[SPOILER] Can someone explain the ending of today's episode?

[Pilusmagnus]

2 minutes ago, DireGhost said:

Wow, that is incredible but it leads to this question. If he could do that, why the hell didn't he do it sooner?

Maybe because it would be dangerous to do it that fast, so he did it only because it was urgent.

[DireGhost]

Just now, Pilusmagnus said:

Maybe because it would be dangerous to do it that fast, so he did it only because it was urgent.

Or maybe the question should be, was he uploading HIMSELF or his knowledge? So is Bran still Bran or is he BR?

[Pilusmagnus]

Just now, DireGhost said:

Or maybe the question should be, was he uploading HIMSELF or his knowledge? So is Bran still Bran or is he BR?

According to the "Inside the Episode" he was only uploading his knowledge, yeah.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

1 hour ago, The King Beyond The Wall said:

I was planning on creating my own thread for this, let me know if I shoud after you guys read it, and I can definitely write it out better and much longer:

I'm going to go ahead and say that the "Hold the Door" scene is something Bloodraven had done himself (at least in the books or at least in the past)... Bloodraven had seen the past and the future, and he had seen this as the moment where Bran and he were lost (so he needed to save Bran in this moment, a moment that could play out differently in the books, but the outcome is that he saw they were both lost, and he needs to make sure Bran survives, be it at the cost of ruining Hodor's life).

So he went back in time to implant a memory in the past and that is why Hodor has been internally screaming "Hold the Door" ever since that dreadful day, awaiting his destiny (a purpose that Bloodraven had planted in his head). The way Bloodraven looked at Bran at the Tower of Joy when Bran had called to his father showed that Bloodraven himself had attempted to communicate with the past before and that he knows the consequences of doing it are dreadful, so much so his face is gripped by despair and sorrow; and as they wake he tells Bran that it's beautiful under the sea, but if you stay too long you will drown.

Patchface is definitely one his experiments with the past too, the fact that Patchface knew so many events from the future and the past, all memories intertwined into his brain and spat out through riddled words and songs proves that. Jeor Mormont's Crow is perhaps another example of an entity stuck in a time paradox continuum. When Bloodraven told Bran you will become me, he meant you will do to Hodor now what I had done to Hodor before you, so that you would understand the consequences of tampering with the past directly. That is why he never communicated to Bran through direct speech prior to meeting him, he communicated to Bran through the three-eyed raven and hints. It was built upon years and years of experimenting that he finally found a way to communicate with the past without the past causing the present to be damaged.

This is the only explanation which makes sense to me. That Bloodraven altered Hodor at the time when the present was Ned leaving for the Vale and he did this in response to his visions of the future invasion of the cave. Perhaps he had played different scenarios 1000s of times in his head. 

When they showed the scene of the yard at Winterfell (again). I also found it frustratingly weird that given so little time he had left to teach Bran, he chose to spent it watching the Stark children play in the yard & say their goodbyes! Wouldn't there be something more important to teach Bran?  Something more directly related to defeating the WW? If it were because this was the only way to save Bran & get him out of the cave, then spending time there, in the yard of Winterfell, makes sense (kinda).

[LifeRuiner]

3 hours ago, athmystikal said:

Is is possible that the 3EC is actually Bran himself?

No. In the books, Bloodraven is Brynden Rivers, a Targaryen bastard with a very happening biography. 

[rocksniffer]

15 minutes ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

This is the only explanation which makes sense to me. That Bloodraven altered Hodor at the time when the present was Ned leaving for the Vale and he did this in response to his visions of the future invasion of the cave. Perhaps he had played different scenarios 1000s of times in his head. 

When they showed the scene of the yard at Winterfell (again). I also found it frustratingly weird that given so little time he had left to teach Bran, he chose to spent it watching the Stark children play in the yard & say their goodbyes! Wouldn't there be something more important to teach Bran?  Something more directly related to defeating the WW? If it were because this was the only way to save Bran & get him out of the cave, then spending time there, in the yard of Winterfell, makes sense (kinda).

that is what bran was doing, watching family... but bloodraven knew what was going to happen...which is why he says listen to your friend...

aside from getting hodor ready to be hodor and able to hold the door...we also see that "walking bran" can not just be heard but also hear the present and act while in a trance...something we have not seen before

 

[TheSmallOther]

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

It was certainly a very moving scene, but the implications are very worrying, I agree. Seeing the past is fine, but intervening and changing it is not. We're veering into 'Back To The Future' territory here, or Doctor Who at its 'timey wimey' worst. Coming soon after Melisandre's 'mumble mumble haircut' resurrection stunt, it's all taking a turn for the cheap. I do hope GRRM is better than D&D here.

According to D&D, Hodor's fate was told to them by GRRM, they didn't create this part themselves. So yes, there will be back to the future in the books.

[Mayura]

21 minutes ago, Pilusmagnus said:

Maybe because it would be dangerous to do it that fast, so he did it only because it was urgent.

