(spoilers) Theory about the Night King...

[Grayce Hornwood]

4 minutes ago, farm_ecology said:

But the NK hasnt been defeated?

That's why I said for the time being  They were driven back after the Long Night, and they obviously remained dormant long enough that the people of Westeros thought they were a myth.

[The Chequered Raven]

1 hour ago, DireGhost said:

The next question for me is when exactly (if at all) did the CotF lose control of the WW?

Just a guess, but I would say:

The moment they untied the blue eyed from the heart-tree...

[Grayce Hornwood]

1 minute ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Just a guess, but I would say:

The moment they untied the blue eyed from the heart-tree...

My thoughts as well. In Bran's second vision, the tree is split in two. Perhaps that's a by-product of the NK breaking free of his bonds.

[YOVMO]

5 hours ago, Dc Castillo said:

I don't think that was the Night's King that the COTF created because the Night's King didn't come about until after the Wall was built to keep the WW north of the wall.  He was also the 13th lord commander of the NW

Correct. If anything, the Night's King was human and married to a walker before he declared himself a king and ruled over a 13 year period of terror from the nightfort before being stopped by King in the North teamed up with Joromun.

[YOVMO]

40 minutes ago, DireGhost said:

Dude can raise armies of people from the dead, he is obviously incredibly powerful.

I don't know if that is enough of an answer. This isn't Dumbledore seeing through Harry's invisibility cloak.

In what sense is Bran actually "there" It isn't like he is there but invisible. He can walk. Bloodraven can leave the tree. What is it that this incredibly powerful dude is seeing? Is it that he is seeing his essence? Is he seeing the disturbance that Bran's appearance at a particular time happens (the way you don't see a rock dropped in the water but you know it is there because you can see the ripples?)

[Jewel]

The only reason I think the origin of the Others will play out differently in the books is because of GRRM's quote saying they're "a different sort of life" and "inhuman".

I guess after the creation the Other the CotF created is "inhuman", but he used to be human before. I think they're an entirely different race in the books. 

I could be completely wrong though.

[Grayce Hornwood]

4 minutes ago, Jewel said:

The only reason I think the origin of the Others will play out differently in the books is because of GRRM's quote saying they're "a different sort of life" and "inhuman".

I guess after the creation the Other the CotF created is "inhuman", but he used to be human before. I think they're an entirely different race in the books. 

I could be completely wrong though.

That obsidian dagger to the heart likely would have killed him, and whatever magic the CotF used has kept his body alive for the past few thousand years. I'd say that definitely qualifies as "inhuman"  

[Masha]

 

28 minutes ago, Jewel said:

The only reason I think the origin of the Others will play out differently in the books is because of GRRM's quote saying they're "a different sort of life" and "inhuman".

I guess after the creation the Other the CotF created is "inhuman", but he used to be human before. I think they're an entirely different race in the books. 

I could be completely wrong though.

You forget that GRRM is a comics buff, and in Marvel Comics there is race of Inhumans who were basically humans till Aliens experimented on them and gave them powers. Now they call themselves "Inhumans".

So taking this into account, it would explain GRRM comments about the Others being "inhuman"

[ssls6]

If I had to put a timeline to it.....

 

1) CotF create a WW to fight the FM

2) The FM and CotF make a pack (why?, did the WW play into it)

3) The long night happens (or did the WW cause it?)

4) the FM and CotF fight the WW back, build a wall, build winterfell, CotF imbue one or more of these places with magic

5) the Night's watch was formed along with the CotF to hold the WW in check

6) the NK, Andals, Wildlings, Targaryans, and other shit happens

7) Brandon Stark gets born (did this signal the WW to become active again)

 

So who is the 3ER really? who does he work for?  Why bring Bran north of the wall based on all we've learned.  If the 3ER was good, then leave Bran south of the wall.

[Patrick Byrne]

1 hour ago, Grayce Hornwood said:

Having only seen the episode once (planning a re-watch for this evening) I seem to recall that Leaf mentioned something about needing protection, after Bran confronted her. It seems most likely that they initiated the transformation to create a "weapon" to protect them against the First Men.

