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(spoilers) Theory about the Night King...


Grayce Hornwood

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1 hour ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Watch the post credit show, and after the thrones.  I didn't think so either until I rewatched.

its not said directly but it's damn sure implied.  

yes. Implied. Giving a narrative clarity to them as wants it, or room to interpolate all the stories from the book for them as dont

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18 hours ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

I posted this in another thread, a few days before this episode aired:

I've been thinking more about the nature of the Others, and this is the conclusion I came to:

(Disclaimer: This post combines info from the books and the TV show, a dangerous game, I know.)

Ok, based on prevews/photos that are floating around for the upcoming GoT on HBO, it's forced me to radically rethink what the Others are. Based on the information we have available, this is what I believe:

1. The Children Of The Forest Created The Others

This one is something I am now 99% sure of. I can see the conversation going something like this:

1st CotF: Men are a weak, cowardly lot.

2nd CotF: Their bodies cannot stand the cold, and their eyes cannot see in the darkness.

1st CotF: They cannot be trusted, but maybe they can be controlled.

From this, they decided to take a man and imbue him with ice magic. This man rose as the first Other, and turned on the CotF and began creating more of the Others. Who was this guy? Well...

2. The first Other was a Stark (most likely Bran The Builder, the earliest First Man to take the name "Stark")

I believe the First Men interbred with the CotF. This was part of the Pact at the Isle Of Faces. These First Men would eventually become House Stark, and explains why some Starks (who admit to having the blood of the First Ment) have greenseer ability, warging, and why the ancient Kings Of Winter are described as having "barely human features", because they were part CotF and part Man. Over the centuries, the CotF part of their heritage has been bred out so they look basically human, but they still retain some of the magic. This also explains why the CotF in season 6 seem to have been aged upward, because as much controversy as D&D like to court, having the Starks look like pedophiles is a step too far even for them. (no matter if they explained "No! This nine year old looking girl is actually nine HUNDRED years old! Really! See, we... Hey, where'd everyone go?)  Anyway, the first Other: After Men broke the pact and started encroaching on the CotF land again, one of the CotF tricked her human lover into being the subject of the conversion. Originally, things went well, Brandon helped to build the Wall with his new ice magic, but as Man is wont to do, his newfound power corrupted him and he felt he should rule, not just be a slave to the CotF. He turned on his creators, and his warging powers manifested in new ways: The ability to warg the dead. His ice powers also meant he could convert more humans just like him. He was not the hero of the Long Night: He was the villain. So who was the Last Hero?

3. The Last Hero was Brandon "The Builder" Stark's youngest brother: Osric Stark

Brandon Stark (now a ramapaging Other) was stopped by his own family: His little brother Osric. He made his stand at the modern location of Winterfell. There's something about this location that gave Brandon's brother the power to defeat him. Osric drove the Others back, and added his own magic to the Wall that his brother built to ward off the Others from crossing it again. But on the other side (har!) of the Wall, the Others continued to wreak havoc unchecked. Osric became the 2nd Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and ruled for 60 years. His heirs becam the Kings Of Winter (since he himself defeated the Others and "winter") and established their base at the source of their power: Winterfell. But the CotF, in a final desperate attempt to retake control of their monsters (I am your monster, Brandon Stak) thought "He was once a Man, and Men bow to their kings. We will make a king for them." Side note: In an even MORE ironic twist, the Wall, which was built to keep Men out of the North, was now being used by Men to keep the Others out of the South. They continued to build/add to it to keep the Winds Of Winter (like we saw in Hardhome) out of the south.

4. The Night's King was another Brandon Stark who fell in love with a CotF (NOT A FEMALE OTHER!) and like his ancestor, was tricked and made into an Other himself

In the time since the CotF made the first Other, they continued to perfect the spell. They wanted their power back, they wanted their monsters to obey them, so just like the bride of Frankenstein, they made a king for the Others: The 13th Lord Commander, also named Brandon Stark. (The Starks don't seem to be very creative with names...) At first, it worked, the new Night's King used his superior powers (and family connection) to bend the other Others (double har!) to his will. And, as GRRM likes to show, history repeats: the Night's King rebelled against his creators and slaughtered the CotF. But where did he come from? What is the Night's Watch?