IIRC the "Inside the episode", one of the Ds says that, when Bloodraven quickly uploads his knowledge into Bran, Bran sees a lot of things but he doesn't understand what they mean yet. 

So I assume that BR didn't want to quickly pour his knowledge into Bran's mind, he wanted to take the time to show him step by step and to explain to Bran what was going on. Now, however, Bran is going to have to try to understand the visions he had on his own. 

[Mayura]

2 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

It was certainly a very moving scene, but the implications are very worrying, I agree. Seeing the past is fine, but intervening and changing it is not. We're veering into 'Back To The Future' territory here, or Doctor Who at its 'timey wimey' worst. Coming soon after Melisandre's 'mumble mumble haircut' resurrection stunt, it's all taking a turn for the cheap. I do hope GRRM is better than D&D here.

This is definitely the road GRRM is taking as well and it has been foreshadowed in the books, imo. Take that scene at the end of DWD (additional chapter UK, spoiler TWOW for other editions):

Spoiler

we see that both Ned Stark and Theon are able to "hear" Bran while he's using the weirwood network. So it was foreseeable that Bran would use the possibility to interact with other characters in the past - and in the present - to influence the events that were/are occurring.

From the moment we were told that Bran and Bloodraven (and generally greenseer) could travel through space-time to "observe" events, it was massively foreseeable, in my opinion, that a form of time-travel would occur in the story. 

I contemplated for a while the possibility for Bran to affect the past to prevent Jon from being killed or just to revive. Obviously, Mel did it in the end  but it would have been interesting, imo, to see Bran could affect the past and save Jon because Jon is a necessary instruments in the war to come.

[420faceless]

It's simple.

Bran warged into both young and old Hodor's minds, linking the two.

Young Hodor is doing in his mind what Old Hodor is doing, holding the door.

Young Hodor's mind is cornered when Old Hodor dies, and he becomes the angelic simpleton he is, a ghost of himself with his last moments his only imprint.  Young Hodor mind has been taken over at the moment of his future death, and is thrust into a corner of his own subconsciousness, much like Varymyr etc.  He's already died but has a subconscious fragment of himself guiding himself to his end-of-game purpose. Does this help?

[The King Beyond The Wall]

4 minutes ago, TheSmallOther said:

According to D&D, Hodor's fate was told to them by GRRM, they didn't create this part themselves. So yes, there will be back to the future in the books.

I just watched inside the episode. If anything this makes me even more confident of the theory I wrote on Page 2 (glad you guys like it). What they said does not necessarily mean this is EXACTLY what will happen in the books.

 

David says: We had this meeting with George Martin where we're trying to get as much information as possible out of him, and probably the most shocking revelation he had for us, was when he told us the origin of Hodor; how the name came about. I just remember Dan and I looking at each other when he said that and just been like HOLY SH!T.

Dan Weiss says: "It was just one of the saddest and most affecting things, even sitting in a hotel room and having somebody tell you that this was going to happen in the abstract, in some way, that 'hold the door' is the origin of the name Hodor, we just that that was a heart breaking idea".

[SongOfTheStarks]

4 hours ago, athmystikal said:

Sorry, but I still could not wrap my head around this idea. I can understand that Bran warged into Hodor in present and forced him to die for him. But Hodor was acting like that ever since he was introduced. He did not just start saying Hodor after today's events. I am sorry, I just dont know how to ask the question.

Anyway in a nutshell, this is what I want to know:
Did Hodor became simple minded after Bran warged into him and made him die? Its like the movie Interstellar?

I know exactly what you mean. I can understand Bran warging into Hodor and making him like that in the past but Hodor is already Hodor in the present, prior to this event. It would be ok if Hodor was normal in the present until this event, then i could understand it completely.

[DireGhost]

12 minutes ago, Mayura said:

IIRC the "Inside the episode", one of the Ds says that, when Bloodraven quickly uploads his knowledge into Bran, Bran sees a lot of things but he doesn't understand what they mean yet. 

So I assume that BR didn't want to quickly pour his knowledge into Bran's mind, he wanted to take the time to show him step by step and to explain to Bran what was going on. Now, however, Bran is going to have to try to understand the visions he had on his own. 

So does this mean Bran will no longer need the Weirnet to access these visions? He can be anywhere and process what was uploaded?

[Lady Mary of Queens]

Not since LOST has my brain been this fried from working out the timeline. Beautifully and tragically laid out.

[athmystikal]

I have read all the posts. Wow, so many interpretations, each one very deep. So the general consensus is that Bran cannot alter the past and hence change the present. Whatever he seemingly did/altered through his visions had already happened in the same timeline at some point.

It is a nice concept, but I fail to understand how this could be important to the story? If he cannot alter anything why introduce this confusing concept? Couldn't GRRM/D&D explain Hodor in some other way (some other trauma).

