Discussing Sansa XXIII: Lady Stork and her flock

[permaximum]

10 hours ago, Risto said:

Ms Turner was a child during the greatest part of the series and as such, it is normal to get back seat. It is the standard in TV production. That doesn't mean she is not a top tier character, given that she is among 5,6 characters who featured in most episodes and had screen time. Same goes for all child actors - Ms Williams and Mr. Hempstead-Wright.

 

SCREENTIME DATA: 

 

That's a good point. Although "screen time" is not good enough. For example Varys' screen time this season is really high thanks to being next to Tyrion although he just stands near him and doesn't speak at all and that doesn't make him one of the main characters of this season.

There's a better indicator about character dominance in the show. Simply it's the spoken words count and the share of words in a scene by different characters.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/most-dominant-character-game-thrones-7814061

What a surprise! Besides Jaime, the first 6 characters credited in the show top the lists while Sansa is nowhere to be seen. She's at 18th place or something. I also pointed out she's placed 11th in the cast order. Even in a flawed "screen-time" metric she's 6th.

She's definetely not a top tier character. She gets considerable amount of screen time because Sansa is Benioff's favourite character and Sophie Turner his favourite actress. As far as the story goes, she is a second tier character.

[Mladen]

15 minutes ago, permaximum said:

That's a good point. Although "screen time" is not good enough. For example Varys' screen time this season is really high thanks to being next to Tyrion although he just stands near him and doesn't speak at all and that doesn't make him one of the main characters of this season.

There's a better indicator about character dominance in the show. Simply it's the spoken words count and the share of words in a scene by different characters.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/most-dominant-character-game-thrones-7814061

What a surprise! Besides Jaime, the first 6 characters credited in the show top the lists while Sansa is nowhere to be seen. She's at 18th place or something. I also pointed out she's placed 11th in the cast order. Even in a flawed "screen-time" metric she's 6th.

She's definetely not a top tier character. She gets considerable amount of screen time because Sansa is Benioff's favourite character and Sophie Turner his favourite actress. As far as the story goes, she is a second tier character.

This is a cross generational saga, per the words of GRRM himself. That said, there are 6 main characters - three most likely dragon riders - Jon, Dany and Tyrion and three Stark children - Sansa, Arya and Bran. The sheer amount of their POV and the emphasis on their growing process is what makes them main characters in the story.

As for show, the same applies. We also have the mathematical research on the topic: http://qz.com/650796/mathematicians-mapped-out-every-game-of-thrones-relationship-to-find-the-main-character/ where Sansa is placed n.3

As for bolded, either you are misinformed or just joking... If it is latter, it was a good one  

[permaximum]

You go

1 hour ago, Risto said:

This is a cross generational saga, per the words of GRRM himself. That said, there are 6 main characters - three most likely dragon riders - Jon, Dany and Tyrion and three Stark children - Sansa, Arya and Bran. The sheer amount of their POV and the emphasis on their growing process is what makes them main characters in the story.

As for show, the same applies. We also have the mathematical research on the topic: http://qz.com/650796/mathematicians-mapped-out-every-game-of-thrones-relationship-to-find-the-main-character/ where Sansa is placed n.3

As for bolded, either you are misinformed or just joking... If it is latter, it was a good one  

I don't know the books or chapters. What I know is the show. And if mathmeticians had a say on the show, it seems Robb, Catelyn, Tywin, Stannis, Mance, Eddard, Joffrey wouldn't die and I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing Lysa is twice as important as Baelish in the story or Jaime is twice as important as Cersei.

As for bolded, you're clearly ignorant on this. Weiss' favourite character is Tyrion and Benioff's favourite character is Sansa. Benioff also pointed out they changed a crucial story from the books because they think Sophie Turner is such a great actress that they wanted to her to be prominent in the season 5 too. You can find videos about their favourite characters and Sansa's story arc in season 5 on youtube. If you're too lazy I can provide you with them.

If you need more teaching, just tell me. I am happy to share my knowledge.

