Discussing Sansa XXIII: Lady Stork and her flock

[iceheart91]

7 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

So, just a small tangent but it was a very small detail that I really enjoyed about Sansa's story arc.

 

The scene with Littlefinger was very heavy-handed, but for one of the very very few times, an abused person in this story tells it like it is to one of her abusers; she describes to LF what it was like to have that monster, Ramsey, inside her, and how she can still feel him, and not in the emotional way.  Her body still feels Ramsey.  

LF apologizes but his words never seem to match his attitude and this time was no different.  The scene ends with LF, successfully, planting a seed in Sansa's mind about the Tullys etc.  Later on, when in "war counsel" with Jon and Davos, Sansa explains her real-politic on the state of affairs and how they need to work on the other, smaller houses before moving onto bigger game.  But she also mentions the Tullys.  When Davos asked now she could have known this, Sansa - effortlessly - says a completely believable lie.  Nobody suspects anything.  Later when confronted, Sansa has no adequate explanation as to why she lied to Jon.  

When Sansa lied, it was Littlefinger talking; her words, but his move.  She is now playing the game for herself but still using the moves others have taught her.  Its an exquisite scene and very well done.  

But the point is clearly made: much in the same way Sansa can still "feel" Ramsey inside her... there can be little doubt that Littlefinger is still very much inside Sansa and she can feel him too.  

I found that comment about Ramsay particularly disturbing. Someone else has mentioned that they believed she has hinting at she thinks she may be pregnant. Not sure if that's the case, but god forbid if it WAS, that'd be the most awful thing ever.

[lakin1013]

As a 'Jon Snow Believer"   I took the lie hard, esp after the warm reunion last week.  What most interests me is the motivation of LF, moreso than Sansa.  I think Sansa lied because she could, she did, and she wanted to.  The why is more confusing.  Even though she made a big deal about having Jon forgive her, she still has no qualms about bringing up Jon's bastard-ness to Ramsay's.  She is a snob, plain and simple.  

But the show has given us hints that LF knows the truth, or some of it, regarding Jon. We also see LF use the half-brother jab at Sansa last night.  Man always has a plan so what is it?   Will he be able to do a 180 degree turn to romance Jon?  Or has LF gone all in on Sansa, believing he can bring it off?  Could her only value to the story be as a pawn piece.  I would hate that idea.

[Raksha 2014]

1 hour ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Betraying a family member got Lady killed!. Small scale then, bigger scale now?

 She did not betray anyone during her testimony to Robert.  Sansa refused to incriminate anyone; by claiming she did not remember.  She was trying to be neutral.  If she had told the truth, she would have incriminated both her betrothed (for being a vicious young thug) and  her sister (for attacking the heir to the throne).  It was a difficult situation for any 11-year-old girl; even a 13-year-old (on the show).  Maintaining neutrality is not the same as betrayal.

[Joan Jett]

15 hours ago, Risto said:

Her old self? Old self hadn't been able to even try to tell the lie so entire "reverting to her old self" in this case is kinda nonsense. And people die. I am not the one arguing she will be the queen, but it is not out of possibility. The thing is that Sansa herself hadn't showed any actual desire to be a Queen or anything. Her only motivation so far, to quote her is to return home for her and her siblings.

Well, all I can ask as the OP is to leave whore comments outside this thread.

Don't make generalizations... Arya fandom is too large to make conclusions based on one individual

Not even close. Sansa lied to King Robert and said "I don't remember" then while in KL she pedaled Joffrey's lie and accused the lowly butchers boy of attacking him. Not to mention all the times she lied to herself.

11 hours ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

 

"Looking for a way to stab Jon in the back?" Goddamn, the Sansa hate is astronomical still in this gods forsaken fandom.

That, and she doesnt want others knowing LF is involved because...

This. Saying "oh yeah, i met with Littlefinger and he said a bunch of stuff about Vale armies and told me about the Blackfish!" would be fucking stupid as fuck. She knows damn well no one can trust that guy and shes struggling with whether or not she wants to believe what he said to her. It was bloody common sense.

D&D confirmed that she lies because she didn't trust Jon.

9 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

How are Bran or Arya still "clean, pure Stark"s?  Arya is killing people she doesn't even know for her training to become a paid killer; Bran just sacrificed Hodor's entire life since childhood to save his own (and possibly Meera's if he's even aware of him).  Their hands aren't clean either. 

Arya has yet to kill anyone the HoBaW has assigned her. 

6 hours ago, Risto said:

What view? Sansa, AFAIK, long abandoned that stance, not that she ever fully discarded him as just a bastard. Even in AGOT she shows compassion to Jon's situation at Wall, when she sees what Yoren looks like.