5. The Night's Watch was originally established to watch out for the CotF

At some point, the pact between the First Men and the CotF broke down and they again entered into open war (Probably Men again wanted more land). The CotF can see in the dark, so it would stand to reason that they would attack Men at night. Brandon, a (magically) gifted architect, help build castles the CotF land, moving forever northward, to watch for them at night: The Night's Watch. Brandon was himself the 1st LC of the Night's Watch Men looked to him to lead them, since he had magic due to his CotF lineage (see #7) In the ultimate ironic twist, once Brandon became the first Other, the CotF had him build the Wall right up next to the very same castles he himself built as the ultimate middle finger to Men, a kind of "So, you think your castles are pretty good, yeah? How about THIS!" But what about the Men north of the Wall?

6. The Wildlings are Men who were sympathetic to the CotF's cause and wanted to keep the connection between Man and nature like they learned from the CotF

This also explains why the some Wildlings can warg: they also interbred with the CotF at some point in the past. Essentially, the Wildlings and Starks share common ancestors, somewhere in the mists of time.

7. The Kings Of Winter had a strong connection to nature since they were part CotF, possibly up to the ability to control the weather.

"Winter is coming." You mess with the Kings Of Winter, they will warg animals to attack you, they will warg into trees to spy on you, they will summon a blizzard and bring winter down on you. The ancient Starks were powerful, and this is how they made all other Northern houses (fierce in their own right) bend the knee to House Stark. Winterfell has some powerful magic that is the source of Stark power. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, or they lose their power.

 

This theory is a bit half-baked, would love to hear what others think of it or if they can think of some other interpretations. I wanted to write more, but I'm still hashing through things in my own mind. And it stll doesnt answer an important question: Where have the Others been all this time, and why are they back now? Have they been trying to summon another Long Night and have just now succeeded? Were they waiting until they built up a strong enough army from Craster's babies?

 

Have at it!

Well, to pick at it trying to combine both as well to flesh it out...

1 - We saw as much, no quibbles.  Can't imagine it'll differ in the books... it just makes sense.

2 - Brandon the Builder is from the Age of Heroes, which began *after* the war between the First Men and the Children; the Pact is year 0, if you will.  He founded House Stark, built Winterfell, Storm's End and the Wall.  Possibly other things.  So the Others had to have already existed prior to his being, and probably why the First Men had their "come to Jesus" moment and signed the Pact.

3 - The Last Hero was also in the Age of Heroes, in the Long Night.  I think this is the same person as Azor Ahai, the Prince That Was Promised, and all kinds of other names they say in the World book.  With said World book, and the revelation of an Eastern wall, I'd imagine there's more than 1 of these people, for each culture (irrelevant to TV show, but plays into the books possibly).  Could be Orsic, but it generally sounds to me that it's Bran, who built the Wall in response to their victory after securing the assistance of the Children.  The Night's Watch was created at this time, during the Battle for the Dawn.

4 - Yes, couldn't have been him... but is the show King and book King the same dude?  The Old Nan stories are that he was of course the 13th Lord Commander, and they never say he became an Other.  The creation of the first Other we see on the show is before that land was Always Winter, so before the Wall and the Night's Watch.

5 - Nay.  Created during the Long Night and responsible for pushing back the Others further North after being supplied by the Children with Obsidian weapons.

6 - Just a difference of opinion; I think the Wildlings are unfortunate First Men that happened to already live north of where the land narrowed to be conducive enough to build a wall.  It wasn't always a frozen tundra, and I think they were just resentful at first, then over time became natural enemies and Others became a myth as no attacks ever came for millenia.

7 - Possibly.  I think you're on to something, but I think they were trained by the Children on what magic actually resides within the weirwood.

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26 minutes ago, Grayce Hornwood said:

If they can't be killed, truly, then that makes the whole fight against them seem rather pointless, doesn't it? :unsure:

Well, a) it was just a passing thought as I contemplated why they might have shown the same one be "killed" multiple times, but b ) if it WAS true, maybe the whole fight against them IS pointless.  Make love, not war.