Also if everything had to happen this way, does that mean there is no free will and nobody is responsible for their actions - becuase none could have prevented it. I mean Jaimie trying to kill Bran, LF poisoning Jon, Theon taking Winterfell.. All those things had to happen for Bran to reach 3EC.

How does the Gods tie into all this? Especially The Lord of Light and the Old Gods, who have shown that they can affect the world in a significant way.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

3 minutes ago, 420faceless said:

It's simple.

Bran warged into both young and old Hodor's minds, linking the two.

Young Hodor is doing in his mind what Old Hodor is doing, holding the door.

Young Hodor's mind is cornered when Old Hodor dies, and he becomes the angelic simpleton he is, a ghost of himself with his last moments his only imprint.  Young Hodor mind has been taken over at the moment of his future death, and is thrust into a corner of his own subconsciousness, much like Varymyr etc.  Does this help?

So Bran warged into young Hodor through the Weirwood network to control present day Hodors body. 

When Bran wargs into (only) present Hodor (like in season 4) we can assume that Hodor is still there and able to sense what is going on without having control. Hodor, even though he is a simpleton, is aware of what is happening around him and is fearful. When Bran wargs into him he has an awareness of what has happened to him and undergoes this experience in the context of what is happening.

Thus, when Bran pushes through young Hodor into present day Hodor, Hodor in both times is sensing what is happening without having control, however young Hodor has no warning and no psychological construct. Young Hodor, without have a context for the experience, is thrust into a life or death situation & experiences sudden & pronounced fear which he cannot comprehend or explain. He just knows he must 'hold the door".

When present Hodor dies, forcing(?) Bran to exit both his and young Hodors body, young Hodor collapses in a state of psychological shock with his last command, he's last task of profound primal importance, "hold the door" being the only words he is able to convey. 

 

[420faceless]

10 minutes ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

So Bran warged into young Hodor through the Weirwood network to control present day Hodors body. 

When Bran wargs into (only) present Hodor (like in season 4) we can assume that Hodor is still there and able to sense what is going on without having control. Hodor, even though he is a simpleton, is aware of what is happening around him and is fearful. When Bran wargs into him he has an awareness of what has happened to him and undergoes this experience in the context of what is happening.

Thus, when Bran pushes through young Hodor into present day Hodor, Hodor in both times is sensing what is happening without having control, however young Hodor has no warning and no psychological construct. Young Hodor, without have a context for the experience, is thrust into a life or death situation & experiences sudden & pronounced fear which he cannot comprehend or explain. He just knows he must 'hold the door".

When present Hodor dies, forcing(?) Bran to exit both his and young Hodors body, young Hodor collapses in a state of psychological shock with his last command, he's last task of profound primal importance, "hold the door" being the only words he is able to convey. 

 

I think part of Hodor is in fact dead, as a result of the linking of young and old.  That's why he settles down into the softly muttered "hodor", as there's only a vestige of Hodor's actual consciousness remaining.  The rest is congenial and peaceful, like an angel, because he's mostly brain-dead and working on animal instinct, apart from the subconcious messaging and the young Willis still operating and helping Hodor act out his service of the Starks.

...or something like that, it's hard to nail down these dang closed time loops. :S

Varamyr in the beginning of tDoD has all of a sudden become a very important key to the theory here, I think.

[Barr1stanTheBold]

Hodor hodor hoddooor hodor, and hodor!!!!

[Castigear]

One thing of note is that 3ER clearly knew everything that would happen. He knew that holding Bran in the vision while he warged would do that to Hodor, but it was necessary for what had happened to happen, the self-consistency principle at work. 

As far as Hodor, as I mentioned elsewhere in the forum I half expected (before it became clear that Hodor was going to die) for Old Hodor to be "fixed" (for lack of a better term) when he finally reached the second half of the "feedback loop" he got caught up in...or perhaps with young Wyllis' consciousness being transported into old Hodor's body. 

 

Instead, Bran had connected himself, Wyllis, and Hodor...and when Hodor died, it abruptly jacked up part of Wyllis' mind. Bran is lucky he didn't get messed up too, for as Morpheus says, the body cannot exist without the mind. 

[Jon Snow Bengal]

12 minutes ago, 420faceless said:

I think part of Hodor is in fact dead, as a result of the linking of young and old.  That's why he settles down into the softly muttered "hodor", as there's only a vestige of Hodor's actual consciousness remaining.  The rest is congenial and peaceful, like an angel, because he's mostly brain-dead and working on animal instinct, apart from the subconcious messaging and the young Willis still operating and helping Hodor act out his service of the Starks.

...or something like that, it's hard to nail down these dang closed time loops. :S

Varamyr in the beginning of tDoD has all of a sudden become a very important key to the theory here, I think.

I don't think i would call Hodor brain-dead. Young Hodor seems just as much of a simpleton as old Hodor. To me it seems that Bran-inflicted damage is limited to the verbal centre.