Discussing Sansa XXIII: Lady Stork and her flock

[RoamingRonin]

Sansa sends Brienne to Riverrun. Someone on this forum spoiled it for me (it's an avocado, thanksssss!). Littlefinger is obviously trying to remove her protectors and make her vulnerable and Sansa is playing into that trap. I wish Sansa could see through that and guard herself accordingly. 

And then Sansa says something along the lines of.... traitors to House Stark should hang? Are we getting Lady Stoneheart this season in the form of Sansa Stark? Or was that just a nod to the books?

[GeorgeIAF]

She lied because LF is not someone trustworthy so mentioning his name at the meeting wasn't a good move.

[tormund's beard]

don't get me started with this, first we have more teleportation, then he gets to live...

yeah hard to believe you would let the guy (who pretty much sold you to a people-skining rapist) walk away just like that. maybe sansa can't kill him but she has brienne t-100 of tarth right beside her and ready to smash fools.

[joaozinm]

Whats is LF plan? He had Sansa, she was a puppet on his hands. Then he plans to deliver her to be raped. She escapes without achieve anything else. LF then offers her an army and begs a pardon, that would be part of plan to put her agsnt Jon? But Jon was already doing nothing..

What sense that play made?  Sansa likes LF - He gives her to be raped - Sansa hates LF - He begs her pardon because ???? what is he trying to accomplish here?

[Good Guy Garlan]

I'm gonna give D&D the benefit of the doubt and think (hope?) that Sansa is playing the long game with LF. We don't know if show!Royce was on board with the whole march North operation, but I'm gonna assume that's on LF's pulling the strings. Sure, Sansa doesn't know that, but she probably realizes LF has a lot of clout in the Vale, so she probably needs him alive for now, if only to make sure the Vale armies don't leave. 

Also, LF's advice about going to the Blackfish was actually a good one, so Sansa was smart to send someone she trusts to Riverrun. 

But it would be all kinds of terrible if Sansa truly let him get into her head after all the shit he's pulled with her. 

[Xcorpyo001]

Ohhh boy, you have to be certifiably insane to use the words player and Sansa in the same sentence.

LF: I want to make it up to you by giving you an army twice the size of anything Ramsay can have at his command, no strings attached

Sansa: Hard pass.

LF/Brienne/Cersei/Marg/Dany/Ellaria/Tommen/Moonboy: 

Mace Tyrell: “I’m sorry that my mother, the Queen of Thorns, can’t join you in this exercise, but the stupidity of that answer was so great, her poor old heart just exploded from shock. She will be missed.”

The Lord Defender of the Vale is her cousin. A guy that likes her. So does lord Royce. All she had to do was go to them and she could have circumvented LF completely. Or accept his help now, and find out a way to stab him in the back later. But nooo, that would mean that she can actually plan ahead a move or two, and we can’t have that.

Ahhh, and let’s not forget LF’s parting line about her half brother. So, last episode it was all laughs and she convinced Jon to fight for Winterfell. One chat with LF later, she is all lies, calling Jon a bastard and trying to get power for herself.

We have last episode. You’re the son of the last Warden of the North. Northern families are loyal. They’ll fight for you if you ask.

And we have the next episode, after she had a chat with LF. No, but I do(have Stark name). Jon is as much Ned’s son as Ramsay is Roose Bolton’s.

She already is looking for a way to stab Jon in the back, and get more power for herself. But the only reason Jon is contemplating doing this is because she pushed him into doing it in the first place.

She could have tried her games with anyone. But she is doing it with the only person that trust her implicitly, her brother. Ohhh, and her pride in not accepting LF help and the Vale troops probably signed Rickon’s death sentence. And raised the chances of Jon dying during the battle against a bigger enemy force. Way to go Sansa, real playa’. After all, both Jon and Rickon have to kick the bucket in order for you to became queen inn the North. Not even Cersei or Ellaria actively plotted against their own flesh and blood. Not without a good reason, not one as pedestrian as greed and thirst for power. Well, there was a guy that did just that. Ramsay Bolton. Aka the father of her future child(she was laying it thick about how Ramsay wanted to make sure she gets pregnant with his heir).