As to when the transformation occurred, I'm taking clues from the landscape of the two visions Bran had. In the first, when he saw the man being transformed, it looked like spring: sun was shining; grass was green; etc. In the second vision, at the same tree, it was clearly winter: snow on the ground; no grass; weirwood tree was dead. All of this leads me to believe that the first vision happened before the Pact (after all, why would they require a weapon to protect them if they'd already established peace with the FM?), and the second vision, where the NK touches Bran, happened during or after the Long Night.

Great points all, I will keep them in mind when in re-watch also.   

[Minuteman]

One thing that I haven't seen discussed is the sword the Night's King was wielding. The WWs all use spears made of ice but the Night King had a great sword with a white blade that looked to be made of something far more solid than ice. Makes me think this is the original Ice (vice the Valyrian steel one that Tywin melted down to make Oathkeeper) and hence the Night King a Stark. Or he got it by killing the Stark who had it at the time. But my bet is that he was at one time the head of House Stark which is how he came to possess it. But this season has demolished pretty much all me theories so far so maybe nothing.

[ummester]

4 hours ago, Grayce Hornwood said:

I'm not so sure about this. If the NK was warging BR the whole time, why would BR tell Bran "It's time for you to become me..." Doesn't seem like the NK wants to convert Bran, seems like he wants to kill him.

Perhaps it's supposed to seem like that.

Re the OP - I think the man who was turned into the Nights King was a First Man but I think that it was after the pact and due not to the original invasion of the First Men bust successive invasions of humans into Westeros.

This man is probably a Stark and possibly the Last Hero, also, IMO. What was likely happening as the Andals began to invade is that the Starks fought with the CotF to protect the wierwood trees but they were loosing (this was the Age of Heroes) and that the Last Hero was the Stark that allowed himself to be turned into the Nights King.

[Grayce Hornwood]

51 minutes ago, ummester said:

Perhaps it's supposed to seem like that.

Re the OP - I think the man who was turned into the Nights King was a First Man but I think that it was after the pact and due not to the original invasion of the First Men bust successive invasions of humans into Westeros.

This man is probably a Stark and possibly the Last Hero, also, IMO. What was likely happening as the Andals began to invade is that the Starks fought with the CotF to protect the wierwood trees but they were loosing (this was the Age of Heroes) and that the Last Hero was the Stark that allowed himself to be turned into the Nights King.

This is an interesting thought as well. But my original post had less to do with the Night's King's identity, and more to do with the question of whether or not he could be a warg. I like to think that it might have been a Stark, just because the irony/symmetry/whathaveyou would be really compelling. 

[a bastard with a harp]

In the scene where Bran see the army of the undead and the White Walkers, it is clear that none of the WW could see him, the same goes for the undead. Except for the Night King.

From what the show has presented to us it is safe to assume that only a greenseer can see another one inside the visions. As shown in the visions shared by 3ER and Bran, and as shown in the last episode the Night King. If you go back in the scenes with Jojen and Bran the same happens, both Jojen and Bran can interact with each other in the green dreams.

If the Night King really is a greenser and after Bran has been mark, does that mean that he can follow Bran across visions and anywhere else he goes ? How does that influence Bran's actions and his further development ?

[Grayce Hornwood]

5 minutes ago, a bastard with a harp said:

In the scene where Bran see the army of the undead and the White Walkers, it is clear that none of the WW could see him, the same goes for the undead. Except for the Night King.

From what the show has presented to us it is safe to assume that only a greenseer can see another one inside the visions. As shown in the visions shared by 3ER and Bran, and as shown in the last episode the Night King. If you go back in the scenes with Jojen and Bran the same happens, both Jojen and Bran can interact with each other in the green dreams.

If the Night King really is a greenser and after Bran has been mark, does that mean that he can follow Bran across visions and anywhere else he goes ? How does that influence Bran's actions and his further development ?

That is what it seems like. As 3ER said to Bran, once he was marked, the NK was able to enter the cave. It will be interesting to see if the NK is able to follow Bran across/over/under the Wall as well. 

[ummester]

2 hours ago, Grayce Hornwood said:

This is an interesting thought as well. But my original post had less to do with the Night's King's identity, and more to do with the question of whether or not he could be a warg. I like to think that it might have been a Stark, just because the irony/symmetry/whathaveyou would be really compelling. 

