[SPOILER] Can someone explain the ending of today's episode?

[Yukle]

17 hours ago, SteveD said:

...unless they have LF's teleporter.

It makes me laugh that no one can let it go. Including me.

[Forlong the Fat]

1 hour ago, athmystikal said:

I hope GRRM ditch the idea of all this time travel. As many have mentioned, the introduction of such mechanisms usually convolutes the story and fails to provide a proper closure. There will be lot more questions than answers at the end. My brain is not developed enough to comprehend the idea that Bran warged Hodor in the past which made him that way and it was all cyclical. I think I will just believe that 3EC warged Hodor a long time ago and he just wanted Bran to see it and understand how dangerous it could be.

For myself, I hope he doesn't dumb the book down to the level of most posters on this board. Likewise, I hope he doesn't omit killing wolves and others because people like them. 

[House Cambodia]

2 hours ago, Yukle said:

It makes me laugh that no one can let it go. Including me.

The Sand Snakes let it go - they haven't used it since offing the prince a while back.

[Lord Redbeard]

On 2016-05-23 at 1:32 PM, Rhollo said:

But doesn't that mean that the whole timeline while Hodor was hodor-ing must have been completely pre-determined so that the loop could close ?

What if Jamie in S1 would have been successful and killed Bran ? Or the assassin ? Would Hodor suddenly have gotten his brain unscrambled and regained his ability to talk ?

 

Yes it was pre-determined insofar that the future impacts the past. It's illogical, but how these things work.

If Bran would have been killed in the past, Hodors brain would never have been scrambled in the first place. So nothing to unscramble. Hodor would have grown up as Wylis.

God this shit hits me really hard. He essentially have to give his life TWICE for the fucking Starks. First his sanity and youth and then his actual life. If Bran get's out of this alive and rebuilds Winterfell/The North, Hodor deserves a fucking statue that would make the Titan of Braavos look like toy. 

[Ser Knute]

Very interesting thread, lots of good theories and ideas!

What happens to Wyllis is tragic... I think it shows Bran how interference in these threads or roots of time can impact the future, the negative is highlighted in this case sadly.  Bran learns that when he Wargs Wyllas/Hodor in the present while in a vision of the past it has some transference effect where Bran sees via the vision what his current/future act did to Wyllas and that it impacts Wyllas in the past, even though he warged him with good intentions.  It allows him to see the perils on a personal level, which is good if he learns from the experience, but is the sort of thing that will haunt Bran no matter what good deeds he goes on to do... he sacrificed a good man for the cause, his cause, though indirectly or inadvertently, it stings all the same.

Fabulous scene and episode in general, a few quibbles aside and even whether or not I've interpretated it correctly! 

[43ry5274rg4ry3n]

I had a read of all the posts in the thread up until page 5, so I'm really sorry if I repeat anything that was posted in the pages I didn't read. Now I think that the best explained statements from the ones I read are two: DaemonTheBlack's and TheKingBeyondTheWall's. However, I find both of them wrong and I will explain why.

In my opinion, the future is never predetermined and none can "visit" the future. The best that one can hope is to visit or predict one of the infinite versions of the future and still if it comes true, it is only by chance. In other words, there is no such thing as a "prophecy", or "seeing the future", there is only a good bet or a bad bet. 

Now that rules out almost directly TheKingBeyondTheWall's theory as they assume that the BR has already seen the events that happened in episode's 5 last scene and acts accordingly. Based to what I've written before, I don't believe that's possible.

Also, I can accept that in a fantasy world someone or someone's consciousness can visit the past, but none can change the present through the past. Let's say that one goes back in another point of the same timeline and they interact with reality. Then that creates a whole different timeline in which they might not even exist. In which case the logical thing to happen is that they disappear at the same moment they interact with the past. 

Now DaemonTheBlack say that Bran warged into Wyllis in the past- that would be interacting with the past, changing the past. The chance that in the new timeline Bran is at the same place at the same time is not likely. Bran's interaction does not create infinite alternate universes, it creates one out of infinite universes. The chance that it is exactly the same as the one before he went back and interacted with the past is just very small. 

I don't really have an explanation about what happened there... I just hope that this is the last time we meet concepts like these in show and books.

[Sigrid]

On 5/23/2016 at 4:33 AM, daemonTheBlack said:

Yes. He did not change anything... only relative to the story / timeline we are viewing. The past is already written, the ink is dry.

Bran did not accomplish anything. He simply did what he was meant to make this timeline possible. But his skill lets him understand the past, and with that knowledge he will (hopefully) influence the future for the better.

I know you are not trolling lol. If you are interested, read up on multi-verse and many worlds interpretation. 

