Pile-O-Starks

And then there were two...

58 posts in this topic

It's just sad, now I actually fear for Ghost or Nymeria appearing becuase it'd just give those knuckleheads more ideas.

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1 hour ago, Jewel said:

Man, I really hate that they're killing off all the direwolves. I'm honestly thinking it has to do with budget. This entire scene was absolutely beautifully done and broke my heart, but the only downside to it is Summer's death. I just can't deal with how pointless it was.

But he died protecting Bran and trying to buy time from him to make it out of there? Of course I'd rather him not die, but if he is going too, I can't think of a better way for one of them to go out then trying to save their mate.

Would u rather of seen Summer flee and run away without trying to protect Bran? 

Edited by The Dames do Moan

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1 minute ago, The Dames do Moan said:

But he died protecting Bran and trying to buy time from him to make it out of there? Of course I'd rather him not die, but if he is going too, I can't think of a better way for one of them to go out then trying to save their mate.

Would u rather of seen Summer flee and run away without trying to protect Bran? 

Summer died too easily. I would much rather have seen Summer protecting Bran /and/ running away with him. 

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3 hours ago, Patrick Byrne said:

Yes, it would be nice to see Summer live on a bit longer in the books.  I thought the show's treatment of Shaggydog was rather unceremonious, perhaps a result of the (likely) compression of Rickon's storyline.  Ultimately the circumstances of Summer's death are too meaningful to ignore.  Winter has come, and with it we lost two of Bran's beloved longtime companions.  Goodness knows how he must be feeling.

What a story! It is rare that I feel physically down after fictional characters die.  Lucky for me the books are always on the shelf!

As an aside, I'd be interested to get your thoughts on companion-animals in general.  I've been thinking that all the companion animals will bite it before the end, thus ushering in the "post-magical" era so often seen at the end of fantasy series.  Then again, GRRM subverts the common fantasy tropes on a regular basis, so who knows!  No evidence to support this either way, but it is fun to think about.

 

 

You read my mind.  We all know GRRM is heavily influenced by Tolkein.  I always thought that the end of this series would basically kill off everything magical, dragons, children, greenseers (bye Bran) sorcery and issue in the age of man kind of like the end of the return of the King, but much darker because all the things and people we love die, not hop in a boat and travel to the undying lands.  

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47 minutes ago, Jewel said:

Summer died too easily. I would much rather have seen Summer protecting Bran /and/ running away with him. 

But Summer, no matter how badass, isn't going to kill 30 wights. don't get me wrong, I would of liked him to kill one or 2 more before getting got, but he isn't going to jump in and just all of sudden kill all of them.

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2 minutes ago, The Dames do Moan said:

But Summer, no matter how badass, isn't going to kill 30 wights. don't get me wrong, I would of liked him to kill one or 2 more before getting got, but he isn't going to jump in and just all of sudden kill all of them.

I also wouldn't expect him to kill all of them.

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I think Summer's death was harder for me than Hodor's.

If Ghost dies, I am so done.

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Pure speculation but I've been thinking on this again, and how the direwolves names have connections to their counterparts, and their possible fates:

 “Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives."

I'm wondering about Ghost, with his red eyes---red eyes are connected to Greenseer magic apparently, as said in the books.  The white Weirwood trees have red eyes, in the book Bloodraven had one red eye.  I wonder since Jon already "died" does this mean Ghost will be spared?

Now Nymeria (named after the 'warrior' queen--which definitely links up well with Arya's arc in the East, learning to fight ,etc),  has been leading a pack of wolves in the Riverlands for some time now...could this be a play on words somehow.....that in some way, out of all the wolves, she's the one that survives?

 

 

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15 hours ago, tinka10 said:

My sentiments exactly.

Jon is starting to see Sansa immersing herself in the game now, and becoming aware that he is nothing but a tool to her, a means to gain power. It doesn't help that Little Finger is still planting seeds in her mind, reminding her that it's her "half-brother's" army, not her army, that will be taking Winterfell. Would Sansa really hand over Winterfell to Jon? Her half-brother who she never really cared for until now? She's already lying to him...

And then there's the parallel with the theatre in Bravos. Arya having to kill the actress who plays Cercei, so that the younger actress who plays Sansa can rise in the ranks of power in the theatre. 

Anyone else thinks this will end badly for Sansa? Or is it just me over analysing?

This takes me back to the opening scene of this episode, we get a close up of Sansa with her needle. I think we may be setting up a showdown of possibly Jon/Arya v. Sansa/Tullys. The Blackfish and the Tullys would not back Jon if Sansa's around. Bitter sweet for Jon to learn of R+L=J and to still not be able to inherit Winterfell? I think Arya will get her chance to "skewer" her own sister for the Many Faced God after learning how much she will betray Jon, a trueborn Stark. 

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18 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

It is flat out odd that if the direwolves represent the Starkyness of the Stark kids, that Jon (whose parents are yet to be determined but at least one is not a Stark) still has Ghost. 