And her ideas during the planning scene. Actually thinking that  the Karstarks might turn to her side because she’s a Stark, lol. I liked how Davos was so polite in shutting down all her silly ideas. Others might have used harsher words. And mentioning the Blackfish. Knowing that the only source of information is LF. The guy she didn’t trusted with the Vale troops, that would have helped her anyway. After all, SR is her cousin, while the Blackfish is her distant uncle. And the army at Riverrun. The guy probably has soldiers only to keep the castle, not spare thousands to send on a suicide mission through the Twins and Moat Cailin, both in the hands of the enemy, and both though to be impregnable in a direct battle from the south(the ironborn came from the north). I guess they’ll just teleport lol.

That smile at the end of the planning session. Ha ha ha, I lied to my brother. I’m such a playa. It’s sad to see her so easily manipulated by LF. And from all the enemies in the world, she has to start her machinations against her own flesh and blood. I have one word for that. Pathetic.    

[GeorgeIAF]

I think Sansa is doomed.

[Florina Laufeyson]

 

"Looking for a way to stab Jon in the back?" Goddamn, the Sansa hate is astronomical still in this gods forsaken fandom.

3 hours ago, bb1180 said:

It seemed to me that her motivation for lying wasn't about Jon or any of the others, but rather that she doesn't trust Littlefinger at all and doesn't want his help or his involvement in any way. 

 

 

 

That, and she doesnt want others knowing LF is involved because...

30 minutes ago, GeorgeIAF said:

She lied because LF is not someone trustworthy so mentioning his name at the meeting wasn't a good move.

This. Saying "oh yeah, i met with Littlefinger and he said a bunch of stuff about Vale armies and told me about the Blackfish!" would be fucking stupid as fuck. She knows damn well no one can trust that guy and shes struggling with whether or not she wants to believe what he said to her. It was bloody common sense. 

 

(ugh my post broke pretty hard, so i gotta reply to the bottom quote up here) 
i agree with this, and im pretty sure this is what they were going for.

15 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

I'm gonna give D&D the benefit of the doubt and think (hope?) that Sansa is playing the long game with LF. We don't know if show!Royce was on board with the whole march North operation, but I'm gonna assume that's on LF's pulling the strings. Sure, Sansa doesn't know that, but she probably realizes LF has a lot of clout in the Vale, so she probably needs him alive for now, if only to make sure the Vale armies don't leave. 

Also, LF's advice about going to the Blackfish was actually a good one, so Sansa was smart to send someone she trusts to Riverrun. 

But it would be all kinds of terrible if Sansa truly let him get into her head after all the shit he's pulled with her. 

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[Newstar]

13 minutes ago, GeorgeIAF said:

I think Sansa is doomed.

Really? What gave you that impression?

If she does go against Jon for realsies, for whatever reason, I'd say Sansa's days are numbered. I don't think we're anywhere near that point yet, though.

13 minutes ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

i agree with this, and im pretty sure this is what they were going for.

The Inside the Episode indicated that Sansa DID leave LF alive because she was thinking of the long game, and Littlefinger DOES still have a hold on her. 

As for Sansa lying to Jon, it was made pretty clear in the scene with Brienne that she lied because she doesn't trust him. Sansa having no answer to Brienne asking her why she lied to Jon if she trusts him suggests that she doesn't in fact trust him...which is not surprising, of course, but it had nothing to do with Sansa believing that LF's intelligence wouldn't be believed or (as others have speculated) wanting to protect Jon from LF's malevolence. Those would have been good reasons to lie, but that's not why she did it. The dialogue made that very clear.

[GeorgeIAF]

I did get negative vibes when she was dismissing LF, i won't be surprised if LF will get rid of her. In my opinion, he's a sociopath, incapable of developing emotions.

[tallTale]

LF captures Sansa on her way to river run, and someone , maybe arya comes to eventually kill littlefinger ?

[Anythingatall]

Loved Sansa this week.  The first time in book or show I enjoyed her character. 

I have no problem with her lying to Jon, I was surprised to see the comments here, I understood it as her manipulating LF and keeping him onside.  He is useful to her, I just thought she lied to Jon because he wouldn't get it and that's fine with me.

 

 

This. Saying "oh yeah, i met with Littlefinger and he said a bunch of stuff about Vale armies and told me about the Blackfish!" would be fucking stupid as fuck. She knows damn well no one can trust that guy and shes struggling with whether or not she wants to believe what he said to her. It was bloody common sense. 

 

 

Yeah, this.  