[Mladen]

26 minutes ago, permaximum said:

You go

I don't know the books or chapters. What I know is the show. And if mathmeticians had a say on the show, it seems Robb, Catelyn, Tywin, Stannis, Mance, Eddard, Joffrey wouldn't die and I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing Lysa is twice as important as Baelish in the story or Jaime is twice as important as Cersei.

Just as you find it hard to believe that Jaime is twice as important as Cersei, I find the same regarding Sam, Ramsay, Bronn, Daario, Brienne, High Sparrow or Roose being more important than either Bran (not on the list), Arya or Sansa. We do know who the main characters of this story are. So, no, Tywin, Eddard, Joffrey, Cat etc. are not more important to the story than Stark children. Half of the people of that list can't get anywhere near to the importance of the story as Stark children. This is their story. ASOIAF, and by extension GoT is their story. They are 1/2 of the top tier characters. Anything else shows complete misunderstanding of what the story is supposed to be about.

26 minutes ago, permaximum said:

As for bolded, you're clearly ignorant on this. Weiss' favourite character is Tyrion and Benioff's favourite character is Sansa. Benioff also pointed out they changed a crucial story from the books because they think Sophie Turner is such a great actress that they wanted to her to be prominent in the season 5 too. You can find videos about their favourite characters and Sansa's story arc in season 5 on youtube. If you're too lazy I can provide you with them.

If you need more teaching, just tell me. I am happy to share my knowledge.

Oh, thank you for that kind offer. I will have that in mind if I ever need it. I never actually thought there were people who actually bought that.

I don't for a split of the second believe their words, especially having in mind that Sansa is one of those characters they have no idea about (but, since you haven't read the books or not interested in them it would be hard for me to explain it). This is the classic HBO-PR stunt when they have been preparing for the upcoming shitstorm caused by the last year's episode 5. So "Sansa is my favorite character" is a code "when you see how we botched her storyline this season, remember how much we love this girly character and that misogynist plot is not how we really feel" And then repeating the same thing this year to make us forget about Season 5. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

I agree with Risto regarding Sansa.

I do not know if many others agree with my opinion that they really dislike her book character (D&D&C), C is for Byran Cogman and that they set out to punish her on their show. They really seem to resent her sexual rejection of Tyrion in the books. The dialogue was so horrific in ep 6 of Season 5 as well as the title considering what happened that is screams of, well, some language I will not use here. They are going out of their way to damage control by Seaon 6, however there is too much damage done to erase that.

Moving foreward with episode 6 to the rest of the season, Sansa has lied to Jon and kept Littlginger alive. This will play out in ep 9 or 10 and to me, can only be to the benefit of Littlefinger and that is not good.

So, since I do not think they like Sansa very much but probably like the actress, do not be fooled by all of the empowerment of Sansa because one way or another, if LF continues to breath air on AGOT, he will have a hold over Sansa, someway, somehow.

[permaximum]

3 hours ago, Risto said:

Just as you find it hard to believe that Jaime is twice as important as Cersei, I find the same regarding Sam, Ramsay, Bronn, Daario, Brienne, High Sparrow or Roose being more important than either Bran (not on the list), Arya or Sansa. We do know who the main characters of this story are. So, no, Tywin, Eddard, Joffrey, Cat etc. are not more important to the story than Stark children. Half of the people of that list can't get anywhere near to the importance of the story as Stark children. This is their story. ASOIAF, and by extension GoT is their story. They are 1/2 of the top tier characters. Anything else shows complete misunderstanding of what the story is supposed to be about.

Oh, thank you for that kind offer. I will have that in mind if I ever need it. I never actually thought there were people who actually bought that.

I don't for a split of the second believe their words, especially having in mind that Sansa is one of those characters they have no idea about (but, since you haven't read the books or not interested in them it would be hard for me to explain it). This is the classic HBO-PR stunt when they have been preparing for the upcoming shitstorm caused by the last year's episode 5. So "Sansa is my favorite character" is a code "when you see how we botched her storyline this season, remember how much we love this girly character and that misogynist plot is not how we really feel" And then repeating the same thing this year to make us forget about Season 5. 