I think in the Age of Heroes, when the First Men and Children existed with their pact, most humans were wargs and/or greenseers. Back then, when the land was green as seen in episode 605, humans were more in touch with nature. So yes, more than likely the Nights King was a greenseer and possibly a warg as well, before the Children stuck a rock in his chest.

I envisage Westeros as being a place that was once like Middle Earth, or a high fantasy type of universe, that has had it's natural beauty and magic corrupted over eons of humans invading and combatting the indigenous magical creatures.

Recall the Giant's song:

Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants,

my people are gone from the earth.

The last of the great mountain giants,

who ruled all the world at my birth.

Oh the smallfolk have stolen my forests,

they’ve stolen my rivers and hills.

And the’ve built a great wall through my valleys,

and fished all the fish from my rills.

In stone halls they burn their great fires,

in stone halls they forge their sharp spears.

Whilst I walk alone in the mountains,

with no true companion but tears.

They hunt me with dogs in the daylight,

they hunt me with torches by night.

For these men who are small can never stand tall,

whilst giants still walk in the light.

Oooooooh, I am the LAST of the giants,

so learn well the words of my song.

For when I am gone the singing will fade,

and the silence shall last long and long

 

For me, this song is sadder than the death of Ned, or Robb, or even Hodor - and represents the heart of what the saga is about as I understand it - humans are destroying Westeros.

[House Cambodia]

29 minutes ago, ummester said:

For me, this song is sadder than the death of Ned, or Robb, or even Hodor - and represents the heart of what the saga is about as I understand it - humans are destroying Westeros.

Interesting you should say that. I created a thread to put forward my theory that I think is regarded to way beyond the pale by most readers. Basically I'm suggesting that the saga - or at least the mythical beginning and the endgame read like an allegory of man's relationship with the Earth. The impending Long Night represents the effects of man-made climate change, and the Others our rape of the environment and the 'Gaian' response. The period between the beginning and end - the 'game of thrones' is us focussed on our petty interests driven by selfishness, greed , jealousy, ignorance, unaware of what we're doing to the planet. So, in ASOIAF we're heading towards a Noah's Flood/Revelations scenario. The Stark siblings will be the 'family of Noah', leading the very few survivors, with Bran guiding them back to a right relationship with nature. The Others, then, are not 'evil' - they are the Earth/Planetos righting the imbalance caused by the real perpetrators, humans.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

the show has obviously changed another element to this story.  Everything I'm hearing from the rewatch is the man that was tied up against the Weirwood getting the obsidian driven into his chest is in fact the Night King in the show. Beinhoff and Weiss pretty much confirm it without saying it directly.  

 

That just sucks, they are dumbing down the story.

[AnarchoPrimitiv]

Just so everyone knows, the show creators refer to the main white walker as the Night's King, but they have clearly stated in an interview that even though they refer to him as the Night's King, HE IS NOT the historical figure of the Night's King aka The 13th Lord Commander of the nigt's watch (Old nan said to Bran that many guess that the Night's King, the historical figure, was an Umber or a Bolton, but she specifically says that he was a Stark).  I don't mention any of this to support or disprove any theories, I only mention it because it's obvious that a lot of commentors are passing off incorrect information as fact.

[AnarchoPrimitiv]

4 hours ago, ummester said:

Perhaps it's supposed to seem like that.

Re the OP - I think the man who was turned into the Nights King was a First Man but I think that it was after the pact and due not to the original invasion of the First Men bust successive invasions of humans into Westeros.

This man is probably a Stark and possibly the Last Hero, also, IMO. What was likely happening as the Andals began to invade is that the Starks fought with the CotF to protect the wierwood trees but they were loosing (this was the Age of Heroes) and that the Last Hero was the Stark that allowed himself to be turned into the Nights King.

But the only counterpoint to that is the fact that the Andals never conquered the north, and according to A World of Ice and Fire, the North was never in danger of falling to the andals like everywhere else in Westeros.  Also, your theory is incompatible with the timeline...the Last hero was a first man who had helped to end the long night 8,000 years ago and defeat the white walkers (before the Andals ever even kknew about westeros), so if the Last Hero had defeated the white walkers, how could he himself be turned into the first white walker?