What I really don't understand is the "pure, clean Stark". Naturally, as these children grow older, they become corrupted by different things. Bran mind-raping Hodor, Arya is set to kill a woman who most likely did nothing. The corruption seems normal part of growing in such world and I have no problems with Sansa doing something shady. But, in this case, it is unclear why she did it. Was she affected by LF? Probably, but she is rather adamant in trusting Jon. 

Well, the problem is that she thinks that WF is also Jon's home. Last episode, she used a lot of "we" and "our"

I think you have a nice point here. I do think Sansa loves Jon and cares deeply for him but agenda-wise, they may have different ideas of what they may be doing. 

How exactly? Even AFFC she considers Jon to be her lower sibling. 

As for that time in AGOT, only Sansa could show compassion for her brother while also sounding condescending as hell. It's impressive really. 

2 hours ago, Asma Ben Hamouda said:

Sansa threads always looks like a World War 3

now you will hear "sansa in not pure, clean Stark" from the fans of very known character for the next 5 years

Blame D&D, they said it.  

42 minutes ago, Asma Ben Hamouda said:

isn't the same thing with arya ditching her Stark name and becoming no-one? at least she with Jon are trying to retake Winterfell, Sansa is fighting a war and Arya is playing at one

No its not the same at all. Arya drove Nymeria away to protect her. Sansa lied to protect Joffrey and she was punished for it.

Ah yes....Sansa is playing at war and letting LF get inside her head and making her lie to her brother who trusts her. 

[Ser Muradin the Small]

3 hours ago, Asma Ben Hamouda said:

Sansa threads always looks like a World War 3

Nah, WW3 was Stannis fans vs Dany fans battling over who is the most righteous, back in 12/13/14.

As for Sansa distrusting Jon, I kinda see the point. Every person she's placed trust on has betrayed her to some extent, if not fully. And she did get raped by a bastard. So, its logical for her to be wary, even a little bit, of Jon. She also probably wants to protect Jon- she gifted him a cloak that resembled her father, and her father was beheaded in the Game of Thrones. I see it as her seeing him as someone like Ned- not meant for politics/dirty tactics and someone who has to be protected from such. But I think in the coming couple of episodes, she will be surprised to see Jon's political acumen, which will probably help her trust him more.

[Joan Jett]

28 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 She did not betray anyone during her testimony to Robert.  Sansa refused to incriminate anyone; by claiming she did not remember.  She was trying to be neutral.  If she had told the truth, she would have incriminated both her betrothed (for being a vicious young thug) and  her sister (for attacking the heir to the throne).  It was a difficult situation for any 11-year-old girl; even a 13-year-old (on the show).  Maintaining neutrality is not the same as betrayal.

It wasn't neutral, though. She did it so as not to incriminate Joffrey. (At that point it she couldn't have possibly incriminated Arya if she had told the truth. Arya told the truth, so Ned expected Sansa to do the same.) 

She should have told the truth and supported her sister. A wolf is loyal and puts the pack before themselves, always. Sansa put her interests before the pack. So her wolf was killed. 

[lakin1013]

8 minutes ago, Ser Muradin the Small said:

- she gifted him a cloak that resembled her father, and her father was beheaded in the Game of Thrones. I see it as her seeing him as someone like Ned- not meant for politics/dirty tactics and someone who has to be protected from such. But I think in the coming couple of episodes, she will be surprised to see Jon's political acumen, which will probably help her trust him more.

Actually, I thought the cloak was an example of some of the superficial elements of nobility that we know Sansa likes.  Here they are, going to rustle up troops and support.  If Jon looks more like Ned, maybe folks will forget Jon is a bastard. If Jon reminds folks of Ned, folks will be thinking of trust and honor. 

 Jon was probably touched by the gift. but I think the gift was calculated to curry memories and support.  I am not faulting Sansa for this, it shows some small bit of gameplaying but I hate it when it is done to others who think it was done for some generous, heartfelt reason.  

[Ser Muradin the Small]

2 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Actually, I thought the cloak was an example of some of the superficial elements of nobility that we know Sansa likes.

Hmm...that works too actually. My guess is that its a mix of both- she's propping Jon as the next defacto Stark male and gaining him legitimacy through his association with her. A bit of manipulation is understandable, but she probably also underestimates Jon's political experience. If anything, he too will be somewhat wary to any risky decisions taken by her, knowing death is a kinda painful experience and all.