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Just to clear up an earlier question about the actor(s) playing the NK

Per the credits from this episode: Screenshot to show that Vladimir Furdik is credited under the "Guest Starring" tab; Screenshot to show I didn't just go make this in Photoshop. Richard Brake, the actor who has previously played the NK, is not credited in this episode.

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i think that the theory that the Night King Bran is the Builder - the first Stark is quite good because the CotF apparently create WW to fight men and Bran the Builder was probably killing lots of them. so Bran build Winterfell and the Wall to counter this. Overtime, without a place to go, the WW turn against their creators and the CotF have no choice but to offer their magic (breeding with the First men) so that the First men will lend their force to fight the WW (and thus the first Night Watch). together, they managed to keep the WW away from 8000 years. but they have returned.

maybe that is why Bran has to be the one because he shares the same name and has the same ability. 

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3 hours ago, ummester said:

If we assume the show is the cut down version of the books, cherry picking what matters to move the main narrative along faster, then all that matters is the girl hobbits created the White Walkers to protect their trees from people.

Your clarity is noted.  I agree - this is what D&D want the viewers to take from the story.  Their viewpoint of what we (the viewers) can understand, what they can reasonably explain, and how much they want to spend leads us to ...
girl hobbits created WWs to protect .....

My cynicism is sincere.

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1 hour ago, LadyAlisande said:

Remember that the people who have told the story of the Night King as 13th Lord Commander may be unreliable narrators. It might be just a myth invented to explain some crazy stuff that went down around that time. The actual Night King may have always been the guy we saw created by the CotF, and the 13th Lord Commander may have been someone controlled and usurped (warg'd?) by the Night King and eventually killed.

Sort of like, "Vader betrayed and murdered my father" was true in a way, the 13th Lord Commander "became" the Night King in a way.

Just a thought on how what we know so far in the books could coincide with what the show has depicted.

 

This might be true, but I don’t know if the first WW could simply pass through the Wall to get to the LC and control him, or take his place. Nor could he use his magic to control him over/through the Wall.

I think that even the Children north of the Wall have problems using their magic south of the Wall. So they used a human from the south to do it(Bloodraven, who was also a man of the NW, so attuned with the magic of the Wall via the NW’s Oath.)

 

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Total Tinfoil here but after reading all the posts about the CoTF coupling with men, maybe Mel and Kinvara (who are glamoured, but are really ancient) are the remnants of these men/cotf relationships - lost immortality (human) yet still have magic (CoTF), have human bodies (human) but can change the age, shape, and appearance of the bodies (CoTF), are female (CoTF) but can manipulate men (human).  Just a crazy thought....

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On 5/23/2016 at 9:41 AM, DireGhost said:

The 13th LC of the NW was the Night's King according to what story? Even in the books it is passed down more as legend and not as fact. All records of him were destroyed after he was defeated. It could all be made up.

There's also the question whether Night's King is a person or a title?  It could be that the WW created by COTF is the original Night's King and there have been others.  

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2 hours ago, God-Emperor of Yi Ti said:

so do you doubt that the COTF made the first Other 

and they have shown a man become the other, without hammering it on the head that he is the night king , or the night's king or great other or anything else..

And the virtual confirmation that there is no Great Other. 

 

I previously drew a connection, between the nightfort king and great other because of his name being stricken from the record. While it may be the case that the first Other is the king of the Others it doesn't necessarily follow that it has to be so. At least from a book perspective it's still possible that the Others didn't have a king before the nightfort king was driven away from the wall.  In the real world it seems likely to me that all the pagan gods were just simply human kings and chieftains who became deified after death. So, in a way, it's not unusual to me that a human that became a supernatural being might be deified as an evil god by ancient people.

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1 minute ago, Status Crow said:

Semi-related: I think 3ER is Bran. His parting words were that it's time to become him. Some of his first were, "You will never walk again, but you will fly."

