Hold the Door!

[U-238A]

To anyone still confused, this is a paradox. Simply, you cannot unify or solve it. That's the idea of a paradox. You can discuss it all you want, but it will never make physical or temporal sense, because it cannot.

What has already occurred, occurred due to time travel affecting the events of the past. These events must happen in order to allow the current present to occur, which in turn allows the time travelling to occur to allow the past to be affected, and so the loop continues. 

Applying this to Hodor's situation... Wylis was destined to be Hodor. There are no other time lines or universes. There are no "if Bran didn't go back to warg Wylis" etc. Bran had to warg him because that's how the present came to be. It has already occurred and it occurred this way due to exactly what happened in both past and present. There are no other possibilities. Essentially, it was destiny/fate and nothing could change it. We simply found out how the present came to be (ie. We found out how Hodor came to be).

It is a terrible thing what GRRM did to Hodor's character, but it was done so well. Tragic, is the one and only word to describe it. A tragedy in its most literal sense.

[darksellsword]

The way I interpreted it  Bran warged(skinchanged) into young Hodor and implanted this powerful command to hold the door that young Hodor had in his mind right up until the moment the situation actually arose. I don't think he experienced what was happening to future Hodor.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

Fack you onion cutting ninjas!
 

[oursisthefury69]

14 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Bran cannot go back and change the past. This episode proves that there is only ONE timeline. So any dabbling in the past has already had its affect. All the rescuer needs to do is put them on his horse and rise away. I think that they simply out race the zombies. 

Yea this is the proper viewpoint and explanation of what happened in the show last night, kinda hope it isnt the way it wors in the books to an extent, and am surprised to see so many people not being able to grasp this and articulate it this way.

And i find it passing odd that the same show thats been pushing the whole no afterlife theme between beric and Jons explanatipons of death is also going for a pre-destination all time has occured angle as well

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

Seriously, it was heartbreaking.
I never would've guessed we would actually discover how Hodor turned into what he was. Yes, this is George's doing all right...

So damned sad. We're losing way too many characters this season.

[House Cambodia]

3 minutes ago, Daemon I Blackfyre said:

Seriously, it was heartbreaking.
I never would've guessed we would actually discover how Hodor turned into what he was. Yes, this is George's doing all right...

So damned sad. We're losing way too many characters this season.

Absolutely was heartbreaking. I'm still numb. I'm so jaded and unmoved by deaths in this series' GoT. Pretty young innocent girl poisoned (Myrcella) - meh. Fat monosyllabic simpleton - floods of tears. Remarkable, isn't it? I don't think it's irrelevant that the former was D&D's doing whereas this one is pure GRRM.

[JonisHenryTudor]

14 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

No -- they won't. Bran will not die -- and Hodor gave them the time they needed to get away. 

  Hide contents

According to fairly reliable spoilers, Benjen finds them and rescues them.

 

Yeah I actually thought the same thing. 

 

Spoiler

My guess is that He saw something off, and spent his time tracking them from a safe distance. He was/is a ranger after all. 

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

55 minutes ago, Olorin81 said:

I don't imagine that Bran will die, but I really don't see how the tireless zombies aren't going to catch up to them. Look how they were nearly on the brink of death just getting to the 3ER. I don't really know where they think they're gonna go now.

Unless the goal is to force Bran to go S of the Wall so that the "mark" can allow the WW to break the warding on the Wall and take it down?

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

3 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Absolutely was heartbreaking. I'm still numb. I'm so jaded and unmoved by deaths in this series' GoT. Pretty young innocent girl poisoned (Myrcella) - meh. Fat monosyllabic simpleton - floods of tears. Remarkable, isn't it? I don't think it's irrelevant that the former was D&D's doing whereas this one is pure GRRM.

This is very true. I personally think D&D are good narrative directors when they have something to work on, but when they don't... Oh, boy.
Myrcella's death was a very Meh moment for me too, Doran's made me just angry and Roose's was freaking DUMB. But Oberyn, Robb, Ned and all of the others that were killed off in the show, had awesome death scenes because Martin was behind it with his books.

Which makes the fact that GoT got far away from the books plots all the more sadder. In a year or two, we'll only be able to imagine what this adaptation could've been for us book readers, if George at least finished tWoW in time.

Just hope D&D manage to make Ramsay's death as enjoyable as Joffrey's. It can't be hard, even without the chapter from WINDS.

[JonisHenryTudor]

1 minute ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Unless the goal is to force Bran to go S of the Wall so that the "mark" can allow the WW to break the warding on the Wall and take it down?

Bran is the horn of Winter....

[JonisHenryTudor]

1 minute ago, Daemon I Blackfyre said:

This is very true. I personally think D&D are good narrative directors when they have something to work on, but when they don't... Oh, boy.
Myrcella's death was a very Meh moment for me too, Doran's made me just angry and Roose's was freaking DUMB. But Oberyn, Robb, Ned and all of the others that were killed off in the show, had awesome death scenes because Martin was behind it with his books.

