Bakker's TGO Excerpts II: Mining our Merest Fraction [Spoilers]s

[Baztek]

3 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I don't think it will be 18 months. I'm hoping it's not even 12, but I suspect 12 would be optimum.

Of course, what would be awesome is if Bakker is able to get Book 1 of the Last Series ready for 2018, or 12 months after The Unholy Consult, but I suspect that may be asking too much.

I think people missed this from Pat's review, so I will reiterate: this book has massive cliffhangers, like ADWD+. If you really utterly despise cliffhangers of that kind, I would strongly recommend buying the book but not reading it until TUC hits.

In terms of actual appearances, yes. In terms of what they do, no. This is something a bit bigger.

I will shut up now.

@Triskan Yes, you find all that out. The Nonmen are an interesting bunch.

Can you post a spoilered summary of the big stuff please? 

[Werthead]

4 minutes ago, Baztek said:

Can you post a spoilered summary of the big stuff please? 

No.

If the book was out, it'd be fair game, but actually spoilerising stuff from a book before it published is a massive professional no-no and an excellent way of ensuring I never get a review copy from the publishers again, which would be a pain (moreso for Orbit rather than Overlook, but I'd still like a review copy of TUC and the last series).

[Callan S.]

8 hours ago, themerchant said:

last we heard is from Maitha saying she is safe. Just before Esme's hired help plunges a dagger into him.

If taking him at his word, I guess.

[William R]

After reading the Ishual birthing room section, I flashbacked to Kellhus's "mistresses" who bore the abominations. Some with eight arms or something of the sort.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

7 hours ago, William R said:

After reading the Ishual birthing room section, I flashbacked to Kellhus's "mistresses" who bore the abominations. Some with eight arms or something of the sort.

Same. Clearly the Dunyain are selected for multiple births but usually require whale mothers for proper development. I think Esmenet was selected Kellhus because he recognised that her body would be able to repress or deal with the multiplying tendency (she has twins, but I suspect the Dunyain whale mothers have considerably larger 'litters'). Note that livestock breeders historically used external physical traits ('nicks') known to correlate with internal hereditary dispositions such as twinning in sheep, so its entirely possible the Dunyain have developed knowledge of such traits in humans. This adds to the suggestion that there are non-whale mother females among the Dunyain, which makes sense if we think of the model for the Dunyain as being social insect societies where there are specialised male and female breeders and sterile female workers (so perhaps Hellstrom's Hive as well as the Tleilaxu of the Duneverse is also a Herbertian influence here).

[Madness]

19 hours ago, Werthead said:

Finished. Digesting.

I actually think that splitting the book worked well enough. Things start slow and then build up to an absolutely massive, multi-stranded finale with major battles and revelations taking place on multiple fronts simultaneously. The actual endings - almost all cliffhangers - are cruel but appropriate.

Maybe if we knew we had 2-5 years to wait for the final part it'd be more annoying, but in one respect I think analysis will benefit from being able to digest the first half of the novel for a year before we get to the second. There is a lot to digest, some major major revelations about backstories, events and worldbuilding, as well as the metaphysics of things.

One area where I'd disagree with Pat:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Consult do show up, but it's rather fleeting. They do make their presence "felt" however, which is putting it mildly.

 

When do you think you'll have your review up, Wert?

Also, Pat, any word on the interview?

[Werthead]

Erm, now?

The Aspect-Emperor Book 3: The Great Ordeal

The Great Ordeal marches onwards under the leadership of its Aspect-Emperor, Anasurimbor Kellhus. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers, drawn from all corners of the Three Seas, and hundreds of sorcerers haven been assembled in the greatest army to march for thousands of years. Its goal: to cross the vast, sranc-infested northern plains and reach fell Golgotterath, the resting place of the Ark of the Heavens. There the Ordeal will destroy the dreaded, unholy Consult and prevent the second coming of the No-God and the onset of the Second Apocalypse.