[Wilnova]

1 hour ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

This. Saying "oh yeah, i met with Littlefinger and he said a bunch of stuff about Vale armies and told me about the Blackfish!" would be fucking stupid as fuck. She knows damn well no one can trust that guy and shes struggling with whether or not she wants to believe what he said to her. It was bloody common sense.

Why is it 'stupid as fuck'? She is trusting LF's information and sending Brienne there. So what's wrong with sharing the source of her info and her own opinions on LF itself. She is either being very patronizing towards Jon and Davos and acting as if they can't deal with that info sensibly or she is keeping it to herself for some other reason.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

As for Sansa lying to Jon, it was made pretty clear in the scene with Brienne that she lied because she doesn't trust him. Sansa having no answer to Brienne asking her why she lied to Jon if she trusts him suggests that she doesn't in fact trust him...which is not surprising, of course.

But why does Sansa not trust him? That's the confusing part for me. What does she think Jon would do that would be betraying Sansa's trust? I am not very clear on this. She demanded that he go fight against the Boltons. She pushes the notion that the North will support him as Ned's son. She is the one who is pushing this idea of Jon as Warden of the North. Jon clearly trusts Sansa.

Does she think that Jon will hand her over to the Boltons or some such shit?  Makes no sense. This is the girl who thinks that the KarStarks are still loyal, but she does not trust Jon?

I think it's more than just about her trusting Jon. I think LF's jab about Jon being her half brother hit home. Remember everyone giving her startled looks when she proclaimed that Jon does not have the Stark name, but she does? Plus she is all for getting a Tully army that's loyal only to her. I think Jon should be more careful about trusting Sansa rather than the other way around. She just blatantly lied to him and withheld information. Considering that he was also betrayed by those close to him, it looks like he has not learned his lesson. Unlike Sansa.

[Newstar]

17 minutes ago, Anythingatall said:

Loved Sansa this week.  The first time in book or show I enjoyed her character. 

I have no problem with her lying to Jon, I was surprised to see the comments here, I understood it as her manipulating LF and keeping him onside.  He is useful to her, I just thought she lied to Jon because he wouldn't get it and that's fine with me.

 

From the Inside the Episode, D.B. Weiss said that if Sansa were a "clean, pure Stark" she wouldn't have lied to Jon, meaning of course that she isn't a "clean, pure Stark" anymore...They appear to be tying her decision to lie to Jon with Littlefinger successfully corrupting her and the hold Littlefinger has on her. It might have been a sensible and prudent decision, but that's not what the writers wanted us to take from it.

[Anythingatall]

On 5/23/2016 at 7:34 AM, Newstar said:

From the Inside the Episode, D.B. Weiss said that if Sansa were a "clean, pure Stark" she wouldn't have lied to Jon, meaning of course that she isn't a "clean, pure Stark" anymore...They appear to be tying her decision to lie to Jon with Littlefinger successfully corrupting her and the hold Littlefinger has on her. It might have been a sensible and prudent decision, but that's not what the writers wanted us to take from it.

Could you give me the full quote because not being clean and pure does not imply Littlefinger corrupted her.  I suppose it could but the simpler and more logical interpretation would be that all that she has seen and done has made her less naive and more guarded, 

 

EDIT - Nevermind I found it.  What a shame.

[Raksha 2014]

How are Bran or Arya still "clean, pure Stark"s?  Arya is killing people she doesn't even know for her training to become a paid killer; Bran just sacrificed Hodor's entire life since childhood to save his own (and possibly Meera's if he's even aware of him).  Their hands aren't clean either.  That doesn't mean that I condone Sansa lying to Jon.  I believe she has been corrupted by Littlefinger, or is in the process of being corrupted.  Sad.  We had one episode of her rediscovering her inner Stark and reuniting with her once-disdained brother in love and trust, and that appears to be compromised; since she can now lie easily to the brother who has agreed to raise an army at her command.  At least Sansa made the cloak for Jon, supposedly like the one their father used to wear - perhaps Sansa can still be redeemed.  

 

[VarysWig]

50 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

But why does Sansa not trust him? That's the confusing part for me. What does she think Jon would do that would be betraying Sansa's trust? I am not very clear on this. She demanded that he go fight against the Boltons. She pushes the notion that the North will support him as Ned's son. She is the one who is pushing this idea of Jon as Warden of the North. Jon clearly trusts Sansa.