This is the question for me.  I had really hoped that Bran would be a huge influence in the events to come, but I  had also speculated that Bran might influence the past as his ability to interact with people in the past seems to be unique.  From book knowledge I'm holding on to the idea that he can influence the future by visiting the "present" (See Theon/Reek), that's kind of why I was disappointed that they left that out.

I wonder though, can we reconcile a "what a happened, happened" rule for the past and still think that Bran can effect future events.  What I mean is, can he really influence destiny, or will what is meant to happen, happen regardless of what he does?  

 (How appropriate Jack Bender directed this episode as I'm remembering all kinds of Lost discussions on similar topics)

[Sigrid]

On 5/23/2016 at 5:01 AM, adiman83 said:

If memory serves, Bloodraven told Bran that the past is written and he can't change it, only see it. 

I had always thought before that he always said that because that was his own experience.  I think he was truly surprised that people they were watching could hear Bran.  Now i'm not so sure the extent to which "what happened, happened."

[Sigrid]

On 5/23/2016 at 6:55 AM, Rhollo said:

Hmm, that pretty much cheapens all the events since episode 1, because it removes the free will of the characters involved.

Jamie throwing him out of the window wasn't a dark-grey decision to silence a witness, because his hand was basically forced by destiny. Same with Theon taking winterfell and his men/the Boltons burning it down, and so on ...

I don't know that this show will get quite so heavy handed as to what is free will and what is destiny as other shows (I'm looking at you Lost).  Even though a time traveling Bran might not be able to change past events in the timeline, I still think characters are capable of exercising moral judgment.  There's no invisible hand of destiny forcing them. 

[Sigrid]

On 5/23/2016 at 2:41 PM, Pile-O-Starks said:

So you're saying Hodor chooses to die for Bran? I am not sure, because he clearly got warged. Did he get un-warged when Bran warged Wyllis?

I think that Bran had to warg him.  As we've seen in the past, Hodor is totally out of it in these kind of threatening situations.  Only Bran taking over can move him to definitive action.  Meera even yells at him to warg into Hodor.

[Sigrid]

On 5/24/2016 at 5:15 AM, SteveD said:

Also, how the hell are they going to outrun the WW with just a one-minute head-start? Hodor had to pull bran and they were slow, there's is no way they can outrun them (even with the big-man RIP they wouldn't be able to) unless they have LF's teleporter. Particularly as Bran has Lord Voldemort's mark on him now.

I wonder the exact same thing.  They barely made it with the whole group of them, how in the heck is Meera supposed to take care of them both?  Especially with his new special White Walker tracking device?  

I tend to think that either Summer or Hodor will actually survive their exodus from the cave and then die at a later point.  To be honest, I never thought anyone was leaving that cave and that Bran would get plugged into the tree. I figured they were all doomed (while staying in incredible denial that Hodor would be fine)

[Gi_Varotti]

I have a doubt that's driving me nuts. Sorry if it's already been asked but here it is:

About the coft creating the ww. I've read some explanations saying that the coft created the ww so they would protect them and the land from the first men. But hasn't the ww appeared *after* the pact between the coft and first men was signed? 

 

[Yukle]

33 minutes ago, Gi_Varotti said:

I have a doubt that's driving me nuts. Sorry if it's already been asked but here it is:

About the coft creating the ww. I've read some explanations saying that the coft created the ww so they would protect them and the land from the first men. But hasn't the ww appeared *after* the pact between the coft and first men was signed? 

 

Not necessarily.

They may have been created before the Pact was signed. The Children may not have been aware of the fact that the Others can reproduce without their assistance. So the Children may have signed the Pact assuming that the Others weren't an issue and would simply fade away.

Since the Others seem to be immortal, they may have captured the occasional human here and there but over time it added up. 2,000 years after the Pact was signed, the Children sought the First Men's help in killing them.

[House Cambodia]

3 hours ago, Gi_Varotti said:

I have a doubt that's driving me nuts. Sorry if it's already been asked but here it is:

About the coft creating the ww. I've read some explanations saying that the coft created the ww so they would protect them and the land from the first men. But hasn't the ww appeared *after* the pact between the coft and first men was signed? 

 

The Child in the show said "Men". I think the show is conflating the book's 'First Men' and Andals. It was an genocidal tree-killing Andal invasion that caused COFT to create such a weapon.

[RedShirt47]

9 hours ago, Sigrid said:

...I wonder though, can we reconcile a "what a happened, happened" rule for the past and still think that Bran can effect future events.  What I mean is, can he really influence destiny, or will what is meant to happen, happen regardless of what he does?..

There is no power or entity which is "Destiny". Whatever Bran decides to do is what Bran will do. But he will always have decided whatever that action. He can't come back from another future and make a different desicion.

