[SPOILER] Can someone explain the ending of today's episode?

[Gi_Varotti]

6 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

You're still conflating TV with books. I'm not sure the TV show refers to the pact. The show has massively dumbed down the matter.

You're right. I saw that as a book spoiler but it might not be one. 

[43ry5274rg4ry3n]

42 minutes ago, StarksNTargs said:

My take is that this seems to be like the movie Interstellar.   In other words, there aren't multiple time lines or anything like that and Bran can't change anything that has already happened.   There's one singular time line and if Bran meddles, then his meddling was always part of that singular time line.  In this case, he inadvertently created "Hodor" in the past by simultaneously green seeing Hodor when he was young and also warging into Hodor when he was older.   But again, this was unavoidable from the start because he didn't create a new or alternate time line by doing this.  His doing this was always part of the time line and it's always what caused Willas to become Hodor.

If Bran were to try to save his father, it could very well mean that his meddling is what caused Joffrey to decide to execute him in the first place but he could never actually save him.   As Bloodraven said, the past has been written and the ink is dry.  Him trying to meddle in the past is already accounted for.

I could of course be wrong, but that's the way it seems.

If there is one singular time line, in which Bran meddles and then everything happens as we know it, then what is going to happen when this timeline catches up with the moment where Bran time-traveled? Bran will go back again and meddle again! So the second time that happens, the timeline has to change.

[Forlong the Fat]

40 minutes ago, 43ry5274rg4ry3n said:

If there is one singular time line, in which Bran meddles and then everything happens as we know it, then what is going to happen when this timeline catches up with the moment where Bran time-traveled? Bran will go back again and meddle again! So the second time that happens, the timeline has to change.

If he's going to meddle twice, he already has meddled twice.  The principle is no different if he does it 1 or 100 times.  His meddling through time travel already is accounted for in the timeline because it already has happened.

[athmystikal]

6 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

If he's going to meddle twice, he already has meddled twice.  The principle is no different if he does it 1 or 100 times.  His meddling through time travel already is accounted for in the timeline because it already has happened.

But doesn't that make the whole story pointless? Also when did the timeline start? -  The moment Bran was born? What about the things that happened before he was born into this world to affect anything. I know this concept of linear timeline and what has happened happened because it has already happened is a good thought exercise. But how could it be possible in a physical sense (even if we accept magic)?

Would it be possible for Bran to see himself in the weirnet. For instance the day he fell from the tower?

I did not see the behind the episode video. But what does D&D say about the whole thing? Did they give any explanation?

 

[Forlong the Fat]

34 minutes ago, athmystikal said:

But doesn't that make the whole story pointless? Also when did the timeline start? -  The moment Bran was born? What about the things that happened before he was born into this world to affect anything. I know this concept of linear timeline and what has happened happened because it has already happened is a good thought exercise. But how could it be possible in a physical sense (even if we accept magic)?

Would it be possible for Bran to see himself in the weirnet. For instance the day he fell from the tower?

I did not see the behind the episode video. But what does D&D say about the whole thing? Did they give any explanation?

 

Once you have accepted time travel you have accepted the possibility of acting before birth. If Bran can travel to a time before his birth (and he can undoubtedly do that) and he can interact in that time (he can undoubtedly do this as well as shown in TOJ and Hold the Door in show and a couple of scenes in books) he can interact with a time before birth. There is no logical problem (again assuming you have accepted the possibility of "time travel"). 

Next question is the effect of these actions: do they alter events. The obvious answer in GOT is that the actions taken by Bran before his birth already have happened, so they already are accounted for. That's because of the simple fact that an earlier time comes before a later one. There is no "timeline" that starts at a certain point  there's simply the fact that earlier events happen before later ones  

Does this make the whole story pointless? I don't think so. It merely means that Bran can't really alter events through time travel. 

[athmystikal]

10 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Once you have accepted time travel you have accepted the possibility of acting before birth. If Bran can travel to a time before his birth (and he can undoubtedly do that) and he can interact in that time (he can undoubtedly do this as well as shown in TOJ and Hold the Door in show and a couple of scenes in books) he can interact with a time before birth. There is no logical problem (again assuming you have accepted the possibility of "time travel"). 

Next question is the effect of these actions: do they alter events. The obvious answer in GOT is that the actions taken by Bran before his birth already have happened, so they already are accounted for. That's because of the simple fact that an earlier time comes before a later one. There is no "timeline" that starts at a certain point  there's simply the fact that earlier events happen before later ones  

Does this make the whole story pointless? I don't think so. It merely means that Bran can't really alter events through time travel. 