As the Ordeal marches, the New Empire Kellhus established to build it teeters on the brink of ruin. The fanatical Fanim have besieged the imperial capital at Momemn, but Empress Esmenet is distracted by the plight of her disturbed children. Sorweel, the Believer-King of Sakarpus, has been sent with Kellhus's daughter Serwa to establish an alliance with Ishterebinth, the last extant stronghold of the mighty Nonmen, but he is unprepared for what awaits him there. And in the Mountains of Demua, the wizard Drusus Achamian and Esmenet's daughter Mimara have located Ishual, the stronghold of the Dunyain and the birthplace of Kellhus. There Achamian hopes to find the information he needs to expose Kellhus as a fraud and determine whether he leads humanity to salvation or damnation.

The Great Ordeal is the third and penultimate volume of The Aspect-Emperor, itself the second of three great movements in a larger, over-arching series called The Second Apocalypse. If you are invested already in this series, then this is the easiest review in history: The Great Ordeal is a stunning addition to the series, go and buy it as soon as it is available. For those who remain unconvinced, it's rather unlikely this book will do anything to change your minds.

The Great Ordeal is ultimately a novel of change and revelation. The Great Ordeal and its participants have been tested before, but never as they are in this book. Dark horrors - psychological and physical - await the characters as fresh revelations about the Dunyain, the Nonmen, the Hundred Gods, the Judging Eye, the Logos, the nature of the No-God and Kellhus's own designs are made. Characters grapple with decisions: in the dark shadow of the looming confrontation with Golgotterath there seems to be little hope of salvation, only survival, and a path of least harm may be the best that can be hoped for. It is a dark novel where characters struggle against the fact that some of them are only chess pieces in a grander design set by the gods, the Consult or the Aspect-Emperor, but some of them also discover new ways of gaining agency and thwarting the grand designs that seek to enslave them.

As with previous Bakker novels, the novel mixes political intrigue with religious musings with philosophical insights with scenes of horror and warfare, the author moving smoothly between such elements with a skill and ease of prose that grows more enviable with each volume. There is also a formidable display of imagination, with new worldbuilding concepts and ideas being introduced into the narrative with assured confidence and ease. Characterisation is, as usual, very strong and Bakker seems to tacitly acknowledge the criticisms he has had in the past with a very limited roster of female characters by increasing the amount of screentime for Serwa, Kellhus's daughter and the most intriguing of the new generation of characters. Mimara's importance also increases dramatically in this volume, as it begins to appear that her Judging Eye may hold the ultimate answer to the questions so many characters hold about the Consult and Kellhus himself. The metaphysics of Earwa which seem to hold - on this world anyway - women as an inferior sex are also better explained and shown to be the fault of men and religious dogma (rather than some kind of deep-seated authorial problem) more explicitly than before.

The book is deeply concerned with such metaphysics and Bakker is forced to engage with longer musings on the nature of reality, damnation and salvation. These ideas are key to the storyline and plot of the novel, but are also complex and could risk slowing down the pace of the novel. However, Bakker keeps things moving briskly and (mostly) avoids getting bogged down in philosophy at the expense of the main narrative drive.

The Great Ordeal was originally the first half of a much longer book that had to be split for publication. The risk here was that it may only feel like half a novel, but this is not the case at all. Events are set in motion at the start of the book which culminate in the caverns of Ishterebinth, in the forests of Kuniuri, on the streets of Momemn and, most spectacularly, on the summit of Dagliash. This multi-stranded finale is epic and breathtaking, among the greatest convergences in modern epic fantasy, and the notion it was originally supposed to be a mid-novel climax makes you wonder what exactly Bakker is holding back for the second half. The problem with this climax is that only a couple of strands are firmly resolved, with the rest ending on a series of absolutely titanic cliffhangers (as in, Dance with Dragons levels of cliffhangers or greater).

For those who find Bakker's vision too bleak, his world too grim and his imagination too strewn with horror, The Great Ordeal will do little to reassure them. Occasionally the darkness gets a little too oppressive and the deployment of (mostly implied and off-screen) sexual violence (mostly by men against other men) risks feeling rote, but it does start to feel like there is a method in the madness of Earwa, and the first inklings that some may harbour ambitions to deliver the world not just from the Consult but from the actual darkness it is trapped in beyond that. Whether that is a deliverance to a better existence or something even more appalling remains to be seen.