Which makes the fact that GoT got far away from the books plots all the more sadder. In a year or two, we'll only be able to imagine what this adaptation could've been for us book readers, if George at least finished tWoW in time.

Just hope D&D manage to make Ramsay's death as enjoyable as Joffrey's. It can't be hard, even without the chapter from WINDS.

To be fair, we have no idea how Roose will die, so it is possible that is roughly how Martin does it. I mean, they are not exactly having their writers work with a blank slate...Martin has given them the basic story in its entirety. 

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

1 minute ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

To be fair, we have no idea how Roose will die, so it is possible that is roughly how Martin does it. I mean, they are not exactly having their writers work with a blank slate...Martin has given them the basic story in its entirety. 

Which they pretty much ignored on many occasions, since S5.

[JonisHenryTudor]

10 minutes ago, Daemon I Blackfyre said:

Which they pretty much ignored on many occasions, since S5.

Have they, because we don't even know what is in Winds or Dream.  I think it's imprudent to claim something is misdirected without reason. I think we need all the books to look at before we can suggest which changes suck, but make sense given all the constraints of tv. Or which changes were completely unnecessary. 

 

 

But I am sure Ramsay's death will be fantastic. I actually think the Battle of Winterfell or whatever anyone wants to call it will resembled the Battle of Northampton (1460). At some point in the fight, I expect the Umbers to jump ship and turn on Ramsay. I could be wrong, but SJ conveniently arrives when Roose dies. He brings in Rickon and Osha as "good faith", and then works with Ramsay to draw the Boltons out of Winterfell underthe guise of attacking Jon. It may not happen, but I think the Umbers move Rickon away while the Bolton's are slaughtered. It would be fitting given the events of the RW. 

[Evil Jay]

14 hours ago, Helena Stark said:

So, basically... Hodor is Hodor because in the future, Bran goes back in time and turns him into Hodor?But Bran can go back in time because Hodor is Hodor. So it's kind of a loop: Hodor has to hold the door, Bran turns him into Hodor in the past, Hodor grows up as Hodor, Hodor has to hold the door... 

It seemed to me more like time overlapped, and the same way Bran could hear Meera in his vision, so could young Hodor (because Bran was inside old Hodor at the time). So young Hodor and old Hodor were kind of in two places at the same time, time overlapped, there was a short circuit and here we are.

Or maybe I'm just really confused.

You have it right.

One way to think about it is: Three Eyed Raven was "transferring" or "downloading" info to Bran. Bran is in a trance and back in the past at Winterfell. Bran hears Meera yell for him to get Hodor off his arse to help. Bran takes control of Hodor WHILE he is still in the trance, thus controlling Present Day Hodor and affecting Past Hodor.

[Rockroi]

I have to say that Hodor's death scene is a point where even us "book purists" and those of us who are almost catatonic in our dislike for the show have to ask a very good question: Did "The Door" get this series back?  

I think its the best episode of the season (not saying a lot) but I think its the best episode since the Red Wedding; the only episodes that hold a candle to it since are the Purple Wedding, the opener of Season 4, The Mountain and the Viper and possible Hardhome.  

But Hodor's death did many things that are emblematic of the good from this story:

1. It answered a question the audience actually cares about: Many people wanted to know what "Hodoe" actually meant.

2. It answered the question in a deft, subtle and very clear way: Excellent use of magic, time travel and the characters' relationships.

3. It used characters we actually liked, cared about and were invested in.  Yeah, this was not Dorne or that wasted Kingsmoot nonsense; this was the main body of the fans' most favorite characters and it gave the audience something real.  

4. It used dramatic tension to give the audience a satisfying reveal.  The use of the slowly rising difficulty in the story combined with who it was happening to was fantastic.  It ws a dramatic moment even if most of us knew that Bran was likely going to escape.  

5. We saw a hero: Hodor was the hero; he did something he always had to do and he did it selflessly and bravely in spite of his own life.  He did it for Bran, one of the more universally loved characters.  Amazing use of everything.  

6. The Death actually advanced the plot: Unlike most recent deaths since the show surpassed the books, Hodor's death actually meant something.  It was done so well because it advanced the story - Bran escapes and the story progresses.  And the fact that the story lad back that point about young Hodor and Bran was perfect.  It bound everything together.  

I could go on but you get the point.  This scene was very reminiscent of Blackwater and Balor; the Red and Purple Weddings etc.  Nobody knew who would live and who would die and at the same time we saw this engrossing message about somebody the audience actually cares about.  Hodor rose to the occasion.  And unlike the deaths of characters we don't care about (Balon); characters we don't know (Doran Martell) or characters that a were only there to die (IAMSHEATHEFUNNYWHORE), Hodor has our attention and we feel it when he sacrifices himself for Bran and really for the story.  

Does this make up for the terrible story telling of, really, the better part of the last two seasons?  Does it make up for the fact we STILL don't know who sent the assassin to kill Bran in his room; does it make up for wasting characters like Doran, Stannis, etc?  I am not sure.  

But its a start that may help us all get to the finish.  