Does she think that Jon will hand her over to the Boltons or some such shit?  Makes no sense. This is the girl who thinks that the KarStarks are still loyal, but she does not trust Jon?

I was fully immersed in the I hate Sansa life before reading this comment. WHY does she not trust Jon?

Do you think it's a similar type of distrust that Tyrion pointed out in season 5 Jorah had in Dany by not telling her that he had fed her secrets to Varys? That he didn't trust her to make the right descion?

possibly could be the same with Sansa. That if she tells Jon the truth about LF she couldn't trust him to make the right descion about using the troops?

But then again, the reminder about him being a bastard just makes me think awfully of her. I don't know if I can stand another betrayal of Jon when he's trying to fight the good fight without dying of sorrow

 

[Wilnova]

15 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

How are Bran or Arya still "clean, pure Stark"s?  Arya is killing people she doesn't even know for her training to become a paid killer; Bran just sacrificed Hodor's entire life since childhood to save his own (and possibly Meera's if he's even aware of him).  Their hands aren't clean either.

As far as I remember, on the show, Arya has only killed baddies and people who have done harm to her and others. Like Trant. She just got her first assignment to kill an innocent person. Let's see what she does.

As for Bran, whatever happened was not by intent. He did not deliberately set out to destroy Hodor's life. Making stupid decisions is sort of the very essence of being a Stark.

Sansa is deliberately lying to her brother, withholding information and maybe subtly manipulating him. Her first thing to do after becoming 'player of the game' is to lie to her own brother. Starks don't deceive each other or 'play the game'. I think that's what Benioff and Weiss mean by saying that Sansa is not a 'clean, pure Stark'. Starks don't play the game. Sansa is and she is starting with her brother.

1 minute ago, VarysWig said:

possibly could be the same with Sansa. That if she tells Jon the truth about LF she couldn't trust him to make the right descion about using the troops?

But that's being very patronizing, don't you think? I can't see Jon and Davos making the wrong decision concerning LF and Vale troops after taking Sansa's thoughts on the matter into consideration.

Is Sansa refusing the Vale troops out of spite or because she does not trust LF? Another question that needs to be asked. In the 'Inside the episode' they talk about Sansa thinking that LF could be of use to her. So maybe she is thinking that the Vale troops option is still on the table.

[VarysWig]

18 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

As far as I remember, on the show, Arya has only killed baddies and people who have done harm to her and others. Like Trant. She just got her first assignment to kill an innocent person. Let's see what she does.

As for Bran, whatever happened was not by intent. He did not deliberately set out to destroy Hodor's life. Making stupid decisions is sort of the very essence of being a Stark.

Sansa is deliberately lying to her brother, withholding information and maybe subtly manipulating him. Her first thing to do after becoming 'player of the game' is to lie to her own brother. Starks don't deceive each other or 'play the game'. I think that's what Benioff and Weiss mean by saying that Sansa is not a 'clean, pure Stark'. Starks don't play the game. Sansa is and she is starting with her brother.

But that's being very patronizing, don't you think? I can't see Jon and Davos making the wrong decision concerning LF and Vale troops after taking Sansa's thoughts on the matter into consideration.

Is Sansa refusing the Vale troops out of spite or because she does not trust LF? Another question that needs to be asked. In the 'Inside the episode' they talk about Sansa thinking that LF could be of use to her. So maybe she is thinking that the Vale troops option is still on the table.

It is. But that would fit in with her book view of him being 'just a bastard' that LF kindly reminding her of with parting words. But by now I think even in the books she has much more sympathy for bastards so I guess not. 

I guess it was a good Ep leaving us with so many questions! Hope they get answered

[Zara Zokan]

So Sansa meets the magically teleporting Littlefinger and refuses to use the Vale army to support the Starks even though she's the only reason the Vale Lords still believe him and trust him. And like much of the Northern politics this season, everyone realises what a stupid move the Sansa Marriage Strike was and she calls LF out for the plot last year making no sense. And apparently LF knows her ultimate crime of calling her half-brother her half-brother?

She also learns that the Tullys have retaken Riverrun offscreen from the people who took Riverrun offscreen and have a huge army, because it's implied they can support the Starks rather than holding out against the Lannisters and other River Lords? 

And though there's some Jon x Sansa material with her making fancy clothes for him from all of the sewing material they have at Castle Black, they foreshadow imminent conflict by Sansa lying about Riverrun.