That would certainly be the twist to trump all twists, lol :) 

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13 minutes ago, Status Crow said:

Semi-related: I think 3ER is Bran. His parting words were that it's time to become him. Some of his first were, "You will never walk again, but you will fly."

I'd rather have Bran Stark and the builder to be one and the same, inspiring some people with dreams and whispers to build the wall and Storm Ends ( I believe the magic ward of SE has to be meaningful, the death of a dragon? Bran might even be the one they called the Storm God, bringing down the Castle 2 times I believe until it was strong enough.)

I believe the last influense we will see Bran leave in the past is with Rheagar, pushing him to take Lyanna and give birth to the one who will fight against the darkness.

For people saying, how could the 13th lord commander be the first Other?why was there 12 of them even before the White Walkers appeared? Well Bran inspired people to build the castle where the wall is and man it (with dreams and whispers) in order to be ready when they come.

The NK in the show probably wanted to kill Bran for him not to go back, not inspire the building of the wall and maybe even lose the first long night to the Others 10,000 years ago.

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22 hours ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

I posted this in another thread, a few days before this episode aired:

I've been thinking more about the nature of the Others, and this is the conclusion I came to:

(Disclaimer: This post combines info from the books and the TV show, a dangerous game, I know.)

Ok, based on prevews/photos that are floating around for the upcoming GoT on HBO, it's forced me to radically rethink what the Others are. Based on the information we have available, this is what I believe:

1. The Children Of The Forest Created The Others

This one is something I am now 99% sure of. I can see the conversation going something like this:

1st CotF: Men are a weak, cowardly lot.

2nd CotF: Their bodies cannot stand the cold, and their eyes cannot see in the darkness.

1st CotF: They cannot be trusted, but maybe they can be controlled.

From this, they decided to take a man and imbue him with ice magic. This man rose as the first Other, and turned on the CotF and began creating more of the Others. Who was this guy? Well...

2. The first Other was a Stark (most likely Bran The Builder, the earliest First Man to take the name "Stark")

I believe the First Men interbred with the CotF. This was part of the Pact at the Isle Of Faces. These First Men would eventually become House Stark, and explains why some Starks (who admit to having the blood of the First Ment) have greenseer ability, warging, and why the ancient Kings Of Winter are described as having "barely human features", because they were part CotF and part Man. Over the centuries, the CotF part of their heritage has been bred out so they look basically human, but they still retain some of the magic. This also explains why the CotF in season 6 seem to have been aged upward, because as much controversy as D&D like to court, having the Starks look like pedophiles is a step too far even for them. (no matter if they explained "No! This nine year old looking girl is actually nine HUNDRED years old! Really! See, we... Hey, where'd everyone go?)  Anyway, the first Other: After Men broke the pact and started encroaching on the CotF land again, one of the CotF tricked her human lover into being the subject of the conversion. Originally, things went well, Brandon helped to build the Wall with his new ice magic, but as Man is wont to do, his newfound power corrupted him and he felt he should rule, not just be a slave to the CotF. He turned on his creators, and his warging powers manifested in new ways: The ability to warg the dead. His ice powers also meant he could convert more humans just like him. He was not the hero of the Long Night: He was the villain. So who was the Last Hero?

3. The Last Hero was Brandon "The Builder" Stark's youngest brother: Osric Stark

Brandon Stark (now a ramapaging Other) was stopped by his own family: His little brother Osric. He made his stand at the modern location of Winterfell. There's something about this location that gave Brandon's brother the power to defeat him. Osric drove the Others back, and added his own magic to the Wall that his brother built to ward off the Others from crossing it again. But on the other side (har!) of the Wall, the Others continued to wreak havoc unchecked. Osric became the 2nd Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and ruled for 60 years. His heirs becam the Kings Of Winter (since he himself defeated the Others and "winter") and established their base at the source of their power: Winterfell. But the CotF, in a final desperate attempt to retake control of their monsters (I am your monster, Brandon Stak) thought "He was once a Man, and Men bow to their kings. We will make a king for them." Side note: In an even MORE ironic twist, the Wall, which was built to keep Men out of the North, was now being used by Men to keep the Others out of the South. They continued to build/add to it to keep the Winds Of Winter (like we saw in Hardhome) out of the south.

