Bakker's TGO Excerpts II: Mining our Merest Fraction [Spoilers]s

[themerchant]

Now we know what eating sranc does. Sexual assualts by men on other men. I could be wrong though. probbaly am in fact.

 

EDIT: Also cheers for review Wert this line in particular bodes well.

" This multi-stranded finale is epic and breathtaking, among the greatest convergences in modern epic fantasy, and the notion it was originally supposed to be a mid-novel climax makes you wonder what exactly Bakker is holding back for the second half. "

[Kalbear]

31 minutes ago, Gasp of Many Reeds said:

Is this a female perspective introduced in TGO?

I think that's a misinterpretation of the Eats, Shoots and Leaves kind. Or the "The two strippers, Kennedy, and LBJ" kind. He's saying that Serwa is Kellhus' daughter. She is also the most intriguing of the new generation of characters.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

I think that's a misinterpretation of the Eats, Shoots and Leaves kind. Or the "The two strippers, Kennedy, and LBJ" kind. He's saying that Serwa is Kellhus' daughter. She is also the most intriguing of the new generation of characters.

Ah, yeah, you;re right, didn't read it properly first time.

[Werthead]

Yeah, I was talking about Serwa there.

So in this book we have Serwa, Esmenet and Mimara as POVs (Serwa isn't necessarily a major POV though) which is a big step up from Bakker's normally much more male-heavy roster, and unlike PoN (where we did have the Empress, Esmenet and Serwe as POVs) all three characters have agency and are in control of their situations (or as much as anyone is). It's not going to win over many opponents, I think, but it is the best Bakker has done so far, and it's done in an organic way that's in keeping with the story. We also get a bit more from the other witches at Dagliash.

[Werthead]

Ha. Positioning my Bakker review right next to the latest news about TWoW turned out to have a massive impact on the review of The Great Ordeal. Already had a few people say they'll be checking out the series as a result. Sweet.

[themerchant]

Wait what's the evidence that the criticism has been accepted tacitly by Bakker and changed PoV's as a result?

 

" Bakker seems to tacitly acknowledge the criticisms he has had in the past with a very limited roster of female characters by increasing the amount of screentime for Serwa "

To clarify he has already said before that you had to read the series in the whole, so it's possible this was the way it was always going to be written as opposed to he had planned differently and after interacting changed the story. Considering how often he said he was writing it his way come hell or high water.

[themerchant]

1 minute ago, Werthead said:

Ha. Positioning my Bakker review right next to the latest news about TWoW turned out to have a massive impact on the review of The Great Ordeal. Already had a few people say they'll be checking out the series as a result. Sweet.

Nice one!

[jurble]

13 hours ago, Gasp of Many Reeds said:

 This adds to the suggestion that there are non-whale mother females among the Dunyain,

There aren't per Bakker on his blog comments.

[Madness]

3 hours ago, Hello World said:

He said he's been writing some bits here and there from the third series some time ago. I think Madness can correct me if I'm wrong as I think this was in reply to a comment he made on rsb's blog.

Not a response to me but...

Quote

The EG was the big reason for splitting the books, and its only thing still requiring any serious work.

I’ve been writing fragments for the final series for years now–as soon as I’ve finished it and rewritten TUC, the final dualogy is my first priority.

[EDIT: Which ultimately, as much as I want TSTSNBN, is a damn shame because there are some other Bakker projects I'd really like to see published.]

13 minutes ago, Werthead said:

It's not going to win over many opponents, I think, but it is the best Bakker has done so far, and it's done in an organic way that's in keeping with the story. We also get a bit more from the other witches at Dagliash.

My opinion is that it seems organic because it was always so intended?

10 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Ha. Positioning my Bakker review right next to the latest news about TWoW turned out to have a massive impact on the review of The Great Ordeal. Already had a few people say they'll be checking out the series as a result. Sweet.

That's great, Wert. And again, stellar review.

[Kalbear]

10 minutes ago, Claustrophobic Jurble said:

There aren't per Bakker on his blog comments.

That makes even less sense. All women are whales? And all men are normal and phenotypically similar to their antecedents?

Hey @Werthead et al - any answer on Dragons and Chorae in TGO?

[Werthead]

Chorae show up, but if you mean do we get any more info on how they were created, no. As for Dragons, I don't think they are mentioned or show up at all.

There is some more stuff on the First Apocalypse thanks to the Dreams and to the introduction of more Nonmen characters who were knocking around from the days of the First Watch. Some of the stuff in these bits has quite massive implications.

Quote

My opinion is that it seems organic because it was always so intended?

Yes, I buy that. It doesn't sound like he's course-corrected with the rising prominence of the female characters but this was what was going to happen anyway. Howevere, there were a couple of bald "women are objectively inferior in the world because of the gods/world being fucked up"-style statements which seemed to be clarifying that point a bit more. It's been stated before - many times - more obliquely so it felt a bit odd it was being restated again, just more stridently, unless Bakker felt that point wasn't getting across to any other than the hardcore faithful. Or maybe that was just me.

[Baztek]

14 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Chorae show up, but if you mean do we get any more info on how they were created, no. As for Dragons, I don't think they are mentioned or show up at all.

There is some more stuff on the First Apocalypse thanks to the Dreams and to the introduction of more Nonmen characters who were knocking around from the days of the First Watch. Some of the stuff in these bits has quite massive implications.