The Great Ordeal (****½) fairly seethes with intelligence, action and revelation and is a worthwhile continuation of the smartest epic fantasy of our generation. It is also grim and challenging in a manner that won't do much to resolve Bakker's reputation as the most divisive author in modern fantasy. The novel will be published on 5 July 2016 in the United States and on 29 September 2016 in the United Kingdom. The Aspect-Emperor series will conclude with The Unholy Consult, which is already complete and will be published in early-to-mid 2017.

[Madness]

Awesome!

[Hello World]

What were the cliffhangers in DwD again? Only one I can remember is Jon Snow.

[Werthead]

The fate of Jon Snow, the fate of Sansa and Theon (kind of given away by the sample, but at the time it was left up in the air), the outcome of the Battle of Storm's End, the outcome of the Battle of Meereen, the outcome of the Battle of Winterfell, Varys's coup in the Red Keep, Cersei hooking up with UnGregor, the Golden Company assaulting Storm's End, Davos learning Rickon's fate and heading after him, Jaime meeting Brienne and being taken (presumably) to UnCat and Daenerys meeting the Dothraki.

 

Question: do we know the whereabouts of Siol? We know where Ishoriol, Cil-Aujas and (now) Viri were located, but I'm drawing a blank on Siol. Is it the ruined mansion near Atrithau?

[Gormenghast]

19 hours ago, Werthead said:

Of course, what would be awesome is if Bakker is able to get Book 1 of the Last Series ready for 2018, or 12 months after The Unholy Consult, but I suspect that may be asking too much.

Is he even writing it?

I thought he doesn't even have a deal with the publisher. I was assuming he was going to wait to see the sales and then figure out a deal to make. And then maybe start working on what comes next if the conditions are good enough.

As far as I know he's currently busy with other stuff.

[Hello World]

IIRC, Siöl's location has always been a mystery. Also, I don't remember how but we've known that Viri is under Dagliash for some time now.

[Werthead]

Yup, that's confirmed in TGO. I was thinking it might be the ruined mansion north of Atrithau (although I'm trying to remember where Spiral Horizon got that from now) but it seems a bit far to wage a successful war against Cil-Aujas. Somewhere more central might make more sense.

Quote

 

Is he even writing it?

I thought he doesn't even have a deal with the publisher. I was assuming he was going to wait to see the sales and then figure out a deal to make. And then maybe start working on what comes next if the conditions are good enough.

As far as I know he's currently busy with other stuff.

 

The last series? The Unholy Consult is pretty much a lock for 2017 at this point and RSB has said he's touching up the appendix and the last rewrites at the moment, but it is to all intents and purposes finished.

RSB has said that the last series gets written no matter the circumstances, if he has to self-publish or something else.

[Hello World]

Unless he ends up in a Paul Kearney situation...

[Werthead]

I don't think that's possible in this case. The Unholy Consult completes the (newly-extended) contract for The Aspect-Emperor. If Overlook and Orbit refuse to renew the contract for the Last Series, he should be free to publish that wherever. My understanding is that The Second Apocalypse itself does not exist as a legal contractual entity (it's never appeared on the books) and everything is being handled sub-series by sub-series.

[Kalbear]

Thanks for the review, @Werthead! It was nice especially to go into some of the ideas of the metatext in it. 

If you can answer - have you been following along on the discussion here so far about things? Any comments you can share now, or any comments you'd like to share but can't?

[Werthead]

Quote

If you can answer - have you been following along on the discussion here so far about things? Any comments you can share now, or any comments you'd like to share but can't?

On and off. And it'd be very difficult to get into anything without spoilers. Suffice to say that there is new information about the Outside, the metaphysics and the relationship between belief and reality that should fuel discussion for some time to come.

[Gormenghast]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

RSB has said that the last series gets written no matter the circumstances, if he has to self-publish or something else.

Yes, but he never said he already started writing that.

So I don't think we can even hope it will be soon, as in a couple of years. I always considered it as something pushed some years in the future.

[Hello World]

He said he's been writing some bits here and there from the third series some time ago. I think Madness can correct me if I'm wrong as I think this was in reply to a comment he made on rsb's blog.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Bakker seems to tacitly acknowledge the criticisms he has had in the past with a very limited roster of female characters by increasing the amount of screentime for Serwa, Kellhus's daughter and the most intriguing of the new generation of characters

Is this a female perspective introduced in TGO?