always destined to be a destroyer. I think this comes from a misinterpretation of the word 'song', in modern terms we tend to think of it as hopeful, even romantic - but ASoIaF is a song like Beowulf, or the poetic Edda, just spruced up for a modern audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the tower of albion Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Hodor&Bran said: Wow didn't think of Saberhagen. Great series that I read years ago. Hmmmmmm Didn't stargate rip this plot off? Is there nothing original out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, ummester said: Um, trees are life? Trees are life that we know of. If a tree falls in the forest does anyone care - the Others do Serious question, is it worth saving the human race if it means destroying the Earth? I think this is the type of question that is being asked with the Others. Besides all of this, if you re watch the scene, the CotF start attacking the Others before the Others attack them. The Others and their zombies just stand there - kind of like what Ned's dad said to him - try not to get into any fights but if you do, make sure you win The thing is, while exposed to eternal winter those trees are likely to turn into dead husks sooner or later. The Others may physically protect those dead husks, but what good is it for the Children? Anyway, the Children attacking the Others first speaks for itself, doesn't it? They clearly consider the Others to be a greater threat to nature than humans. There's not much to discuss here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDot Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Hodor's Aunt said: we don't know. In the books however there is one character that is heavily implied of being a CotF south of the wall. Who is that? I just started to recap because since last year I did not read the forums or books so I can't remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 1 minute ago, lojzelote said: The thing is, while exposed to eternal winter those trees are likely to turn into dead husks sooner or later. The Others may physically protect those dead husks, but what good is it for the Children? Anyway, the Children attacking the Others first speaks for itself, doesn't it? They clearly consider the Others to be a greater threat to nature than humans. There's not much to discuss here. The trees are magic, they bleed red blood and act like telephones - who knows if they will survive or not. And the CotF have said they don't have much time left in the world. Who will be left to stop the human destruction of magic on Planetos once the Others are gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, ummester said: I don't think it's got anything to do with the girl being a leader and more to do with the issue that Dany was always destined to be a destroyer. I think this comes from a misinterpretation of the word 'song', in modern terms we tend to think of it as hopeful, even romantic - but ASoIaF is a song like Beowulf, or the poetic Edda, just spruced up for a modern audience. A "song" in GRRM's terms equals to "story" or "tale". The word you're looking for is "dance". And of course, Dany's character goes through different stages of growth. Remember her HotU version in Show verse? She turns from the Iron Throne willingly to go the Wall. She may come to Westeros with the intention to conquer, but later on she will undestand her main purpose is to protect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, lojzelote said: A "song" in GRRM's terms equals to "story" or "tale". The word you're looking for is "dance". And of course, Dany's character goes through different stages of growth. Remember her HotU version in Show verse? She turns from the Iron Throne willingly to go the Wall. She may come to Westeros with the intention to conquer, but later on she will undestand her main purpose is to protect. We'll have to see how it ends up - but I don't know exactly who Dany is going to protect, I don't think this is a story where the people shake hands and unite for some greater good at the end because such an ending would be entirely out of place for the rest of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, ummester said: The trees are magic, they bleed red blood and act like telephones - who knows if they will survive or not. And the CotF have said they don't have much time left in the world. Who will be left to stop the human destruction of magic on Planetos once the Others are gone? That's doubtful. Nothing. But who says that magic is necessary? Magic gone may equal to a more boring world, but that's it. There would be many magic-less species left. It's certainly the better alternative to the Others-dominated world, where the only ting left would be the Others themselves (besides rocks and snow). Not to mention, there are human magicians, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Just now, ummester said: We'll have to see how it ends up - but I don't know exactly who Dany is going to protect, I don't think this is a story where the people shake hands and unite for some greater good at the end because such an ending would be entirely out of place for the rest of the story. Who would Dany protect? The Westerosi, her new people. She wants to be a good queen and protect her people. She has shown as much in Meereen. There's also her nephew, one Jon Snow. You may have heard of him. You know, the sweet-smelling blue rose from her vision. Let's remember Tyrion's words that Daenerys Targaryen is first and foremost a rescuer and she will never leave her brother's son in peril. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Just now, lojzelote said: That's doubtful. Nothing. But who says that magic is necessary? Magic gone may equal to a more boring world, but that's it. There would be many magic-less species left. It's certainly the better alternative to the Others-dominated world, where the only ting left would be the Others themselves (besides rocks and snow). Not to mention, there are human magicians, too. Well, that's the thing, either the bittersweet will be humans coming out on top and magic going from the world - nothing but petty humans bitching over metal chairs for the future of Planetos. Or, more interestingly, it could be magic uniting to put humanity in it's place, they type of ending we don't often see in modern fantasy but did exist in pagan mythology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Toad Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 It is becoming delirious again and the shroom's shown are causing blurry toadstools. Fire created Snow's undeath, the CotF created the Nightking. Is there any reference I missed between any later songs? Has the FM a product of seemingly ice, and Arya, brought the doom of Valyria? Did Dragonglass bring obsidiansteel to the CotF causing their corruption? Has the formula changed, in the above differences? Can Snow be a dragon and yet also a Wight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Just now, lojzelote said: Who would Dany protect? The Westerosi, her new people. She wants to be a good queen and protect her people. She has shown as much in Meereen. There's also her nephew, one Jon Snow. You may have heard of him. You know, the sweet-smelling blue rose from her vision. Let's remember Tyrion's words that Daenerys Targaryen is first and foremost a rescuer and she will never leave her brother's son in peril. You have interpreted the books and show far more romantically than me, I'm afraid Rescuers and idealists can turn sour when it fails - the conversation Tyrion and Dany had with Hizdar last season should show clearly that neither of them can really think critically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, ummester said: Well, that's the thing, either the bittersweet will be humans coming out on top and magic going from the world - nothing but petty humans bitching over metal chairs for the future of Planetos. Or, more interestingly, it could be magic uniting to put humanity in it's place, they type of ending we don't often see in modern fantasy but did exist in pagan mythology. I suspect that's what will happen, though it makes me sad, too. If you want the other kind of story, I recommend Robin Hobb's The Realm of Elderlings book series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, ummester said: You have interpreted the books and show far more romantically than me, I'm afraid Rescuers and idealists can turn sour when it fails - the conversation Tyrion and Dany had with Hizdar last season should show clearly that neither of them can really think critically. Let's wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 15 minutes ago, lojzelote said: If you want the other kind of story, I recommend Robin Hobb's The Realm of Elderlings book series. I haven't read that, though I have heard about it. I think it's similar but slightly different to where I envisage ASoIaF as going. From what I understand, RoE is kind of nihilistic, whereas I thought ASoIaF would spin things to be anti human but still positive. I think there is a difference between concluding everything sucks, or that just people suck Misanthropy can be positive, from a certain point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemon Targaryen Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 Nice, crazy thread. I'll try to keep the cray cray going. So the song is about the death of magic? Bran is the key player because, once he fully develops his powers, he can somehow un-create the Others? The death of 3ER will be the supercharge to the Others and lead to the fall of the Wall? In that sense, Dany/Tyrion/Jon are just the foil to the Others, holding them off enough until Bran can un-create the Others and create some new pact? Bran will eventually die. Somehow this makes it more likely that Dany and Jon will actually together but both somehow tragically die, in a plot that somehow involves Arya, leaving Tyrion as King and Sansa as Queen (final ironic reunification of Targaryen, Lannister, Stark, and Riverlands as the final survivors ... with Varys probably (there is still some reveal with him, likely Blackfyre) with Jaime (as Tyrion's Hand) and Brienne together? That leaves 5 main characters who survive by my count (Tyrion, Sansa, Varys, Jaime, Brienne) ... there must be two more for the sake of symmetry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aemon Targaryen Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 I mean, those final survivors will pick up the pieces in the post-magic world. That is the world for Tyrion's and Varys's wisdom is made. This also makes sense of Sansa's development ... she is becoming tough and wise, suitable to be Queen in a post-magic world in a way Dany can never be. Also Jon's thing with the wildling and her death is obviously going to foreshadow either Arya's or Dany's death or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Aemon Targaryen said: That leaves 6 survivors ... there must be one more. Only if you subscribe to the faith of the 7. Magic totally winning and there could be no human survivors at all, or only those that fully accept the old ways of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, Aemon Targaryen said: I mean, those final survivors will pick up the pieces in the post-magic world. That is the world for Tyrion's and Varys's wisdom is made. This also makes sense of Sansa's development ... she is becoming tough and wise, suitable to be Queen in a post-magic world in a way Dany can never be. Also Jon's thing with the wildling and her death is obviously going to foreshadow either Arya's or Dany's death or both. We are seeing a similar thing - but wanting a different conclusion. In LotRs, it ended with magic receding into the West and the rise of humans. I want more than just a gritty version of that, I would like to see that flipped on it's head - this being the story where magic comes back and humans recede into the East. Imagine Westeros becomes like Europa in 2010 - all of these other continents belong to you, but not this one - magic lives here, now fuck off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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