[lakin1013]

I agree, Sansa is probably going to be quite surprised about what Jon brings to the table and right now she is guilty of underestimating him big time.  But, if Sansa is planning on using him, will Jon see it, and see it in time :-(

[Ser Muradin the Small]

2 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

I agree, Sansa is probably going to be quite surprised about what Jon brings to the table and right now she is guilty of underestimating him big time.  But, if Sansa is planning on using him, will Jon see it, and see it in time :-(

Its not like Jon is being manipulated by LF, Varys, Tywin, Cersei or other malevolent actors. Sansa cares about Jon deeply- last episode proved that, and she will not put him in harms way, no matter how small. So, even if Jon has a brain fart, chances are Sansa will just give her head a shake and decide that she's going to have to take all political decisions for him till he dies.

[kg1982]

21 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Actually, I thought the cloak was an example of some of the superficial elements of nobility that we know Sansa likes.  Here they are, going to rustle up troops and support.  If Jon looks more like Ned, maybe folks will forget Jon is a bastard. If Jon reminds folks of Ned, folks will be thinking of trust and honor. 

 Jon was probably touched by the gift. but I think the gift was calculated to curry memories and support.  I am not faulting Sansa for this, it shows some small bit of gameplaying but I hate it when it is done to others who think it was done for some generous, heartfelt reason.  

Perception means something.  Dressing Jon up like Ned Stark and wearing a dress with a direwolf on it is meant to remind the Northern lords who they are.  And the significance of what Sansa was doing escaped Jon which is perhaps why the two need each other.  I think that Sansa is overly optimistic about the loyalty of the North and believe that Davos is right about human nature.  However, she understands the illusions of politics and statecraft in a way that her brother does not.  

And I think that Sansa is looking for safety, justice, and her home.  I do not think that either she or Jon has thought about what comes next and who rules what after they kick out the Boltons. 

[LadyAlisande]

Maybe she lied because it was painful to have to rehash the situation and other parts of the conversation. "I heard before I left Winterfell" is a lot easier than "well, I met with Petyr Baellish, you don't really know him but he and Mom went way back and he's the one who basically sold me to Ramsay in the first place, and I decided not to have Brienne kill him for that for complex emotional and practical reasons I can't even articulate myself at this point because I'm still basically a teenage girl..."

Sometimes a lie is just more convenient.

[Drz]

I hope she faces some real repercussions from her mistakes.

[Masha]

55 minutes ago, Ser Muradin the Small said:

Nah, WW3 was Stannis fans vs Dany fans battling over who is the most righteous, back in 12/13/14.

As for Sansa distrusting Jon, I kinda see the point. Every person she's placed trust on has betrayed her to some extent, if not fully. And she did get raped by a bastard. So, its logical for her to be wary, even a little bit, of Jon. She also probably wants to protect Jon- she gifted him a cloak that resembled her father, and her father was beheaded in the Game of Thrones. I see it as her seeing him as someone like Ned- not meant for politics/dirty tactics and someone who has to be protected from such. But I think in the coming couple of episodes, she will be surprised to see Jon's political acumen, which will probably help her trust him more.

I don't know Sansa's full reasons for lying to Jon. I could see her lying to prevent questions about her meeting the man who tricked her into arms of Boltons, and avoiding unpleasant conversation about why she did even go there. Or if she doesn't really want to use Vale/LF armies because it involves LF and knows that Jon and Co. Would insist of using it as the main part of their army. 

But since D&D basically confirmed that Sansa doesn't trust Jon fully, its because LF little seed sprouted when he clarified that Jon army is  "not hers" and Jon is her "half-brother". She is starting mistrust Jon might supplant her and takes,  perhaps subconscious steps, to protect herself. She keeps Vale army secret so she would have her own "fresh" army as Jon spends his. 

But every person that betrayed her was not of Stark blood. Even Lysa, she was Tylly not Stark. Sansa is not worried about Jon betraying her, she is worried about her own base.

47 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Actually, I thought the cloak was an example of some of the superficial elements of nobility that we know Sansa likes.  Here they are, going to rustle up troops and support.  If Jon looks more like Ned, maybe folks will forget Jon is a bastard. If Jon reminds folks of Ned, folks will be thinking of trust and honor. 

 Jon was probably touched by the gift. but I think the gift was calculated to curry memories and support.  I am not faulting Sansa for this, it shows some small bit of gameplaying but I hate it when it is done to others who think it was done for some generous, heartfelt reason.  

Sansa knew that she was cruel, comparing him to Ramsey who is not just a bastard, but a monster in his own right. So the cloak is her way of pleasing him and having him trust her.

41 minutes ago, Ser Muradin the Small said:

Hmm...that works too actually. My guess is that its a mix of both- she's propping Jon as the next defacto Stark male and gaining him legitimacy through his association with her. A bit of manipulation is understandable, but she probably also underestimates Jon's political experience. If anything, he too will be somewhat wary to any risky decisions taken by her, knowing death is a kinda painful experience and all.