Yes, I buy that. It doesn't sound like he's course-corrected with the rising prominence of the female characters but this was what was going to happen anyway. Howevere, there were a couple of bald "women are objectively inferior in the world because of the gods/world being fucked up"-style statements which seemed to be clarifying that point a bit more. It's been stated before - many times - more obliquely so it felt a bit odd it was being restated again, just more stridently, unless Bakker felt that point wasn't getting across to any other than the hardcore faithful. Or maybe that was just me.

Do we learn Kellhus' endgame? A simple yes or no will suffice. 

[Werthead]

Quote

Do we learn Kellhus' endgame? A simple yes or no will suffice. 

No.

Some possible clues as to what it might be though.

[Sci-2]

6 hours ago, Werthead said:

if he has to self-publish or something else.

So...basically 10 years or more before the series finishes?

[themerchant]

I'd be interested to see the working behind that statement.

[Sci-2]

23 hours ago, themerchant said:

I'd be interested to see the working behind that statement.

Just thinking about how long it's taken to finish this latest trilogy and extrapolating. 

=-=-=

A diagram of William James' Model of the Mind.

Seems to fit how a soul exists in relation to Everything?

[Kalbear]

On 5/30/2016 at 6:15 PM, themerchant said:

I'd be interested to see the working behind that statement.

If anything I'd think it'd be on the optimistic side.

It took about 4 years to right TGO/TUC, along with a couple of side projects and smallish books. Apparently most of the book was actually written in 2011, but failures in being a more established writer along with family expenses and needs meant that Bakker couldn't be a full-time writer and would have to go back to teaching. 

And before that, he mentioned how his schedules have changed quite a bit since the birth of his daughter, and how that has interfered with his writing system.

And it took about 3 years between teaching and finishing his manuscript, which apparently wasn't that far out to being done to start.

And then it took another 2 years for proofs, editing, and publishing past that, and during that time I'm not sure anything was produced other than the atrocity tales and the grimdark magazine supplement. Maybe the Semantica thing? I honestly don't know. Regardless, a few things seem to be reasonably deduced from this:

• Bakker has significantly less time to devote to writing in general than he had prior to taking the teaching/PhD job
• The time he does have is not the same as it used to be in style, and this makes him less productive compared to before as well
• This is unlikely to change all that much in the future, especially as he gets older
• Bakker has somewhat of a difficult time working on a single project at a time; it's unlikely that this would change
• It something is going to be self-published, it's hard to be able to justify spending a great deal of time working on it, especially if said time interferes with work or family time.

Based on that, 10 years - 5 years per book, assuming it's 2 books? That seems pretty generous. Any ideas that Bakker will be able to drop everything and change what is happening seem to fall under the planning fallacy, which is pretty expected. That also assumes that it'll stay 2 books, which Bakker states may not happen. 

Long and short is that I agree with @Madness on this - if you want the third series, you should hope for commercial success of this one. That will help justify spending a lot of time on it and will also likely improve the chances of getting editorial and publishing help, both of which would likely improve the product as well as get things out more quickly. While self-publishing avoids certain delays like contractual obligations it still will require editing slotting, and that takes time - but more importantly (I think) it's hard to write 600,000 words on a story that isn't paying squat. I know I would have a hard time justifying that kind of time commitment to my family.

[JGP]

17 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

While self-publishing avoids certain delays like contractual obligations it still will require editing slotting, and that takes time - but more importantly (I think) it's hard to write 600,000 words on a story that isn't paying squat. I know I would have a hard time justifying that kind of time commitment to my family.

But... dude. You write 600k+ every few months or so just to rip Bakkers' shizzat up in dominance displays, amirite? How do you explain that, yo?

[Kalbear]

Just now, JEORDHl said:

But... dude. You write 600k + every few months or so just to rip Bakkers' shizzat up in dominance displays, amirite? How do you explain that, yo?

Apparently I spend a whole lot of great time doing it when it doesn't interfere with my family?  

Either that, or I'm just that great in bed and that great of a parent and that great of a co-worker that I get a looooooot of slack. 

(in all seriousness, there have been a few times that I have been chided for spending too much time arguing on the internet, and rightfully so. And I don't have a good rationale for saying that what I'm doing is more important. One side effect of this is that I've found a few avenues where arguing on the internet is actually a reasonably successful hobby and not completely pointless, and have turned those character flaws into something resembling improvements in my value.)

[kuenjato]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I

Long and short is that I agree with @Madness on this - if you want the third series, you should hope for commercial success of this one. That will help justify spending a lot of time on it and will also likely improve the chances of getting editorial and publishing help, both of which would likely improve the product as well as get things out more quickly. While self-publishing avoids certain delays like contractual obligations it still will require editing slotting, and that takes time - but more importantly (I think) it's hard to write 600,000 words on a story that isn't paying squat. I know I would have a hard time justifying that kind of time commitment to my family.

I think RSB will write it, regardless of commercial success (he's already stated as to this effect). It's obvious TSA is his life's passion/life's opus, and 600,000 words isn't that much in the grand scope of it all. It may be 'hard' but lots of people soldier on with less success that Bakker (or no success at all). When it comes to one's art, it's not always about money.

He wrote The Warrior Prophet and The Thousandfold Thought in a year apiece, mostly by getting up super early and cranking out a thousand before the routines of the day. Overall I prefer those two works to TAE...

That said, I agree anywhere from 5-10 years is a likely guess.