Bakker's TGO Excerpts II: Mining our Merest Fraction [Spoilers]s

[Sci-2]

6 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Sorcerer salt could just be treated as valuable simply as a rare commodity - like rhino horn. Though I guess it's a 'meaningful' universe so maybe it can't just be superstition.

How do you know it's sorcerer salt if you've not preserved the sorcerer's form?

I mean maybe the boy was trying to break off a whole limb? But from what we've seen doesn't the salt break apart with relative ease?

[lokisnow]

15 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Also, on the speculation of the Breaking of the Gates being the event that split the God into Gods - probably not. Breaking of the Gates appears to refer to part of the migration of the 5 tribes into the lands of Earwa. Crackpot might indicate that it's both - that the reason the tribes rose up at that point was because they had now become fat with desire or something like that - but chances are the breaking of the gates refers literally to gates, like, breaking and stuff.

My crackpot from ages ago was that the Breaking of the Gates refers to the breaking of the gates of heaven. that Eanna is a term for "Heaven" and that is where men were, and they broke the gates down and left heaven to try to stop the suffering of the Emwamma and then they couldn't get back.

[bakkerfans]

@ Kalbear - I appreciate your response.  Do you really want a spoiler?  Would you read it if I sent you a PM spoiler? No promises--I'm just surprised. Related:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/fear-of-spoilers-now-greater-than-fear-of-death-2013060671195

[lokisnow]

13 hours ago, Callan S. said:

The gates remain closed.

See, the thing you want to say is that you get that there are a lot of misogynistic organisations in the world and really the degree of abuse isn't the issue - so suspension of disbelief issues here do not matter, the Dunyain men could have been abusing women in some other way in their fanaticism to become god. That you recognise that if whale mothers aren't possible, that doesn't mean the Dunyain women would actually have been treated just fine and dandy. And acknowledge that just focusing on the detail of it would seem a way of avoiding discussing whatever abuse they would receive and instead focusing on closing the fiction up tight so it can be packed away. That you get that people who care about women's rights will simply rationalise how the Dunyains pursuit ends up at some level of abuse (unless one wants to rationalise that Dunyain community would treat women just fine, I guess - in which case discussion would be about that rather than the whale mothers perse).

Also although it might be attributing to much to him as an author, but that Bakker might not have provided full on foreshadowing to support the fictional concept simply to trigger responses from those who are just looking at the fiction only. It's the same as how people who are interested in questions of free will and what is reality in the matrix movie don't get hung up on the idea the machines could have used cows. It's really not the point.

See, I would have been okay with a metaphorical/magical explanation like Sci outlined that Dunyain men are what "traditional humanity" think the apotheosis of a man ought to be and that whale mothers are the converse apotheosis of what a woman ought to be (an unencumbered womb) and that this is the natural magical/metaphorical outcome of pursuing the Dunyain philosophical goals.

And / Or, I would have been okay with seeing the whale mother room filled with relatively normal human females, but with their skulls cut away and neuropuncture needles paralyzing them into permanent senescence and that these non-animated females are the dunyain mothers that the males mate with. Women rendered wombs by making all other functionality inert would parallel to the ridiculous and horrifying face peeling room of neuropunctured humans.

Either of these would make sense within the context of the series. But given the structuration we already have, the book does not make sense that the Dunyain can selectively breed gender difference to the degree described.

 

 

[lokisnow]

12 hours ago, Kalbear said:

When put that way, kind of makes it obvious, right?

Chanv is powdered inchoroi.

I've crackpotted before that Chanv is inchoroi dung and that somewhere the Xiuhianni have had an inchoroi imprisoned for millenia, harvesting its feces and selling it for massive profit.

[Sci-2]

4 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

See, I would have been okay with a metaphorical/magical explanation like Sci outlined that Dunyain men are what "traditional humanity" think the apotheosis of a man ought to be and that whale mothers are the converse apotheosis of what a woman ought to be (an unencumbered womb) and that this is the natural magical/metaphorical outcome of pursuing the Dunyain philosophical goals.

Just want to point out this wasn't me.

I just noted that the idea would fit into the notions of final causation where entities point toward natural ends and the Dunyain would subvert/pervert those natural ends.

edit:

As to the rest, yeah my problem is a metapyhsical whodunnit should at the very least give us a consistency to the world that isn't just a dismissive hand-wave where the reader is blamed for working through the text.