Based on his face, he is already a bit wary of her. He definitely looks askance at her when they start talking about him not being Stark and she compares him to Ramsey. 

He is somewhat nicely surprised by cloak so Sansa diffuses the tension a bit. But I can see conflict rising, when her LF lie becomes revealed, or when he gets more supporters than her, and most men follow him and dismiss her. And if she is pregnant, this will be a conflict.

 

 

[Florina Laufeyson]

8 hours ago, Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren said:

Does Sansa has the same ambitions as Jon? I don't think so. But I don't think she plans to stab him in the back. But they are not perfectly aligned either. I think she is more ambitious and more willing to play dirty and wants to curve a power base for herlsef. In part due to LF lessons and spending more time in the capital and the Vale. Jon is more focused on taking down the Boltons, and facing the White Walkers and is more tired of fighting. He would like to rest after achieving those objectives.

Is she going to stab Jon in the back? I don't think so. She does care for Jon.

But perhaps their will be some collision in the future in regards to what each thinks is the best way to move forward or if maybe their plans will conflict. Sansa keeping secrets might also be part of it.

No. If anything has been proven, is that letting Littlefinger live, is a dangerous mistake. Littlefinger is a manipulative, scheming backstabber. Neither Eddard nor Tyrion trusted him that much, although Ned thought that LF would act in his favor for the love LF used to have for Catelyn. They still underestimated him and Littlefinger still moved against them. Somewhat distrustful but letting him move freely isn't the right move with Littlefinger. Just kill him. So at this point, Sansa realized that LF is untrustworthy and has his own agenda, and hates what he did to her, but she doesn't dislike him enough (because she doesn't know his full involvement with harming her family or his other crimes) and is still underestimating how dangerous he really is.

Sansa is making the power play, and isn't motivated exclusively by revenge, or her revenge plans, stretch beyond just the Boltons,  and the Vale army is part of it.

 

You, i like the cut of your gib and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. I think this is really what is going on. 

6 hours ago, Pandean said:

Hi, long time lurker, first time poster who literally joined this forum for this thread series because she couldn't stand to just read it and not comment anymore.

My personal take on the whole thing, and I could be majorly wrong, is that Sansa lied because she didn't want to seem dependent on LF or even give knowledge that she met with LF. Given LF's infamous reputation I think that could be wise, since it might make people doubt her. I don't think she hid the info on where she had the army for any nefarious reason. More likely it's something like her lingering mistrust of people (and I mean, can you blame her? Don't answer that. I'm sure someone will.) or some other type of thing, but I don't think she's jealous or planning something bad because of Jon.

 

When I heard the Ramsay/Jon line, I personally thought of it as "If the North can get behind Ramsay Bolton, who despite being legitimized was a bastard and is viewed as still so by many, then they can get behind Jon."

Ramsay is as much of Roose Bolton's son as Jon is Ned's. They both are northerners with northern blood, etc.

I thought it was really cute how she made matching outfits. I really like how they continue the theme of Sansa sewing and whatnot. It's something individual to her character and it's cool. But maybe that's just because I sew.

 

Welcome to the forums! And yeah i feel similarly. I dont think Sansa is scheming to outright stab Jon in the back. Its like that guy said, her aims are different in the long run.

3 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Betraying a family member got Lady killed!. Small scale then, bigger scale now?

As if character development doesnt exist....

[Orphalesion]

I just want to point out that Sansa did not compare Jon to Ramsay. 

What she said was that Jon has just as much right tot the Stark name, as Ramsay has to the Bolton name, making a statement along the lines of "If Ramsay, the cruel bastard of the hated and treacherous Boltons can rule, so can Jon, the bastard of the esteemed, rightful rulers of the North, the Starks"

Some people just want to see bad in Sansa.

[PureGold]

I'm totally not with the crowd in that I've never liked Arya following that incident on the road to Kings Landing.  She was a thoughtless idiot to antagonize the ROYAL family the way she did.   Striking the crown prince?!?!?!?.

I think Sansa handled the mess the same way Margarey Tyrell would have, if she was saddled with an ill-bred, moron relative.  In terms of politics, the Starks were a bunch of Hicks.   Ned and Catelyn did their House no favors by allowing Misbehavior and flouting of decorum.

As for Sansa's relationship with Jon, I think she has become a creature of Kings Landing, you never completely trust anyone.  The last family she ran into resulted in said family member trying to murder her VIA 6000 foot fall.

