Discussing Sansa XXIII: Lady Stork and her flock

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Does Sansa has the same ambitions as Jon? I don't think so. But I don't think she plans to stab him in the back. But they are not perfectly aligned either. I think she is more ambitious and more willing to play dirty and wants to curve a power base for herlsef. In part due to LF lessons and spending more time in the capital and the Vale. Jon is more focused on taking down the Boltons, and facing the White Walkers and is more tired of fighting. He would like to rest after achieving those objectives.

Is she going to stab Jon in the back? I don't think so. She does care for Jon.

But perhaps their will be some collision in the future in regards to what each thinks is the best way to move forward or if maybe their plans will conflict. Sansa keeping secrets might also be part of it.

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Interestingly enough, she lets LF lives. Was that a good decision? We shall see. LF got the necessary leverage with the army, but the point is how will that play in what's to come. I half-expected to see some mutually beneficial agreement, but I doubt they will be apart for long...

No. If anything has been proven, is that letting Littlefinger live, is a dangerous mistake. Littlefinger is a manipulative, scheming backstabber. Neither Eddard nor Tyrion trusted him that much, although Ned thought that LF would act in his favor for the love LF used to have for Catelyn. They still underestimated him and Littlefinger still moved against them. Somewhat distrustful but letting him move freely isn't the right move with Littlefinger. Just kill him. So at this point, Sansa realized that LF is untrustworthy and has his own agenda, and hates what he did to her, but she doesn't dislike him enough (because she doesn't know his full involvement with harming her family or his other crimes) and is still underestimating how dangerous he really is.

Sansa is making the power play, and isn't motivated exclusively by revenge, or her revenge plans, stretch beyond just the Boltons,  and the Vale army is part of it.

[the tower of albion]

8 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

If you ask me there are three ways you can look into this, and the thing is...they are not mutually exclusive:

-She lies because, as ever, LF is cunning enough to poison her ears, and makes her doubt herself and her power. That's why he mentions his "half-brother's army". And right before that, he reminds her of her Tully side. He's trying to get her away from Jon, by making her suspicious of Jon, and her position. This is somethig I was expecting since I saw the preview. LF wants Sansa all for himself. He cannot handle her trusting another man, even less so if that man is her brother.

-She lies because she's actually the only one who knows LF, and knows Davos, Jon and Tormund are not worthy opponents of LF regarding the Game of Thrones. LF is always shady as fuck, so the Vale army is just a double-edged weapon. She doesn't want it, and she doesn't want anything related to LF. She wants to get the North on her own terms.

-She lies because she doesn't want the others to know about her meeting with LF. Also, as I mentioned before...Sansa's got used to lies. It's basically what LF taught her. You can feel it and see it on her face right after Brienne calls her on it...she's not feeling good about lying...to Jon. She couldn't give a fuck about the others, but not Jon. 

Either way, these lies are going to be adressed in the future episodes. I'm sure Jon will find out Sansa knew about the Vale army all along. Probably after E.9, maybe even before it actually shows up. Their dynamics are pretty interesting already, so, I'm excited about how this will pay off.

I think your right about it being a Tully thing. She is her mothers daughter. It's ingrained in her that Jon is a Snow not a Stark. The claim is hers and her true born siblings. But I don't think it's personal. It's just that in her eyes Jon remains bastard born.

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, VarysWig said:

It is. But that would fit in with her book view of him being 'just a bastard' that LF kindly reminding her of with parting words. But by now I think even in the books she has much more sympathy for bastards so I guess not. 

What view? Sansa, AFAIK, long abandoned that stance, not that she ever fully discarded him as just a bastard. Even in AGOT she shows compassion to Jon's situation at Wall, when she sees what Yoren looks like.