[TexasDirewolf]

37 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Absolutely was heartbreaking. I'm still numb. I'm so jaded and unmoved by deaths in this series' GoT. Pretty young innocent girl poisoned (Myrcella) - meh. Fat monosyllabic simpleton - floods of tears. Remarkable, isn't it? I don't think it's irrelevant that the former was D&D's doing whereas this one is pure GRRM.

 

22 minutes ago, Daemon I Blackfyre said:

This is very true. I personally think D&D are good narrative directors when they have something to work on, but when they don't... Oh, boy.
Myrcella's death was a very Meh moment for me too, Doran's made me just angry and Roose's was freaking DUMB. But Oberyn, Robb, Ned and all of the others that were killed off in the show, had awesome death scenes because Martin was behind it with his books.

Which makes the fact that GoT got far away from the books plots all the more sadder. In a year or two, we'll only be able to imagine what this adaptation could've been for us book readers, if George at least finished tWoW in time.

Just hope D&D manage to make Ramsay's death as enjoyable as Joffrey's. It can't be hard, even without the chapter from WINDS.

In fairness, I don't think it was intended for us to have the same emotional attachment to Myrcella as we had with Hodor. I don't think that has anything to do with who wrote the plot. Hodor's character was so compelling and serving in his time that most of us, without knowing it, grew to care deeply for him. Even in the books, I don't think anyone could honestly claim that Myrcella was a favorite. Hodor's death was more moving than Myrcella's because the character was more moving. 

[JonisHenryTudor]

5 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

I have to say that Hodor's death scene is a point where even us "book purists" and those of us who are almost catatonic in our dislike for the show have to ask a very good question: Did "The Door" get this series back?  

I think its the best episode of the season (not saying a lot) but I think its the best episode since the Red Wedding; the only episodes that hold a candle to it since are the Purple Wedding, the opener of Season 4, The Mountain and the Viper and possible Hardhome.  

But Hodor's death did many things that are emblematic of the good from this story:

1. It answered a question the audience actually cares about: Many people wanted to know what "Hodoe" actually meant.

2. It answered the question in a deft, subtle and very clear way: Excellent use of magic, time travel and the characters' relationships.

3. It used characters we actually liked, cared about and were invested in.  Yeah, this was not Dorne or that wasted Kingsmoot nonsense; this was the main body of the fans' most favorite characters and it gave the audience something real.  

4. It used dramatic tension to give the audience a satisfying reveal.  The use of the slowly rising difficulty in the story combined with who it was happening to was fantastic.  It ws a dramatic moment even if most of us knew that Bran was likely going to escape.  

5. We saw a hero: Hodor was the hero; he did something he always had to do and he did it selflessly and bravely in spite of his own life.  He did it for Bran, one of the more universally loved characters.  Amazing use of everything.  

6. The Death actually advanced the plot: Unlike most recent deaths since the show surpassed the books, Hodor's death actually meant something.  It was done so well because it advanced the story - Bran escapes and the story progresses.  And the fact that the story lad back that point about young Hodor and Bran was perfect.  It bound everything together.  

I could go on but you get the point.  This scene was very reminiscent of Blackwater and Balor; the Red and Purple Weddings etc.  Nobody knew who would live and who would die and at the same time we saw this engrossing message about somebody the audience actually cares about.  Hodor rose to the occasion.  And unlike the deaths of characters we don't care about (Balon); characters we don't know (Doran Martell) or characters that a were only there to die (IAMSHEATHEFUNNYWHORE), Hodor has our attention and we feel it when he sacrifices himself for Bran and really for the story.  

Does this make up for the terrible story telling of, really, the better part of the last two seasons?  Does it make up for the fact we STILL don't know who sent the assassin to kill Bran in his room; does it make up for wasting characters like Doran, Stannis, etc?  I am not sure.  

But its a start that may help us all get to the finish.  

I am actually glad Doran is gone. I just hope Martin has the courage to do is soon in Winds as well ;). 

[adiman83]

15 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

5. We saw a hero: Hodor was the hero; he did something he always had to do and he did it selflessly and bravely in spite of his own life.  He did it for Bran, one of the more universally loved characters.  Amazing use of everything.  

This is a matter of debate. Was it him holding the door, or was it Bran in Hodor's body? So the question is was Hodor a sacrifice (basically an expendable asset) or was he a hero? 

[Juggzy]

20 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

 Does it make up for the fact we STILL don't know who sent the assassin to kill Bran in his room

WE do know who sent the assassin to kill Bran.  It was Joffrey. 

 

[JonisHenryTudor]

3 minutes ago, adiman83 said:

This is a matter of debate. Was it him holding the door, or was it Bran in Hodor's body? So the question is was Hodor a sacrifice (basically an expendable asset) or was he a hero? 

If you look at his eyes, Hodor looked very uncomfortable. To me, it looked like Hodor was carrying out his one crucial order that he received as a child. If I recall, in seasons past Hordor's eyes glaze over when Bran is inside him. In this scene, it looked like just Hodor.

 

 

He did what he was told to do. He held the door.