She hates LF for what happened to her but wants to use additional forces to regain Winterfell.  Some say she should have used LF's Vale forces and turned Robin against Uncle Petyr by exposing what really happened to Lyssa HOEVER keep in mind that Sansa helped him cover up the murder.  Sansa could have taken a chance and told the Lord's Declarant what happened but she realized that she knew nothing about them and at the time, chose the devil she knew.

Jon, Arya and Bran though out on their own have had the benefit of comraderie.  Jon with Grenn, Pyp, Edd and Sam.  Arya with Hot Pie,Gendry.  Bran had Meera and Jojen.  Sansa wasn't fortunate in that way.  She and Shae got along but Sansa didn't confide her discussions with LF and the Tyrells dropped her when she was married to Tyrion and she later found out they meant to frame her.  Jon, Bran and Arya are used to loyaltyin hard times.  Sansa is not.

[Ser Muradin the Small]

A bit off topic, but I'm loving the conversation going on here, and all posters with their different opinions. I'm still a bit surprised not to see some more prominent Stark fans like Apple Martini, Lyanna Stark(not sure of her user ID) etc, but nonetheless, it always holds healthy discussions.

 

7 minutes ago, PureGold said:

She and Shae got along

Its sorta telling how unlucky she has been with friends if the closest we get is Shae of all people.

 

7 minutes ago, PureGold said:

What she said was that Jon has just as much right tot the Stark name, as Ramsay has to the Bolton name, making a statement along the lines of "If Ramsay, the cruel bastard of the hated and treacherous Boltons can rule, so can Jon, the bastard of the esteemed, rightful rulers of the North, the Starks

Nice catch, but she could have articulated what she meant more clearly. Especially since people with no political experience like Ed and Tormund were involved.

[Ingelheim]

37 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

I just want to point out that Sansa did not compare Jon to Ramsay. 

What she said was that Jon has just as much right tot the Stark name, as Ramsay has to the Bolton name, making a statement along the lines of "If Ramsay, the cruel bastard of the hated and treacherous Boltons can rule, so can Jon, the bastard of the esteemed, rightful rulers of the North, the Starks"

Some people just want to see bad in Sansa.

Hating on Sansa is a national sport around here. Trust me.

As I've already said, Sansa may have lied to Jon to protect him from LF and his schemes. But, of course, she's just this manipulative bitch who wants the North for herself and will stab Jon in the back as soon as she can. 

It's not like, on that very episode, she says: "Jon isn't Tormund, Jon isn't Davos, the Red Woman, or Stannis for that matter...Jon is Jon. He's my brother, he'll keep me safe. I trust him" 

Sansa lies to Jon because she's got used to lying, that's all. She's a player now. LF still has a hold on her, and he may have planted seeds of distrust on her head, but she loves Jon and she does trust him...maybe not completely, but I think it's safe to say she doesn't trust in anyone more than she trusts Jon right now. Lying to him was bad, and will have repercussions later on, but it's not like she's going to betray him as I've already read. Jesus. Give the girl a break.

[sj4iy]

2 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 She did not betray anyone during her testimony to Robert.  Sansa refused to incriminate anyone; by claiming she did not remember.  She was trying to be neutral.  If she had told the truth, she would have incriminated both her betrothed (for being a vicious young thug) and  her sister (for attacking the heir to the throne).  It was a difficult situation for any 11-year-old girl; even a 13-year-old (on the show).  Maintaining neutrality is not the same as betrayal.

Sorry, but that was betraying her family.  While I don't hold any sort of negative view of Sansa, she was supporting Joffrey over her sister by refusing to take sides, and she knew it.  Yes, she was a kid, and kids make stupid mistakes.  But she betrayed Arya when Arya needed her most.  And because she did, Lady died.

My own views of the current situation is that she's learning to 'rule' from the shadows.  She's keeping cards close to her chest and doesn't want to give away all of her power to Jon.  In a way, she's manipulating him by giving him everything he's ever wanted...and by doing so, getting what she wants.  She obviously does not trust him completely, despite her protestations.  I don't see her setting herself up as queen, though- I see her trying to set herself up in a position where others can no longer use her to their advantage.  She can't fight like Arya, so she's manipulating others to her advantage.  Will this work out for her in the end?  Can't say for sure, of course.  I have a feeling that it will come into play at some point down the line.  Right now, this plan is mutually beneficial for all parties.  But once they have the North back, then what?  Jon obviously wants to defend against the White Walkers...but what does Sansa want?  Will she go along with Jon's plans or does she want to pursue another avenue?  Guess we'll see.  I agree with others that Sansa is underestimating Jon, though.  I think she simply sees him as another Ned Stark...I don't think she quite understands what he's been through and what he's done.