I must disagree. I accept that Bran can 'see' the past. But he cannot be physically present there. In the Books he never actually 'goes' to the past. He simply 'sees' it. I think this is similar in the show. They just put Bloodraven and Bran in the past scenes just for more immersion. very much like Sherlock and Irene walking inside the crime scene in Sherlock TV show (where a guy gets killed by his own boomerang). None of the people (Ned, Benjen, Arthur Dayne..) sees Bran or Bloodraven. What I am trying to say is they do not have physical presence. So yes Bran can go and see something in past - even before his own birth. Just like us watching a video tape of events that happened before us - except he is not limited in perspective.

However I get the feeling that Bran could make the leaves move or start a small breeze etc.. But nothing more (this is from books). 

The argument that everything has already happened  and is going to happen again and again without end is pretty bad for a story like ASoIaF. For a sci-fi story like Interstellar, it is alright.
 

[Forlong the Fat]

6 minutes ago, athmystikal said:

I must disagree. I accept that Bran can 'see' the past. But he cannot be physically present there. In the Books he never actually 'goes' to the past. He simply 'sees' it. I think this is similar in the show. They just put Bloodraven and Bran in the past scenes just for more immersion. very much like Sherlock and Irene walking inside the crime scene in Sherlock TV show (where a guy gets killed by his own boomerang). None of the people (Ned, Benjen, Arthur Dayne..) sees Bran or Bloodraven. What I am trying to say is they do not have physical presence. So yes Bran can go and see something in past - even before his own birth. Just like us watching a video tape of events that happened before us - except he is not limited in perspective.

However I get the feeling that Bran could make the leaves move or start a small breeze etc.. But nothing more (this is from books). 

The argument that everything has already happened  and is going to happen again and again without end is pretty bad for a story like ASoIaF. For a sci-fi story like Interstellar, it is alright.
 

Everything hasn't already happened, and everything isn't going to happen again and again. Everything that already has happened already has happened. In 2016, things that happened in 2000 already have happened. When Bran is in the cave, the things that happened many years earlier already have happened. 

The rest of your post is a story you're making up yourself. In the books and the show he interacts with people in the past. The limitations you state are ones you made up yourself. 

[athmystikal]

18 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Everything hasn't already happened, and everything isn't going to happen again and again. Everything that already has happened already has happened. In 2016, things that happened in 2000 already have happened. When Bran is in the cave, the things that happened many years earlier already have happened. 

The rest of your post is a story you're making up yourself. In the books and the show he interacts with people in the past. The limitations you state are ones you made up yourself. 

As I have said multiple times, I am not forcing my theory on anyone. I am simply trying to get a better theory than mine which I could understand as well.
Maybe I misunderstood you, but I get the feeling that you think i am claiming that I am right. That is not the case. I am simply asking doubts about your theory

Now you said 'In 2016, things that happened in 2000 already have happened'. You are perfectly right. But Whatever happened in the year 2000(and before) cannot be dependent on things that happened in 2016.

[Forlong the Fat]

2 minutes ago, athmystikal said:

As I have said multiple times, I am not forcing my theory on anyone. I am simply trying to get a better theory than mine which I could understand as well.
Maybe I misunderstood you, but I get the feeling that you think i am claiming that I am right. That is not the case. I am simply asking doubts about your theory

Now you said 'In 2016, things that happened in 2000 already have happened'. You are perfectly right. But Whatever happened in the year 2000(and before) cannot be dependent on things that happened in 2016.

What you're hung up on is that you fail to accept that time travel entails traveling to a different time. If I am born in 2016 and travel to 2000 I am in 2000. The things I do in 2000 occur in 2000. And 2000 comes before 2016. If I kill someone in 2000 he will be dead beginning in 2000, not beginning in 2016.  At least this is the logic of time travel applied in the show. 

[athmystikal]

25 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

What you're hung up on is that you fail to accept that time travel entails traveling to a different time. If I am born in 2016 and travel to 2000 I am in 2000. The things I do in 2000 occur in 2000. And 2000 comes before 2016. If I kill someone in 2000 he will be dead beginning in 2000, not beginning in 2016.  At least this is the logic of time travel applied in the show. 

I would have accepeted that if Hodor was shown as a normal man until last episode.

PS: Looks like we have been arguing in two threads. I only just relaized that that was 'you' in the other thread . Ha ha. I honestly though that was someone else. 

Anyway we have hijacked two threads already. So I am going to wait until one of us is proven wrong

[Xcorpyo001]

If this time travel stuff is cyclical and ‘if you do something, it already happened’, what is the point of it? He can’t go back to save his family, or stop the WW for activating, or prepare the south for the invasion, because it would have happened already.

So he creates Hodor because he needs Hodor to get to the 3ER, so he can create Hodor, get marked by the NK, get a download and go back home. Him being marked will probably bring down the protections around the Wall, so he’ll probably start the real invasion.