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, bakkerfans said:

@ Kalbear - I appreciate your response.  Do you really want a spoiler?  Would you read it if I sent you a PM spoiler? No promises--I'm just surprised. Related:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/fear-of-spoilers-now-greater-than-fear-of-death-2013060671195

I'd be fine with being spoiled. I don't have a problem with it at all, and never have. I recognize that others enjoyment is hindered, so I don't seek to specifically spoil people if I can help it, but I've always looked for more information. And a lot of times (at least for me) knowing about the twist makes me appreciate the work up to it even more, especially if it's a good twist. I was spoiled for the most recent episode of GoT, for instance, and it didn't hurt my enjoyment of it for a moment. I was totally spoiled for TFA and I love the hell out of it. 

I guess that'd be a good way to say it too. I don't have a crazy amount of time any more, so a lot of times I appreciate getting the twists out so I can do analysis and appreciation of the thing on the first viewing. 

That said, I would strongly recommend not PMing me a spoiler. PM, like, Sci or Jurble or Happy Ent (again, if they want it). Or simply post it publicly with permission. I'd absolutely read the hell out of a spoiler if it was sent, but I suspect that sending it to me would not make others particularly happy, and it would likely alter how people perceived my conversations in an even more negative light. 

[all swedes are racist]

2 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

How do you know it's sorcerer salt if you've not preserved the sorcerer's form?

I mean maybe the boy was trying to break off a whole limb? But from what we've seen doesn't the salt break apart with relative ease?

Same way you'd trust that your buying heroin and not Arm & Hammer, probably. Selling burn bags as sorcerer salt loses trust of the market and risks violent retribution if caught?

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

Nope (or not so far), but it was clear on the maps Bakker put online, including his very early draft ones from 20+ years ago.

Like this? This is a great example of the sort of thing I'd love to see more. Just simple confirmations about things that are dead ends or not. I'm happy to start going off on other weird deep end speculation, but it's fairly disappointing when there are red herrings that never, ever get discussed again, and it's nice to just, ya know, be able to stop thinking about it as a possibility. 

Wert is an example of a reviewer that I do read a lot of due to how his views and tastes tend to be similar to mine. I don't expect a lot of spoilers from him either because he's a right bastard that way, but I'm pretty eager to hear his review specifically.

[bakkerfans]

27 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I'd be fine with being spoiled. I don't have a problem with it at all, and never have. I recognize that others enjoyment is hindered, so I don't seek to specifically spoil people if I can help it, but I've always looked for more information. And a lot of times (at least for me) knowing about the twist makes me appreciate the work up to it even more, especially if it's a good twist. I was spoiled for the most recent episode of GoT, for instance, and it didn't hurt my enjoyment of it for a moment. I was totally spoiled for TFA and I love the hell out of it. 

I guess that'd be a good way to say it too. I don't have a crazy amount of time any more, so a lot of times I appreciate getting the twists out so I can do analysis and appreciation of the thing on the first viewing. 

That said, I would strongly recommend not PMing me a spoiler. PM, like, Sci or Jurble or Happy Ent (again, if they want it). Or simply post it publicly with permission. I'd absolutely read the hell out of a spoiler if it was sent, but I suspect that sending it to me would not make others particularly happy, and it would likely alter how people perceived my conversations in an even more negative light. 

0u0 That's cool.  I don't like spoilers, but I do love rereading certain books.

Instead of PMing you spoilers, I'll just announce to everyone here that I've been sending you spoilers all along and that you aren't sharing.

HEY EVERYBODY...

(this is a joke, i hope it registers as a joke)

[Kalbear]

11 minutes ago, bakkerfans said:

HEY EVERYBODY...

(this is a joke, i hope it registers as a joke)

Yep, a joke. Totally a joke. It is a funny joke to be laughed about. It did not cost me $50 USD, I do not know the real reason that whale mothers are their shape or why the term 'whale' was used and how cetacean brains are much more powerful than human ones. I certainly have no knowledge of the three other impact craters on the map and the terrible secret of what the Benjuka plates are made of.

Finally, I want to reiterate that no one should believe any rumors of how Esmenet is a shortening of any phrase screamed out at the last moment by someone. Please do not notice how Escape starts with Es, planet ends with net, and men starts starts with 'me'.

[Sci-2]

43 minutes ago, R'hllors Red Lobster said:

Same way you'd trust that your buying heroin and not Arm & Hammer, probably. Selling burn bags as sorcerer salt loses trust of the market and risks violent retribution if caught?

But this then suggests sorcerer salt isn't Chanv but some has some as yet unknown purpose in Earwa that makes it more valuable than regular salt?