Just to be clear, do you think Sansa is a "top tier character" in the books or in the Show?

[Mladen]

20 minutes ago, permaximum said:

Just to be clear, do you think Sansa is a "top tier character" in the books or in the Show?

Both. There is no point denying that.

[permaximum]

1 hour ago, Risto said:

Both. There is no point denying that.

You seem to ground your aguments on the books that's why I asked the question in the first place. I can't speak for the books but when it comes to the show you're gravely mistaken.

[Lord Freddy Blackfyre]

The top tier character in both book and show are: Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Arya and Bran

Second tier: Stannys, Sansa, Cersei, Jeimy, Theon

[Mladen]

6 hours ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said:

The top tier character in both book and show are: Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Arya and Bran

Second tier: Stannys, Sansa, Cersei, Jeimy, Theon

The top tier characters in the book, or Bog 6 as they are called are above-mentioned and Sansa. This is a cross-generational saga about children growing up in harshest imaginable conditions and that is where Sansa fits the best. It would be impossible to negate that given how many chapters she actually has (more than Bran, actually) and what emphasis Martin put on her road, self-discovery and transition from naive girl into smart, young woman ready to control her own future.

Also, this week, we didn't go North, but the preview was very interesting. What do you expect to see in the North next week?

[Ingelheim]

6 hours ago, Risto said:

The top tier characters in the book, or Bog 6 as they are called are above-mentioned and Sansa. This is a cross-generational saga about children growing up in harshest imaginable conditions and that is where Sansa fits the best. It would be impossible to negate that given how many chapters she actually has (more than Bran, actually) and what emphasis Martin put on her road, self-discovery and transition from naive girl into smart, young woman ready to control her own future.

Also, this week, we didn't go North, but the preview was very interesting. What do you expect to see in the North next week?

At least 15 good minutes of screentime. Seriously, the Northern storyline is the main one this season, but I feel like these last two episodes they've just sidelined it. And I don't like that. This episode was 50 minutes long. They could have given us a couple of scenes.

I expect some conversation between Sansa and Jon in which she assures him she wants Jon as King. Or something of that sort. Also, some good speeches by Tormund and Davos.

There's a scene in the preview though, a man walking towards Sansa, like he's angry at her. Do we know who is this guy? Could he be a Mormont? He looks quite similar to Jeor. But I thought Jon and Sansa would talk to Lyanna Mormont.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Ingelheim said:

At least 15 good minutes of screentime. Seriously, the Northern storyline is the main one this season, but I feel like these last two episodes they've just sidelined it. And I don't like that. This episode was 50 minutes long. They could have given us a couple of scenes.

I expect some conversation between Sansa and Jon in which she assures him she wants Jon as King. Or something of that sort. Also, some good speeches by Tormund and Davos.

There's a scene in the preview though, a man walking towards Sansa, like he's angry at her. Do we know who is this guy? Could he be a Mormont? He looks quite similar to Jeor. But I thought Jon and Sansa would talk to Lyanna Mormont.

The man from the trailer, based on the shield behind is a Glover. And he doesn't seem angry, more like dead serious.

Yes, the North storyline is the only one that is working this year and I have to say that both Harington and Turner are doing exceptional job. And the fact that they were missing is just one of the (main) reasons why the last episode sucked badly.

[Ingelheim]

51 minutes ago, Risto said:

The man from the trailer, based on the shield behind is a Glover. And he doesn't seem angry, more like dead serious.

Yes, the North storyline is the only one that is working this year and I have to say that both Harington and Turner are doing exceptional job. And the fact that they were missing is just one of the (main) reasons why the last episode sucked badly.

Mmm I hadn't noticed the shield, you are right. That's interesting.

Why are the Glovers on Bear Island? I mean, I know the Show doesn't care much about distances and jetpacks, but I doubt Jon and Co. will go to Bear Island and Deedwood Motte in the same episode.

Yes, I think the same. It's the strongest one without a doubt. It's not only because of Turner or Harignton (although I think they are killing it this season, and their chemistry is amazing), but I really think everything about it has been great so far. I would have added a few scenes (like Davos asking Mel about Stannis and Shireen right after he sees her in Ep.1, for example), but I'm quite happy with it.