What I really don't understand is the "pure, clean Stark". Naturally, as these children grow older, they become corrupted by different things. Bran mind-raping Hodor, Arya is set to kill a woman who most likely did nothing. The corruption seems normal part of growing in such world and I have no problems with Sansa doing something shady. But, in this case, it is unclear why she did it. Was she affected by LF? Probably, but she is rather adamant in trusting Jon. 

8 minutes ago, the tower of albion said:

I think your right about it being a Tully thing. She is her mothers daughter. It's ingrained in her that Jon is a Snow not a Stark. The claim is hers and her true born siblings. But I don't think it's personal. It's just that in her eyes Jon remains bastard born.

Well, the problem is that she thinks that WF is also Jon's home. Last episode, she used a lot of "we" and "our"

54 minutes ago, Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren said:

Does Sansa has the same ambitions as Jon? I don't think so. But I don't think she plans to stab him in the back. But they are not perfectly aligned either.

I think you have a nice point here. I do think Sansa loves Jon and cares deeply for him but agenda-wise, they may have different ideas of what they may be doing. 

[bb1180]

53 minutes ago, Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren said:

Is she going to stab Jon in the back? I don't think so. She does care for Jon.

But perhaps their will be some collision in the future in regards to what each thinks is the best way to move forward or if maybe their plans will conflict. Sansa keeping secrets might also be part of it.

I think you're right on both counts.  Sansa doesn't necessarily trust Jon to make the right decisions,  especially in dealing with Littlefinger or after Littlefinger managed to plant seeds of doubt in that regard.  Still,  people are concentrating on only the first half of that statement from the 'inside-the-episode' bit about her not trusting Jon,  but ignoring the part about her having a real allegiance to him.  So no,  its not likely at all that she did this with the intention of backstabbing Jon,  but rather,  that Littlefinger is in her head and its leading her to make questionable decisions. 

No doubt there will be some fallout from this later in the season,  but I don't think it will result in much more than a bump in the road,  a midseason point of infighting and TV drama that will be sorted out within a few scenes,  when its addressed.  

[AryaSansa]

Why would Little Finger give Sansa to be raped?  Roose Bolton didn't even know how bad Ramsey was, so now Sansa expects Little Finger to know?

 

Little Finger seems like a decent guy who is just doing the practical thing.  Love his accent too

[Pandean]

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster who literally joined this forum for this thread series because she couldn't stand to just read it and not comment anymore.

My personal take on the whole thing, and I could be majorly wrong, is that Sansa lied because she didn't want to seem dependent on LF or even give knowledge that she met with LF. Given LF's infamous reputation I think that could be wise, since it might make people doubt her. I don't think she hid the info on where she had the army for any nefarious reason. More likely it's something like her lingering mistrust of people (and I mean, can you blame her? Don't answer that. I'm sure someone will.) or some other type of thing, but I don't think she's jealous or planning something bad because of Jon.

 

When I heard the Ramsay/Jon line, I personally thought of it as "If the North can get behind Ramsay Bolton, who despite being legitimized was a bastard and is viewed as still so by many, then they can get behind Jon."

Ramsay is as much of Roose Bolton's son as Jon is Ned's. They both are northerners with northern blood, etc.

I thought it was really cute how she made matching outfits. I really like how they continue the theme of Sansa sewing and whatnot. It's something individual to her character and it's cool. But maybe that's just because I sew.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, AryaSansa said:

Why would Little Finger give Sansa to be raped?  Roose Bolton didn't even know how bad Ramsey was, so now Sansa expects Little Finger to know?

As Sansa said, if he didn't know, he was an idiot. Especially since half the Iron Islands already knew about Theon's castration. The fact remains that when it comes to Ramsay, everybody seems to lose some 100 IQ points.

1 hour ago, Pandean said:

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster who literally joined this forum for this thread series because she couldn't stand to just read it and not comment anymore.

Welcome to the thread. Yeah, Sansa debates have that effect

[Pandean]

2 minutes ago, Risto said:

 

Welcome to the thread. Yeah, Sansa debates have that effect

I mean, she IS my favorite character. 