What is the win in all of this? What will change once he becomes the 3ER? He won’t be able to turn back time and stop himself of passing through the Wall while still marked. All he accomplished in going north is finding out some stuff the 3ER could have sent him in a vision while he was still at Winterfell.

Or maybe him bringing down the Wall was supposed to happen because a future Bran saw it happen and couldn’t do anything to change it? What is the point of this? It will mean Bran is just a robot doing some things he has to do, because it has to happen, because time travel. So this time travel stuff is actually the worst thing that could have happen to him, because we have a future Bran that knows how crappy things are going to get, but can’t do anything to prevent it from happening.

Maybe in the end he will find out some information about how to stop the WW, but the only reason they have to stop them is because Bran brought them south of the Wall to begin with. Otherwise they would just bang their heads against the Wall and its magical protections, as they did for the last 8000 years.

But the world badly needs a new 3ER apparently. The question is, why?

[House Cambodia]

44 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

a future Bran saw it happen and couldn’t do anything to change it? What is the point of this? It will mean Bran is just a robot doing some things he has to do, because it has to happen, because time travel. So this time travel stuff is actually the worst thing that could have happen to him, because we have a future Bran that knows how crappy things are going to get, but can’t do anything to prevent it from happening.

HODOR!

 

I'm with you all the way. I hate this development - if it's in the book I'll be really dismayed.

[Tucu]

3 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

HODOR!

 

I'm with you all the way. I hate this development - if it's in the book I'll be really dismayed.

The time manipulation element has been in the books for quite a while. Less clear but still there. In ACOK Jon has a dream about Bran being a weirwood and having 3 eyes; then Bran shows Jon the wildling army through Ghost's eyes.

[House Cambodia]

Just now, Tucu said:

The time manipulation element has been in the books for quite a while. Less clear but still there. In ACOK Jon has a dream about Bran being a weirwood and having 3 eyes; then Bran shows Jon the wildling army through Ghost's eyes.

Dreams, visions, prophecies are all fine. Observing the past, future, distant scenes are all elements in the Planetos universe I have no problem with suspending my disbelief. This is a different category, for me. Maybe GRRM will use it more skilfully in TWOW.

[Xcorpyo001]

4 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The time manipulation element has been in the books for quite a while. Less clear but still there. In ACOK Jon has a dream about Bran being a weirwood and having 3 eyes; then Bran shows Jon the wildling army through Ghost's eyes.

 

Book Jon is a warg, so he sees the wildling army through Ghost’s eyes using his own power, because he can warg Ghost while he is asleep. Maybe he has a prophetic dream or something, but that doesn’t mean it was Bran showing him the army himself.

 

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

Book Jon is a warg, so he sees the wildling army through Ghost’s eyes using his own power, because he can warg Ghost while he is asleep. Maybe he has a prophetic dream or something, but that doesn’t mean it was Bran showing him the army himself.

If you re-read that passage you can see that it was Wierwood Bran that shows Jon how to control his warging dreams.

Quote

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice. Before him the Skirling Pass opened up into airy emptiness, and a long vee-shaped valley lay spread beneath him like a quilt, awash in all the colors of an autumn afternoon

 

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, Tucu said:

If you re-read that passage you can see that it was Wierwood Bran that shows Jon how to control his warging dreams.

 

No time manipulation there. though.

[Tucu]

18 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

No time manipulation there. though.

Contemporary Bran was not connected to the Weirwood net yet and he didn't have the knowledge or power to help Jon. We could argue that this was not time manipulation, but Bloodraven pretending to be Bran; but then we could also argue that it was not future Bran that changed Hodor, just Bloodraven making preparations.

[Ran]

59 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Contemporary Bran was not connected to the Weirwood net yet and he didn't have the knowledge or power to help Jon. We could argue that this was not time manipulation, but Bloodraven pretending to be Bran; but then we could also argue that it was not future Bran that changed Hodor, just Bloodraven making preparations.

You're forgetting that in Bran's last ACoK chapter, Bran explicitly says that while down in the crypts he managed to reach Ghost and talk to Jon. The "Weirwood" imagery may indicate that his proximity to the heart tree's roots might have had an effect... or it could just be an interesting, somewhat prophetic image of Bran's eventual destination.

But in any case, that conversation between Bran and Jon is contemporaneous with ACoK, not Bran of the future projecting himself into the past to talk with Jon.

[43ry5274rg4ry3n]

15 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

If he's going to meddle twice, he already has meddled twice.  The principle is no different if he does it 1 or 100 times.  His meddling through time travel already is accounted for in the timeline because it already has happened.

So, trying to understand your POV, let's say that Bran time travels in the year 281 or something like that. Then where has he come from?