Unless we're going with the idea that the kid is a runner for some drug cartel and had special knowledge about how sorcerer salt is Chanv? Admittedly a possibility but I'm skeptical.

[Sarcellus]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yep, a joke. Totally a joke. It is a funny joke to be laughed about. It did not cost me $50 USD

Last ARC sold for $152 USD.

[bakkerfans]

16 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yep, a joke. Totally a joke. It is a funny joke to be laughed about. It did not cost me $50 USD, I do not know the real reason that whale mothers are their shape or why the term 'whale' was used and how cetacean brains are much more powerful than human ones. I certainly have no knowledge of the three other impact craters on the map and the terrible secret of what the Benjuka plates are made of.

Finally, I want to reiterate that no one should believe any rumors of how Esmenet is a shortening of any phrase screamed out at the last moment by someone. Please do not notice how Escape starts with Es, planet ends with net, and men starts starts with 'me'.

LIES!

Btw, I see your signature quote--do you live in Boston?  I used to live there.  It was awesome.  But expensive.  And busy.  I think I'm going to have to move back in like 4 or 5 years.

[Kalbear]

16 minutes ago, Sarcellus said:

Last ARC sold for $152 USD.

GOD DAMNIT I COULD HAVE GOTTEN THE WHOLE GOD DAMN THING INSTEAD OF A MERE FRACTION FUCK FUCK FUCK

I MEAN

WHAT DID THEY SEE

I MUST KNOW

Quote

Btw, I see your signature quote--do you live in Boston?  I used to live there.  It was awesome.  But expensive.  And busy.  I think I'm going to have to move back in like 4 or 5 years.

Nope. Live in the Seattle area. Been in the Northwest most of my life, with occasional times in Austin, New Mexico, San Diego and Chicago.

[themerchant]

5 hours ago, Triskan said:

Random question of geekdom:  How many Quya did the Consult lose attacking Ishual?  They must have a finite number; can't make new ones.  That could have been quite a costly attack.

Yeah been thinking this myself. Must have been quite a few i reckon. Then they would have stopped sending them. I still think the Dunyain have taken a bigger chunk out of the military capabilities of the consult than scalpers and ordeal have.

The Dunyain hold the field so they "won" the battle of Ishual.

[themerchant]

Didn't the dude that led the Tribes of men meet up with the "gods" before he left. Anghrashael (sp?) meeting a hunter.

Angeshraël and Huseyelt it is. Putting your face to the flame etc.

" Husyelt, the Tusk tells us, sent a hare to him, so he might eat at last. Angeshraël skinned the Hunter’s gift and struck a fire so he might feast. When he had eaten and was content, sacred Husyelt, the Holy Stalker, joined him at his fire, for the Gods in those days had not left the world in the charge of Men "

[Sci-2]

3 minutes ago, themerchant said:

Yeah been thinking this myself. Must have been quite a few i reckon. Then they would have stopped sending them. I still think the Dunyain have taken a bigger chunk out of the military capabilities of the consult than scalpers and ordeal have.

The Dunyain hold the field so they "won" the battle of Ishual.

I suspect the Consult has grown reckless as they are so close to their goal. They fear an unknown quantity like the Dunyain - we know Dunyain have no magical prowess but the Consult had no clue so were willing to exterminate them lest they fall prey to an army of meta-gnostic sorcerers.

[Kalbear]

The only advantage that the Consult had there was that it was relatively close by to Golgotterath, so they didn't have to have a protracted siege line or anything like that. Still, must have been tough.

If you, ya know, believe the idea that the Consult actually did all that and that this isn't some potemkin village set up by Kellhus to goad Akka into trusting another Dunyain. Or that the whale mothers weren't just invented simply so Mimara could see their damnation and side more with Akka. Naturally, who would believe that stuff?

On genetics - thought this was really interesting and again, thanks to my wife. It's a study about genetic markers and genomic information and how valuable a predictor it is of successful offspring based on their ability to produce. The short answer is that it's not enough to just keep genomics - you also need to look at the fitness of the animal, it's offspring, and other factors such as weather, nutrition, how well things bred in future pregnancies, etc. She also pointed out that the most famed sire for breeding dairy goats - one whose children were amazingly successful - was the ugliest goat almost ever, so bad that it was itself never shown or never even photographed. 

And another factoid - Secretariat's direct sons didn't do anything of note. However, Secretariat's daughters ended up producing a whole bunch of winning colts. 

[bakkerfans]

Well thats neat.  I got family in NM and TX. Austin is pretty nice except for all that traffic.