4. The Night's King was another Brandon Stark who fell in love with a CotF (NOT A FEMALE OTHER!) and like his ancestor, was tricked and made into an Other himself

In the time since the CotF made the first Other, they continued to perfect the spell. They wanted their power back, they wanted their monsters to obey them, so just like the bride of Frankenstein, they made a king for the Others: The 13th Lord Commander, also named Brandon Stark. (The Starks don't seem to be very creative with names...) At first, it worked, the new Night's King used his superior powers (and family connection) to bend the other Others (double har!) to his will. And, as GRRM likes to show, history repeats: the Night's King rebelled against his creators and slaughtered the CotF. But where did he come from? What is the Night's Watch?

5. The Night's Watch was originally established to watch out for the CotF

At some point, the pact between the First Men and the CotF broke down and they again entered into open war (Probably Men again wanted more land). The CotF can see in the dark, so it would stand to reason that they would attack Men at night. Brandon, a (magically) gifted architect, help build castles the CotF land, moving forever northward, to watch for them at night: The Night's Watch. Brandon was himself the 1st LC of the Night's Watch Men looked to him to lead them, since he had magic due to his CotF lineage (see #7) In the ultimate ironic twist, once Brandon became the first Other, the CotF had him build the Wall right up next to the very same castles he himself built as the ultimate middle finger to Men, a kind of "So, you think your castles are pretty good, yeah? How about THIS!" But what about the Men north of the Wall?

6. The Wildlings are Men who were sympathetic to the CotF's cause and wanted to keep the connection between Man and nature like they learned from the CotF

This also explains why the some Wildlings can warg: they also interbred with the CotF at some point in the past. Essentially, the Wildlings and Starks share common ancestors, somewhere in the mists of time.

7. The Kings Of Winter had a strong connection to nature since they were part CotF, possibly up to the ability to control the weather.

"Winter is coming." You mess with the Kings Of Winter, they will warg animals to attack you, they will warg into trees to spy on you, they will summon a blizzard and bring winter down on you. The ancient Starks were powerful, and this is how they made all other Northern houses (fierce in their own right) bend the knee to House Stark. Winterfell has some powerful magic that is the source of Stark power. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, or they lose their power.

 

This theory is a bit half-baked, would love to hear what others think of it or if they can think of some other interpretations. I wanted to write more, but I'm still hashing through things in my own mind. And it stll doesnt answer an important question: Where have the Others been all this time, and why are they back now? Have they been trying to summon another Long Night and have just now succeeded? Were they waiting until they built up a strong enough army from Craster's babies?

 

Have at it!

I think your point are very interesting here are my two cents 

Since " Men " in general is very shitty at keeping the long term Pact or agreement or peace , after generation maybe part of some tribe /kingdom etc start to cut down  the tree and invade the " still standing forest" part of the Pact( Brandon the bloody blade ?). In my head,  it could mean land from somewhere from isle of face up ward , since if one want to sign treaty it should be sign in the place that on close to the border of reign that two nations control and for extra black water rush or the neck seems to be nice natural border line.I theorized that it actually 

Based on that some of CotF got really pissed off and create the first Other ( and slowly a few more until it got out of their control and the long night began).  Then CotF ( maybe not the same group as those who create the others) finally decide to help men defeat or banished the others plus a few of those CotF  who created the others to far north land. ( Fun thought was this part of land became always winter because of the others power ?) 

Then some source of second pact was draw by men and group of CotF who helped men in the long night to build the wall. In order for the wall to have magic that not allow the others to go beyond it , the first men had to give the most magically powerful human a,k.a human that born greenseer to stuck in the tree. The first might be Bran the builder. ( He could use his power to build winterfell). Using his power in combination of CotF magic to build the Wall  that had magic ability to deny the other to pass it( or even to restricted for the others to pass that tree or their power to turn human baby into white walker ). Therefore , every generation the few remaining tribe of CotF and the imprison greenseer use greensight type of power to find the next generation to replace him /her and maintain the power that keep others coming near the wall.