Plus Sophie's acting this season has been beyond belief.

[Asma Ben Hamouda]

Sansa threads always looks like a World War 3

now you will hear "sansa in not pure, clean Stark" from the fans of very known character for the next 5 years

[queenmarg]

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster who literally joined this forum for this thread series because she couldn't stand to just read it and not comment anymore.

My personal take on the whole thing, and I could be majorly wrong, is that Sansa lied because she didn't want to seem dependent on LF or even give knowledge that she met with LF. Given LF's infamous reputation I think that could be wise, since it might make people doubt her. I don't think she hid the info on where she had the army for any nefarious reason. More likely it's something like her lingering mistrust of people (and I mean, can you blame her? Don't answer that. I'm sure someone will.) or some other type of thing, but I don't think she's jealous or planning something bad because of Jon.

 

When I heard the Ramsay/Jon line, I personally thought of it as "If the North can get behind Ramsay Bolton, who despite being legitimized was a bastard and is viewed as still so by many, then they can get behind Jon."

Ramsay is as much of Roose Bolton's son as Jon is Ned's. They both are northerners with northern blood, etc.

I thought it was really cute how she made matching outfits. I really like how they continue the theme of Sansa sewing and whatnot. It's something individual to her character and it's cool. But maybe that's just because I sew.

This was exactly my take on Sansa events this episode. I don't think she has any ambitions on becoming Queen/Wardeness of the North, she just wants justice on the fucker who raped her and conspired against family. She knows that Rickon and Bran are alive and that they have a better claim to the North than Jon or her. 

I just don't understand why she let LF walk away when she arguably could have taken control of the Vale forces (remember from S4 she was trusted by Royce and the Lords of the Vale).

[Pandean]

5 minutes ago, queenmarg said:

This was exactly my take on Sansa events this episode. I don't think she has any ambitions on becoming Queen/Wardeness of the North, she just wants justice on the fucker who raped her and conspired against family. She knows that Rickon and Bran are alive and that they have a better claim to the North than Jon or her. 

I just don't understand why she let LF walk away when she arguably could have taken control of the Vale forces (remember from S4 she was trusted by Royce and the Lords of the Vale).

I have a feeling she'll later take up the Vale forces, but on her own means. Since they're at Moat Cailin which is in the North anyway.

I don't personally think Bran would ever clan the North mainly because I think he's destined to be a tree (or well, you know).

 

ETA: I also wonder why she let LF walk away but I think it had less to do with her intentions and more to do with LF's plot armor. 

[bb1180]

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster who literally joined this forum for this thread series because she couldn't stand to just read it and not comment anymore.

My personal take on the whole thing, and I could be majorly wrong, is that Sansa lied because she didn't want to seem dependent on LF or even give knowledge that she met with LF. Given LF's infamous reputation I think that could be wise, since it might make people doubt her. I don't think she hid the info on where she had the army for any nefarious reason. More likely it's something like her lingering mistrust of people (and I mean, can you blame her? Don't answer that. I'm sure someone will.) or some other type of thing, but I don't think she's jealous or planning something bad because of Jon.

 

When I heard the Ramsay/Jon line, I personally thought of it as "If the North can get behind Ramsay Bolton, who despite being legitimized was a bastard and is viewed as still so by many, then they can get behind Jon."

Ramsay is as much of Roose Bolton's son as Jon is Ned's. They both are northerners with northern blood, etc.

I thought it was really cute how she made matching outfits. I really like how they continue the theme of Sansa sewing and whatnot. It's something individual to her character and it's cool. But maybe that's just because I sew.

We'll see where they take it,  but yes, this is more or less my take on it as well.  She's not trying to hurt or betray Jon,  but rather, she wants absolutely nothing to do with Littlefinger or his plans and schemes,  yet,  he's still in her head and planted just a bit of doubt in her mind about Jon with that half-brother comment.  Likewise,  you're right that LF is using Sansa's mistrust of others and past experiences against her in order to attempt to drive a wedge between Sansa and Jon to further his own goals.    

