US Election: Saint Bernard the obstinant

[DanteGabriel]

40 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

 

 

 

I don't really blame him. The rules of politics bind him into this bit of dishonesty. His other choices are to quit now, and lose a lot of his power at the Convention, but remain honest, or keep running and admit that he knows he's not getting the nomination, and yet again remain honest. Both of these choices would bury his movement and he'd be another footnote in history, like Howard Dean.

Poor Bernie. Forced be dishonest. It's like... politicians have to say things they don't mean sometimes? I wonder if Hillary Clinton has ever been forced into dishonesty, or if she just lies because she's so evil.

As for Howard Dean, he was a very effective DNC chief from 2005 to 2009. He implemented a 50 state strategy for the 2006 midterms and Democrats, aided by Americans suddenly realizing the depths of Bush's incompetence, took the House and Senate. He also helped get Obama elected. I quite like Howard Dean and wish he was still DNC chair.

If the Democrats are getting ready to dump Wasserman Schultz, which I fervently hope to be the case, is it wildly unrealistic to hope that Bernie goes for the for the job?

[The Marquis de Leech]

26 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

How so? People want him to lay off Hillary, so let him go after Trump.

But he wouldn't be. Trump would try to get him to say negative stuff about Clinton.

[Martell Spy]

 

Quote

 

Poor Bernie. Forced be dishonest. It's like... politicians have to say things they don't mean sometimes? I wonder if Hillary Clinton has ever been forced into dishonesty, or if she just lies because she's so evil.

As for Howard Dean, he was a very effective DNC chief from 2005 to 2009. He implemented a 50 state strategy for the 2006 midterms and Democrats, aided by Americans suddenly realizing the depths of Bush's incompetence, took the House and Senate. He also helped get Obama elected. I quite like Howard Dean and wish he was still DNC chair.

If the Democrats are getting ready to dump Wasserman Schultz, which I fervently hope to be the case, is it wildly unrealistic to hope that Bernie goes for the for the job?

 

 

 

 

Fair enough. I like Howard Dean as well and I don't mean to insult him. I just couldn't think of a better historical example. I know he did great work in 2006 especially. But his movement did in essence die out, or Bernie wouldn't be here picking up the torch. There was unfinished work in turning the party harder left.

Well, which is more moral? If you believe that your movement will reduce inequality, do you refuse to lie, even if you destroy your movement and thus increase income equality? I think his supporters value that he doesn't appear to be as corrupted by Wall Street, etc. as many politicians more than they value some story about him being honest and chopping down cherry trees.

I'd love if Bernie got that job, but I doubt it'll happen.

[DanteGabriel]

5 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

Fair enough. I like Howard Dean as well and I don't mean to insult him. I just couldn't think of a better historical example. I know he did great work in 2006 especially. But his movement did in essence die out, or Bernie wouldn't be here picking up the torch. There was unfinished work in turning the party harder left.

Well, which is more moral? If you believe that your movement will reduce inequality, do you refuse to lie, even if you destroy your movement and thus increase income equality? I think his supporters value that he doesn't appear to be as corrupted by Wall Street, etc. as many politicians more than they value some story about him being honest and chopping down cherry trees.

I'd love if Bernie got that job, but I doubt it'll happen.

Dean's movement didn't die out. It became Obama's movement. Obama consciously built on Dean's 50 State Strategy during his election. Obama was the exciting progressive alternative to Hillary Clinton in 2008. Dean did a lot of good by playing ball with the party after he lost the nomination. I think Bernie should learn some lessons from him.

Your excusing of Bernie's duplicity because it's in the service of a greater good shows a lot of double think. Do you suppose it is possible that Hillary Clinton also thinks that she could do the most good and so her lies are in service of a greater good too? Or is she just an evil liar who lies for her own selfish ends? Bernie cannot be as incorruptible as you seem to imagine him to be if he is being self-servingly dishonest.

But hey, let's talk about Howard Dean some more. He endorsed Hillary Clinton in 2014 and has remained in her camp since. If the Great Progressive Hope of 2004 and the best DNC chair of the last generation supports Clinton, despite coming from the same state as Bernie, does that count for anything?

 

[TrackerNeil]

4 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Your excusing of Bernie's duplicity because it's in the service of a greater good shows a lot of double think. Do you suppose it is possible that Hillary Clinton also thinks that she could do the most good and so her lies are in service of a greater good too? Or is she just an evil liar who lies for her own selfish ends? Bernie cannot be as incorruptible as you seem to imagine him to be if he is being self-servingly dishonest.

But hey, let's talk about Howard Dean some more. He endorsed Hillary Clinton in 2014 and has remained in her camp since. If the Great Progressive Hope of 2004 and the best DNC chair of the last generation supports Clinton, despite coming from the same state as Bernie, does that count for anything?

 

No, it doesn't. Baelor the Blessed himself could vouch for Clinton and, to some, it wouldn't matter. Honestly, I cannot recall a more conventionally qualified candidate for the White House who has received so little credit for the things she has accomplished. 

[The Marquis de Leech]

3 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Honestly, I cannot recall a more conventionally qualified candidate for the White House who has received so little credit for the things she has accomplished. 

Al Gore?

[BloodRider]

15 hours ago, Swordfish said:

I think what you are seeing is a good parallel to what happened to the GOP over the last ten years, in that the DNC created this monster, and now are  scratching their heads and picking up their torches when it turns on them.  