This could continue for thoundsands of years. It might just that the previous greenseer could find the replacement quick enough before the power faded. The closed call one might be the Knight king's time ( so the that why Night King's wife can be with him at Night fort and demand the night king to send human baby to them so they can turn into  white walker). So the others reappearance might be due to that the last greenseer is dying and his power is fading and Bran need to replace him.  

Some of CotF could still live in  the neck or passed down the knowledge to crangnog men and that why House Reed seems to at leas some t understand greensight power and not dismiss that what jojen dreamed is  just you know kids' dreams of fantasy. ( if not  why on earth Howland who is Ned's friend sent only two of his  teenage children to winterfell but not fucking army or himself to help with war effort. Oh right cause you are sending Greensighter / Future telling ability to the stark, oh man how thing could have been better for Stark if they believe some of Jojen's dreams). 

Of cause there is ton of hole in this theory and high probability of non of this is canon in either the book or the show. 

These are my thinking based on casual reading of the book and the show.

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11 hours ago, Status Crow said:

Semi-related: I think 3ER is Bran. His parting words were that it's time to become him. Some of his first were, "You will never walk again, but you will fly."

Is or will become? 'Three-Eyed Raven' appears to be a title, not a name. The ex-3ER 'uploaded' his greenseer knowledge into Bran; now Bran needs to process, understand and use it. When he has gained full use of his capabilities, he becomes the next 3ER.

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Aegonzo and Daorys - great thinking, guys (and welcome Daorys). One possible flaw I see with D is the fella who was sacrificed at the weirwood tree - that was in summer. I doubt he built the Wall of 700' of ice; i.e. the Wall must have been built during the Long Night. 

I think the scene being set in the summer is a big reveal actually. It wrecks a few theories about the dude being an Other of the NK in my mind, if we accept the NK/Others can't exist outside the Winter.   

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12 hours ago, YorEmixam said:

 

For people saying, how could the 13th lord commander be the first Other?why was there 12 of them even before the White Walkers appeared? Well Bran inspired people to build the castle where the wall is and man it (with dreams and whispers) in order to be ready when they come.

The NK in the show probably wanted to kill Bran for him not to go back, not inspire the building of the wall and maybe even lose the first long night to the Others 10,000 years ago.

teh scene from the land of always winter in Season 4, episode 4 had 13 NK like dudes. I suspect that was not a coincidence. 

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5 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Aegonzo and Daorys - great thinking, guys (and welcome Daorys). One possible flaw I see with D is the fella who was sacrificed at the weirwood tree - that was in summer. I doubt he built the Wall of 700' of ice; i.e. the Wall must have been built during the Long Night. 

I think the scene being set in the summer is a big reveal actually. It wrecks a few theories about the dude being an Other of the NK in my mind, if we accept the NK/Others can't exist outside the Winter.   

This was my thought as well. We can confidently assume that the weirwood is somewhere north of the wall, based off the fact that it was spring/summer in the first vision, and completely covered in snow and ice in the second (that, and the presence of the wights and NK/Others is fairly telling). Like you said, the Wall had to have been built during the Long Night.

I'm still trying to work out when that second vision occurred. Was it in the past, during the Long Night? Was it in the present? I find it less likely that it might have been in the future, but who knows?

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I was looking for members of the Night's watch in the wight army in the second vision, noticed some black clothing but nothing definitive. Reasoning being if members of NW are in the wight army then it is post long night since NW was founded afterwards.

Also, just wondering since I can't remember but has the pact between the children of the forest and the first men ever actually been mentioned directly in the show? Wondering that all this fuss over the creation of the NK not matching up with the timeline post pact might actually be a confusion as to whether the show actually acknowledges the instance of the pact itself. If the show doesn't then it simply could be a case of the children making the NK to combat the first men, losing control, making peace and then taking on the NK together with the first men during the long night and chasing the NK north of the wall.

Naturally the novels would follow their own narrative including the pact.

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