In fact, the Bran stroyline has also been great, I would spend far more time with these two than the bullshit Meeren or Dany has been so far.

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, Ingelheim said:

Mmm I hadn't noticed the shield, you are right. That's interesting.

Why are the Glovers on Bear Island? I mean, I know the Show doesn't care much about distances and jetpacks, but I doubt Jon and Co. will go to Bear Island and Deedwood Motte in the same episode.

Yes, I think the same. It's the strongest one without a doubt. It's not only because of Turner or Harignton (although I think they are killing it this season, and their chemistry is amazing), but I really think everything about it has been great so far. I would have added a few scenes (like Davos asking Mel about Stannis and Shireen right after he sees her in Ep.1, for example), but I'm quite happy with it.

In fact, the Bran stroyline has also been great, I would spend far more time with these two than the bullshit Meeren or Dany has been so far.

Probably they have been going to Deepwood Motte and then to Bear Islands. And given how much some have traveled, that is not the craziest thing to imagine. But, yeah, I would assume we will see both DM and BI.

I think that overall North's aesthetics, acting and even story are far more natural and cohesive than in many other parts of Westeros. Dorne is MIA, KL goes from scheming Marg to fanatic Marg without any reason, Dany is giving speeches for no obvious purposes. So, yeah, it is working perfectly...

Also, the only beutiful things we have seen so far in the season are Sansa's dress and, still undecided so perhaps, CotF. Everything else seems washed, recycled... The show needs to improve its looks ASAP. 

[Ingelheim]

3 hours ago, Risto said:

Probably they have been going to Deepwood Motte and then to Bear Islands. And given how much some have traveled, that is not the craziest thing to imagine. But, yeah, I would assume we will see both DM and BI.

I think that overall North's aesthetics, acting and even story are far more natural and cohesive than in many other parts of Westeros. Dorne is MIA, KL goes from scheming Marg to fanatic Marg without any reason, Dany is giving speeches for no obvious purposes. So, yeah, it is working perfectly...

Also, the only beutiful things we have seen so far in the season are Sansa's dress and, still undecided so perhaps, CotF. Everything else seems washed, recycled... The show needs to improve its looks ASAP. 

Naaa I'm 99% sure Marg is faking it. She's either fooling the HS or working with him. I believe the latter is more plausible. The HS needed the Crown, and Marg needed to get out of there ASAP, so they are working together. It makes the most sense.

Dany is boring, as always, I agree. And I'm also very thankful for Dorne being MIA. They should have cut it out. D&D wanted to but Bryan Cogman asked them not to. What a mistake.

The North is all I want right now.

That's why I think we are getting to the best part of the season. Episodes 9 and 10 sound crazy already, and we know few spoilers about them.

[Ser Muradin the Small]

Not to put a damper on your discussion, but what's the official stance of this site regarding discussing future episodes on threads made for earlier episodes?

The North is undoubtedly the best storyline this season. Everything else...feels so pointless tbh. Although I'll disagree that this episode sucked by any margin- they granted us enough treats to forgive for the lack of the North.

 

 

[Mladen]

Just now, Ser Muradin the Small said:

Not to put a damper on your discussion, but what's the official stance of this site regarding discussing future episodes on threads made for earlier episodes?

Just use the spoiler brackets... Given that we had no Sansa in this episode the thread will be open for the debate of what to expect.

[Lord Freddy Blackfyre]

Do you guys think that Sansa will do to Rickon, in the show, what she's doing to Sweet Robyn in the book?

[Ingelheim]

2 hours ago, Lord Freddy Blackfyre said:

Do you guys think that Sansa will do to Rickon, in the show, what she's doing to Sweet Robyn in the book?

Rickon is a goner, if you ask me. No way Ramsay doesn't kill him.

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Ingelheim said:

Rickon is a goner, if you ask me. No way Ramsay doesn't kill him.

Unless Umber pull the "Ghost of WF" card, I would agree.