Well, if I remember correctly, one of the other Stark kids' parents (Catelyn Tully from Riverrun) is not a Stark too. And Jon is described as a typical Stark physically, he and Arya have the most prominent Stark features (in the books, at least).  But I think I know what you mean. I agree that in the show even Ghost doesn't play an appropriate role. And I really don't know about Nymeria. The viewers weren't reminded of her since Season 1. We'll wait and see.

Edited by Pumpkin G. Snark

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I know I'm being super optimistic and that D&D seem to have no regard for the importance of the dire wolves, but i noticed something upon rewatching the episode last night:

1. We don't actually see Summer die, and

2. More importantly, when the Night's King enters the cave, he walks right past the spot where Summer got swarmed. There was no dead wolf body that I could see. Is it possible we got faked out?

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I honestly think that where the direwolves are concerned that the books will be very different. Not saying that shaggy dog or summer won't die eventually, just I don't see it playing out that way.

The showrunners have said frequently that the wolves are expensive and a pain in the ass since they use actual animals plus cgi. As a result, they are often sidelined or not seen. Geroge on the other hand treats these animals with a lot of focus and attention and care: Lady's death was one of the most tragic things I have read; George uses them to highlight plot points (ie locking up your direwolf is never a good idea right robb and jon?); the warging abilities of Arya and Jon are completely absent in the book; the meeting of summer and ghost doesn't occur (if i recall correctly...that happens in the books right?) and soooo many more instances.

To me the lack of these devices tell me that the show has axed the direwolves as much as humanly possible, so truncating their stories and involvement and killing them off in places that its expedient with minimal fuss made sense to the showrunners. Shaggy as proof of Rickon's Identity, sure I buy that death having happened (I don't like it, and would love if the GNC was true...BUTit's a plausible death.). Summer dying to protect bran, I buy that too, Its easy and it makes sense.

But again..I dont think this is really how it'll play out in the books. The biggest reasons I have for believing this: the Umbers aren't disloyal in the books. Second reason: (tinfoil alert) I don't think summers name and subsequent death is symbolic of " Sooo Winter really... fer real this time... is coming cuz summer is dead" kind of symbolism here. Clever for the show, but not as clever as what I'm used to seeing from GRRM. I think summers name is more indicative of the summer that will come AFTER the winter. I mean, thats the vision Bran had when he named him, as a result, I just have a feeling (ok a HOPE lol) that he will be around to see it. I also just dont see GRRM glossing that quick over summers death. "and summer jumped into the fray" kind of thing. especially if the Hodor scene occurs at the same time. again, Im well aware that Im biased because I really really really frigging love the direwolf aspect of the plot and so my blind hope could be leading me to belive in smoke and mirror reasons. BUT even knowing all that I still think/hope their stories will be far more detailed and satisfying in the books. PS if ghost dies I riot.

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On 23/5/2016 at 9:45 AM, Princess of Ice and Fire said:

Nymeria to have a litter of direwolves

Wouldn't it take two direwolves to create a litter of direwolves?

 

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3 minutes ago, Princess of Ice and Fire said:

I am hoping Nymeria finds a male direwolf - or if none are around she gets reunited with Ghost. 

There were rumors that Nymeria's pack will be appearing this season. Fingers crossed.

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28 minutes ago, mattnj81 said:

There were rumors that Nymeria's pack will be appearing this season. Fingers crossed.

Looking forward to it! 

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7 minutes ago, Princess of Ice and Fire said:

Looking forward to it! 

Same here, I've been disappointed that she's been left out to this point. It's a shame, they could have had just a couple lines of dialogue here and there the past two seasons that mentioned a pack of wolves in the Riverlands. Have it come up at the small council, or have some smallfolk warn Brienne and Pod about it while they were traveling. I would say it was a missed opportunity, but GOT seems intent on downplaying the wolves' importance for some reason, so I guess it as intentional. 

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On 5/23/2016 at 10:52 AM, DireGhost said:

Starting to think the wolves really aren't significant at all. A friend just told me their only purpose might have been as a parallel when they are found. A stag killed the mother (or Ned) and left the pups (Stark kids) all orphaned and on their own.

They have so many human characters they probably had to find a way to cut mains, reducing worging into wolves makes a huge difference on that front. 

Also, huge production costs in time, money, etc. Likely they kept as much of the metaphor as they could, and dropped most of the action with the wolves. 

I still trip on Lady beings executed, what that means for Sansa's story though....

Grey Wind, Ghost, Nymeria and

Spoiler

Shaggydog, we know now (I'm writing during a rewatch of 6.5)

 Are all perfect parallels. Also Summer died and now the 3ER lives again...so maybe Bran is reborn in some way.

So Lady means Sansa figuratively died gng to KL, is reborn later as a leader etc? Clearly, her death didn't immediately follow...

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