[Tyrek Lannister]

Sansa is definitely not a type of a character that would betray a family member, especially the one who actually sheltered her from the enemy. That's as far-fetched as possible Jon/Sansa romance. 95% it won't happen.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

12 minutes ago, Chett said:

Sansa is definitely not a type of a character that would betray a family member, especially the one who actually sheltered her from the enemy. That's as far-fetched as possible Jon/Sansa romance. 95% it won't happen.

Betraying a family member got Lady killed!. Small scale then, bigger scale now?

[Jon Snow Bengal]

So if Sansa didn't trust LF then why would she go to Moles Town with only Brienne to protect her? Seems pretty stupid.

It could've easily been a trap set by Ramsay or even LF and he would give her back to Ramsay for some kind of reward.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

And LF didn't seem half as remorseful or sorry as what he should've been.

He even did his trademark sly smirky smile while making a little smart-arse remark about 'half-brother' on his way out.

[Fred85]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

 

Regarding Sansa lying to Jon, I think a lot of you are overthinking it.  She's chosen to not accept LF's help, but she knows she can't defend that decision to the people in the room.  In the conversation where she lied, the entire focus is, "we don't have a big enough army, where can we get more men".  The easy answer would be, "use the knights of the vale".  From the point of view of Davos and others in the room, problem solved, and she knows it.

 

But, because she now hates LF, she doesn't want his help, and is making an emotional choice not to accept it.    If she tells them that she met with LF, that leads to an argument she doesn't want to have.  She's traumatized by everything that happened, and she just doesn't want to deal with it.  I think that is all there is.

 

I don't think she's (yet?) become a master strategist.

 

All of this does beg the question, however;  why doesn't Jon bring up the Vale himself?  He certainly knows that the Lord of the Vale is their cousin, and thus should be loyal to them.

 

 

 

[Asma Ben Hamouda]

1 hour ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Betraying a family member got Lady killed!. Small scale then, bigger scale now?

isn't the same thing with arya ditching her Stark name and becoming no-one? at least she with Jon are trying to retake Winterfell, Sansa is fighting a war and Arya is playing at one

[Rockroi]

So, just a small tangent but it was a very small detail that I really enjoyed about Sansa's story arc.

 

The scene with Littlefinger was very heavy-handed, but for one of the very very few times, an abused person in this story tells it like it is to one of her abusers; she describes to LF what it was like to have that monster, Ramsey, inside her, and how she can still feel him, and not in the emotional way.  Her body still feels Ramsey.  

LF apologizes but his words never seem to match his attitude and this time was no different.  The scene ends with LF, successfully, planting a seed in Sansa's mind about the Tullys etc.  Later on, when in "war counsel" with Jon and Davos, Sansa explains her real-politic on the state of affairs and how they need to work on the other, smaller houses before moving onto bigger game.  But she also mentions the Tullys.  When Davos asked now she could have known this, Sansa - effortlessly - says a completely believable lie.  Nobody suspects anything.  Later when confronted, Sansa has no adequate explanation as to why she lied to Jon.  

When Sansa lied, it was Littlefinger talking; her words, but his move.  She is now playing the game for herself but still using the moves others have taught her.  Its an exquisite scene and very well done.  

But the point is clearly made: much in the same way Sansa can still "feel" Ramsey inside her... there can be little doubt that Littlefinger is still very much inside Sansa and she can feel him too.  

[iceheart91]

2 hours ago, Pandean said:

I mean, she IS my favorite character. 

Plus Sophie's acting this season has been beyond belief.

I really love Sophie and Kit's scenes so far. They have really, really good chemistry; I think their scenes are even better than the scenes she shared with Alfie and Iwan, which says a lot, because the three of them together were magnificent. Can't wait to see what else the show has in store for Jon and Sansa.