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Discussing Sansa XXIII: Lady Stork and her flock


Mladen

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I don't quite know what Sansa's game is yet. As has been said, Rickon is still alive so she can't really be hoping to be declared Lady of Winterfell or Queen. Maybe she wants a regency and so is trying to diminish Jon in that regard. I don't think we can deny she is running game on him but I also wouldn't say she's doing it because she doesn't love him. I think she does love him but perhaps she's not going to let that get in the way of her ends. If Rickon doesn't make it and R+L=J is revealed I could see her trying to push against Jon and she would have a right to in that case.

 

3 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

Mmmm I'd suggest Tumblr. Sansa is all over it right now, and people around there are not shy about Jon x Sansa shipping, so there are like 48292 different pictures of that scene alone.

The interesting thing about the dress are the blue roses. I'm not sure if they are blue roses, but it looks like they are, so, it's pretty big foreshadowing.

Arya has a blue flower in her hair in Braavos too! EEP!

Maybe its just generic, 'Stark Girls=Winter Roses' symbolism. Its not unique to Lyanna, its in the Bael story and that pre-dates Lyanna.

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3 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

But, as I said before, looking outside Jon's family for any future love interest for him is pointless, IMO, both in the books and the Show.

I am curious why you say this? I have been wondering about Meera Reed (who is probably his twin sister LOL)

Note- sorry, this is probably off topic. 

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1 hour ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

I don't quite know what Sansa's game is yet. As has been said, Rickon is still alive so she can't really be hoping to be declared Lady of Winterfell or Queen. Maybe she wants a regency and so is trying to diminish Jon in that regard. I don't think we can deny she is running game on him but I also wouldn't say she's doing it because she doesn't love him. I think she does love him but perhaps she's not going to let that get in the way of her ends. If Rickon doesn't make it and R+L=J is revealed I could see her trying to push against Jon and she would have a right to in that case.

 

Arya has a blue flower in her hair in Braavos too! EEP!

Maybe its just generic, 'Stark Girls=Winter Roses' symbolism. Its not unique to Lyanna, its in the Bael story and that pre-dates Lyanna.

At this point I don't think Sansa wants to be Queen. She does want to be safe and secure, and eliminate threats to herself and her family. She wants her family's home back, she wants Ramsay dead...and from there, she probably wants the Freys and Lannisters dead, too, for what they have done to her family. I doubt sitting on the Iron Throne is at all her ambition, nor is she concerned about Jon gaining more power than her, assuming he doesn't try to stop her from achieving her objectives to create security for her family.

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35 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

I notice D&D use that phrasing in the YouTube video about Sansa too. 'Her true allegiance at this point', it is inclined to change. Its a seed that I think will flower between now and the end of next season or half season. 

There are a couple of ways you can interpret that statement,  though.  The first is as you have.  The second,  however, is that its in contrast to their past relationship,  that she now has a 'true allegiance at this point' to Jon,  where she never did before. 

Which interpretation is correct?  I can't say with certainty.  I suspect that the second one is,  but in the end,  I think we need more information regarding her reasons for lying to know for sure. 

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Possibly but it does follow the comment on how she's not being a 'clean, pure Stark' in her dishonesty.

Maybe they want to make a point of this until she throws Littlefinger from the top of Winterfell and disavows his ways we just don't know. I think we are meant to be suspicious of her and remember if she ends up with the loyal Vale army in the North she's probably back on track with Book Sansa's plot. Littlefinger wants Sansa to take the North for herself, I think that is clear in book and show. How he relates to her then, a Lysa Arryn scenario on his mind?

 

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I seem to recall some mention of a "friendly rivalry" kind of thing going on between Jon and Sansa.  I do believe her lying about LF will have some kind of repercussions going forward, but I didn't get any kind of dark vibe from it or anything else.  I think LF got in her head a little bit about Jon having an army of his own loyal to him, and Sansa just wants a similar thing, hence sending Brienne to go after the Tully army at Riverrun.

I really didn't read too much into any of this but a friendly rivalry vibe, where Jon and Sansa will compete to see who can win over more lords and houses to their cause.  But the second it gets serious they will have each other's backs.