If Bran sees the future in a vision and decides to do something different then the vision was wrong, as it didn't show Bran what actually happened in the future.
This is likely why the prophesies are always so vague, symbolic and open to interpretation. Propably the magic which allows time travel doesn't work very well with the future.

Time travel works differently in different movies. In 12 Monkeys it was a "Whatever happened, happened" timeline. In Dr. Who it's a Timey Wimey you can change the timeline scenario. Sometimes changes just cause an alternative universe. Star Trek has done different types in different places, so different writers on the same franchise don't always agree on how temporal mechanics work.

Best not to think too hard about this. It's like the Wights. Do they eat? Where do they get energy from? Do they rot and is it the cold that keeps them together? How long can they 'live'?
no point putting too much effort into figuring it out. Just go with it. With this one example we can just think of it as a loop that doesn't impact anything else.

I hope the show (and books) keep this simple, this is the only example of events being manipulated from a different time. It is only there to explain Hodor.

[Gi_Varotti]

5 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

The Child in the show said "Men". I think the show is conflating the book's 'First Men' and Andals. It was an genocidal tree-killing Andal invasion that caused COFT to create such a weapon.

So, if it's the case then we're assuming the coft created the ww after they signed the pact with the first men.

The wiki says the coft and the first men were at war for a long time before signing the pact. 

Quote

Eventually about 12,000 years ago, the children came in contact with the First Men, the first outsiders. These invaders from Essos brought with them bronze, great leathern shields, the first horses, and their own gods. They burned the great weirwoods as they came, leading to war between the two.

 

 

9 hours ago, Yukle said:

Not necessarily.

They may have been created before the Pact was signed. The Children may not have been aware of the fact that the Others can reproduce without their assistance. So the Children may have signed the Pact assuming that the Others weren't an issue and would simply fade away.

Since the Others seem to be immortal, they may have captured the occasional human here and there but over time it added up. 2,000 years after the Pact was signed, the Children sought the First Men's help in killing them.

Thanks! 

I got confused because the wiki says the others appeared after the pact but, as it's unknown from where they came from, they could very well been a coft creation. 

Quote

The Pact lasted for 4,000 years before the enigmatic Others invaded from the uttermost north, bringing death and destruction to both races, during an extended period of winter known as the Long Night. The children of the forest joined with the First Men, lead by the last hero, to fight against the Others in the Battle for the Dawn. Eventually the Others were driven back into theLands of Always Winter.

 

[House Cambodia]

5 minutes ago, Gi_Varotti said:

So, if it's the case then we're assuming the coft created the ww after they signed the pact with the first men.

The wiki says the coft and the first men were at war for a long time before signing the pact. 

 

 

Thanks! 

I got confused because the wiki says the others appeared after the pact but, as it's unknown from where they came from, they could very well been a coft creation. 

 

You're still conflating TV with books. I'm not sure the TV show refers to the pact. The show has massively dumbed down the matter.

[Ser Matris]

12 hours ago, Sigrid said:

I think that Bran had to warg him.  As we've seen in the past, Hodor is totally out of it in these kind of threatening situations.  Only Bran taking over can move him to definitive action.  Meera even yells at him to warg into Hodor.

This is the part where I'm still a little confused. Is the general consensus here that Bran was still warging present Hodor when Hodor died? Therefore, Bran sacrificed Hodor to save himself and Meera?

[athmystikal]

32 minutes ago, Ser Matris said:

This is the part where I'm still a little confused. Is the general consensus here that Bran was still warging present Hodor when Hodor died? Therefore, Bran sacrificed Hodor to save himself and Meera?

Yes, I think that is the general consensus.

Or it might be Hodor getting 'activated' when he heard 'Hold the door' which was imprinted in his memory when he was a child - like in Manchurian Candidate; but thats just something I read somewhere.

[StarksNTargs]

My take is that this seems to be like the movie Interstellar.   In other words, there aren't multiple time lines or anything like that and Bran can't change anything that has already happened.   There's one singular time line and if Bran meddles, then his meddling was always part of that singular time line.  In this case, he inadvertently created "Hodor" in the past by simultaneously green seeing Hodor when he was young and also warging into Hodor when he was older.   But again, this was unavoidable from the start because he didn't create a new or alternate time line by doing this.  His doing this was always part of the time line and it's always what caused Willas to become Hodor.

If Bran were to try to save his father, it could very well mean that his meddling is what caused Joffrey to decide to execute him in the first place but he could never actually save him.   As Bloodraven said, the past has been written and the ink is dry.  Him trying to meddle in the past is already accounted for.

I could of course be wrong, but that's the way it seems.