My god.  How's the view up on the cross?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

No, it doesn't. Baelor the Blessed himself could vouch for Clinton and, to some, it wouldn't matter. Honestly, I cannot recall a more conventionally qualified candidate for the White House who has received so little credit for the things she has accomplished. 

Off the top of your head without looking anything up, what in your opinion, is her single greatest accomplishment? 

[BloodRider]

6 hours ago, mormont said:

Did anyone claim they weren't partisan? The argument RBPL makes appears to me to be explicitly so: that's his whole point, that this decision is harmful to the party Sanders claims to be representing.

And why is it that any criticism of a decision is somehow conflated with making that decision illegal? I mean, are you trying to outlaw RBPL's free speech now, by disagreeing with it? Am I trying to outlaw yours? This idea that criticising someone is anti-free speech is nonsense.

Beyond that, it is literally helping Trump.  What possible reason would Trump have for debating Sanders if it didn't help Trump's campaign?

[DanteGabriel]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Off the top of your head without looking anything up, what in your opinion, is her single greatest accomplishment? 

How about the SCHIP, which provided health insurance to millions of poor kids, or getting an agency formed within the Justice Department to specifically address violence against women? 

What are Bernie's accomplishments?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

How about the SCHIP, which provided health insurance to millions of poor kids, or getting an agency formed within the Justice Department to specifically address violence against women? 

What are Bernie's accomplishments?

I'm not making a pro-Sanders argument. My point is that I see people say all the time how Clinton has so many accomplishments and yet they often fail to name more than one or two of them. She wasn't the sponsor of any legislative accomplishments during her time in the Senate and her tenure as Secretary of State was a mixed bag. I'm not saying she's never done anything, but I feel the claim that she's accomplished a lot is kind of overblown. And for what it's worth, your former Senator played a much larger role in the passing of SCHIP than Clinton.

[TrackerNeil]

35 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Off the top of your head without looking anything up, what in your opinion, is her single greatest accomplishment? 

Managing to remain popular despite repeated, ceaseless and largely baseless slanders against her.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Managing to remain popular despite repeated, ceaseless and largely baseless slanders against her.

What? That's not an accomplishment and it's also not true.

[TrackerNeil]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

What? That's not an accomplishment and it's also not true.

I think that anyone who's managed to stand up against absurd accusations like murder has to be congratulated, particularly when that same person manages to win several elections and very nearly became the Democratic nominee in 2008.

As to popularity, you and I have gone back and forth over this. Clinton's approval ratings were very high when she was SecState, and politicians always become less popular when they are running for office. She's also sounding thrashing Sanders among Democrats, which also indicates just how strong support for her is.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

1 minute ago, TrackerNeil said:

I think that anyone who's managed to stand up against absurd accusations like murder has to be congratulated, particularly when that same person manages to win several elections and very nearly became the Democratic nominee in 2008.

As to popularity, you and I have gone back and forth over this, and I think you're just wrong. Clinton's approval ratings were very high when she was SecState, and politicians always become less popular when they are running for office. She's also sounding thrashing Sanders among Democrats, which also indicates just how strong support for her is.

Did you mean to say she is popular among Democrats?  Among everyone else, she has the second highest unfavorability rating among presidential candidates.  Not to mention that she's destroyed the popularity of the name Hillary for an entire generation.

[TrackerNeil]

Just now, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Did you mean to say she is popular among Democrats?  Among everyone else, she has the second highest unfavorability rating among presidential candidates.  Not to mention that she's destroyed the popularity of the name Hillary for an entire generation.

See previous post.

[DanteGabriel]

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I'm not making a pro-Sanders argument. My point is that I see people say all the time how Clinton has so many accomplishments and yet they often fail to name more than one or two of them. She wasn't the sponsor of any legislative accomplishments during her time in the Senate and her tenure as Secretary of State was a mixed bag. I'm not saying she's never done anything, but I feel the claim that she's accomplished a lot is kind of overblown. And for what it's worth, your former Senator played a much larger role in the passing of SCHIP than Clinton.

Well I think it's worthwhile to distinguish between a resume and accomplishments, and while Clinton has the best resume of any candidate in a long time, it's fair to point out that she didn't sponsor much major legislation as a Senator and that her SoS tenure was a mixed bag. But who among the candidates this year has accomplished much? Certainly doesn't seem like Bernie got a lot of legislation passed either. What passes as an "accomplishment" in a political environment characterized by unprecedented obstruction and appalling laziness and fecklessness in Congress?

To my memory, the accusation that Clinton hasn't accomplished much smacks a lot of the double standard that often exists for women, that they have to work harder to be accepted as competent.

[S John]

51 minutes ago, BloodRider said:

Beyond that, it is literally helping Trump.  What possible reason would Trump have for debating Sanders if it didn't help Trump's campaign?

Yea, I think they will obviously disagree on most things but that Trump will attempt to show that they have common ground (on things like TPP, money in politics) in an effort to try to snag some of Bernies working class voters. I think that is what it's really about.

[Ormond]

1 hour ago, Simon Steele said:

What would happen if Hillary was shot down by the supposed scandals? Aside from it being hugely divisive and problematic, I think even worse would be throwing out someone like Biden and throwing Sanders out completely who definitely has the most votes is succession.

Did you just use the term "throwing out" to mean two opposite things in the same sentence? 

[Swordfish]

1 hour ago, BloodRider said:

My god.  How's the view up on the cross?

What cross are you referring to?