It's also useful to keep in mind character motivations at this point in time.  Jon is still dealing with a lot of things emotionally, and based on how he had to be cajoled into fighting and helping Sansa, Sansa probably wants a little assurance outside of Jon that she will truly be able to win back and hold Winterfell.  Sansa on the other hand is clearly extremely motivated and passionate about this, so I think part of her lying is based on that.

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1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

I am curious why you say this? I have been wondering about Meera Reed (who is probably his twin sister LOL)

Note- sorry, this is probably off topic. 

I don't think Meera is important enough, if anyone ends up with Jon, it's going to be a POV character. Also, I don't think she's is his twin sister, but, in that case, it's even more obvious why Jon would not end up with her. Incest between siblings is frowned upon, not between cousins (although I've mentioned many times I believe Jon will stay single till the end) and I don't think Jon would use a "Targaryen" excuse for it. 

Either way, the chances for anyone outside Dany-Arya (on the books) and Dany-Arya-Sansa (on the Show) to end up with Jon are down to 0 if you ask me. I just can't see it happening. Maybe he could have something with Val, Mel, or Alys Karstark, I honestly don't think so, but who knows...but they are not endgame partners, not when you have the relationship Arya shares with Jon (and the original outline of the series having Arya fall in love with Jon before she even knew he was her cousin) or the parallels and foreshadowing between Dany and Jon.

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2 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

I don't think Meera is important enough, if anyone ends up with Jon, it's going to be a POV character. Also, I don't think she's is his twin sister, but, in that case, it's even more obvious why Jon would not end up with her. Incest between siblings is frowned upon, not between cousins (although I've mentioned many times I believe Jon will stay single till the end) and I don't think Jon would use a "Targaryen" excuse for it. 

Either way, the chances for anyone outside Dany-Arya (on the books) and Dany-Arya-Sansa (on the Show) to end up with Jon are down to 0 if you ask me. I just can't see it happening. Maybe he could have something with Val, Mel, or Alys Karstark, I honestly don't think so, but who knows...but they are not endgame partners, not when you have the relationship Arya shares with Jon (and the original outline of the series having Arya fall in love with Jon before she even knew he was her cousin) or the parallels and foreshadowing between Dany and Jon.

Geez I would hate so much for Jon and Arya's relationship to be turned romantic. Ew. And it would trivialize both characters, neither of whom are defined by romantic inclinations. 

I like the idea of Jon, Arya, Sansa and Dany all just being single, and/or eventually choosing partners who aren't as important or maybe aren't PoV characters at all.

 

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I think Sansa treated LF the way she did, because, even though she disgusts him, she is full aware if things don't go well (they won't) she will need his help to meet her objectives. She does still owe him her life, and she is complicit in the murder of her own aunt to a degree. What we are seeing is the beginning of a LF redemption arc. And if he does come (he will) it will be his own doing, and Sansa will not owe him anything in return. Having to explain EVERYTHING to Jon is just something Sansa is not ready to do yet.

This has some similarities to the Jorah/Dany arc.

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2 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

I don't think Meera is important enough, if anyone ends up with Jon, it's going to be a POV character. Also, I don't think she's is his twin sister, but, in that case, it's even more obvious why Jon would not end up with her. Incest between siblings is frowned upon, not between cousins (although I've mentioned many times I believe Jon will stay single till the end) and I don't think Jon would use a "Targaryen" excuse for it. 

Either way, the chances for anyone outside Dany-Arya (on the books) and Dany-Arya-Sansa (on the Show) to end up with Jon are down to 0 if you ask me. I just can't see it happening. Maybe he could have something with Val, Mel, or Alys Karstark, I honestly don't think so, but who knows...but they are not endgame partners, not when you have the relationship Arya shares with Jon (and the original outline of the series having Arya fall in love with Jon before she even knew he was her cousin) or the parallels and foreshadowing between Dany and Jon.

Don't know about the show, but in the books, if Jon survives I can see him abandoning everything because he is just tired of it all, and becoming a hedge knight (or doing walkabout equivalent in Westeros) or ending up with the Throne but alone.

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I don't get this "Clean, pure Stark" comment. Like...none of the surviving Starks are clean or pure. Arya's pretty much a little sociopath obsessed with revenge. Bran basically mindraped Hodor and has witnessed a bunch of horrible things, I'm sure whatever Rickon's been through isn't good either--especially now that he's with Ramsay--and considering he was with Osha I'm sure he had to drop his morals to survive. Jon's killed and been killed, etc.

Like...maybe I'm taking it out of context because I didn't see the interview or whatever it was, but I don't think any of the Stark clan is clean or pure anymore. Far from it.

And considering what Sansa has been through, I think she has the right to be mistrustful, skeptical, and even assertive over what she believes is hers. I mean, the girl's literally been a prisoner for years with no one at her back and everything she owned was owned by someone else. I think that having that sense of agency she now has is definitely something she'll clutch like a safety net. Sansa will need to learn to trust again.

I mean, her whole comment to LF with "I don't mean that I can feel it in my tender heart it pains me so" is so cynical and bitter--she's mocking the very songs she used to believe in. And you can see that clear progression from how she was before and how she is now. 

So yeah; Sansa has a long road of recovery ahead of her. But I'd expect that.

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On 2016-05-23 at 10:26 AM, Risto said:

As Sansa said, if he didn't know, he was an idiot. Especially since half the Iron Islands already knew about Theon's castration. The fact remains that when it comes to Ramsay, everybody seems to lose some 100 IQ points.

Welcome to the thread. Yeah, Sansa debates have that effect :D

Maybe Little Finger knew, but thought that Roose could control him, or that Sansa's beauty and political skill could change him.  If Roose underestimated Ramsey, then Little Finger can as well.

Also what motive would Little Finger have to marry Sansa to a monster?  Why not just attack the Boltons?

Seems the author of the books didn't think about motives and common sense when creating the plot.

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4 hours ago, AryaSansa said:

Seems the author of the books didn't think about motives and common sense when creating the plot.

Whooooaaa, slow down there. GRRM, the author, did not create this plot. This is an invention of the show.

Along those lines, people do not care about murder or kinslaying in the show. Why not have Sansa kill Littlefinger and take the Vale army for herself by telling Robin that the Boltons did it?

Simple and you do not have to invent an army that the Blackfish has to take North.

Littlefinger might be central to the plot in the books, but at this point he is just a plot device. Have Sansa fully take it over and we'll get a more interesting story.

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You know, it happened right at the start of the episode, but for me, this could have been the best scene in the episode.

I couldn't believe how long it went on.  Sansa didn't let it go.  She really drilled it home what had happened.  Her distrust of him now.  

I'm sure she will use that army at some point.  But now more on her terms.  

Best Sansa seen by far.  Also really liking Sansa - Brienne partnership.  

Girl power?

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4 hours ago, lidsa said:

Uh, what? Littlefinger owes Sansa, you mean. Sansa and every other Stark for that matter. The whole realm really.

Little finger saved Sansa from getting pushed through the moon door by her aunt, or did you miss that episode? He also pulled her out of KL.

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If Sansa holds back the Vale army for selfish reasons and allows Jon's army to begin the battle vs Ramsey outnumbered that would be shady as hell. She would essentially be doing what LF planned to do anyway. Which is let the two sides wipe each other out and swoop in at the end to claim the North for himself.  In this case, herself.  She would ultimately be removing valuable manpower for the true war to come which is the war vs the white walkers...  So once again, Sansa's selfish ways would lead to more loss and destruction for her family.  I pray that Sansa plays this situation correctly with her family and the big picture in mind and not her own selfish goals.  It's sad that Sansa was always more of a Southern soul and not Northern and her mentor/father figure is Littlefinger. The biggest schemer in the 7 kingdoms. Regardless, I don't know how many more chances Sansa will get to make this mistake before it dooms her. 

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Indeed. I think if Sansa will make these two armies wipe each other and then comes as a "saviour" with LF army I don't think Jon will forgive her for that. It will be a disaster for their relationship. If that happens I think the Sansa in the Show is doomed and will be dead until the end of the series.

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