Heresy Branch Office E05

[Black Crow]

As some of you probably already know Heresy is a long-running [nearly five years] thread on the Dance with Dragons page devoted to discussing various aspects of the books, but largely revolving around the Wall, Winter, Winterfell and the children of Winterfell.

Whilst discussion is sufficiently anarchic to prevent such a thing as consensus in establishing an heretical position on some of those subjects, there are a number of core heresies which we have discussed for some years; one of them, ok a major one, being that the White Walkers are not a race, but were originally created by the three-fingered tree-huggers. With the mummers' version now moving into uncharted waters, at least as far as the books are concerned some of the directions its taking are naturally of some interest - especially when it offers confirmation of what we've long been arguing. Hence, as an experiment, a thread to discuss developments in relation to our otherwise book-related exchanges.

That said, anyone can join in and if you find it interesting enough come across to the main Heresy thread [currently Heresy 185] on the ADwD page of the forum. All we ask is that you observe the local house rules, per my signature block below.

[Black Crow]

As noted in the OP one of the long-standing heresies has been that the Others or rather the White Walkers are not a separate race but were created by the three-fingered tree-huggers.

Long before 6:05 aired, the clues were already there, both in the books and in various pronouncements by GRRM. A big clue came with this one:

 http://www2.canada.c...8&sponsor=Xerox

... to learn more about the White Walkers — or The Others — a mysterious, undead race seemingly bent on humanity’s destruction. “(We’ll learn more about their) history, certainly, but I don’t know about culture,”he said. “I don’t know if they have a culture.”

A race without a culture is a contradiction in terms and a big clue is found in the business of Craster's sons, firmly pointing to a human origin - and by extension a human culture, and of course they are not to be confused with the wights, in that unlike the armies of the slain they themselves aint dead at all, as GRRM advised the comic book artist Tommy Patterson:

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

I'm not sure that the Nights King and his companions could be described as beautiful and they are certainly not as ethereal as GRRM envisages them, but the mummers' version certainly confirms this exchange:

http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/

 

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?
Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

In fact, the term Others, as used in the books, is used to cover up the involvement of the three-fingered tree-huggers. Way back in his 1993 synopsis GRRM wrote " The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter " Note how there are three tiers; the Others, the Neverborn [Craster's boys] and the legions of the undead. What 05 has just done is confirm that the half-forgotten demons of legend are the tree huggers.

The questions now arising are where we go from here. The walkers are clearly the damned; the Nights King is Herne the Hunter and his companions the Wild Hunt; but is there a Stark connection? In the book [ADwD] Bran did indeed have a vision of a man being sacrificed, but that man was tied to the Winterfell weirwood.

[Sam with Hooters]

I suspect that the WW are part of an ancient arms race between Fire and Ice.  Perhaps analogous to nuclear weapons, which burn and then cause, ironically enough, nuclear winter.

The COTF lost control of them, or they rebelled, so the remaining Children and the humans had to cooperate against a common enemy, building the Wall, providing dragonglass, training greenseers...

The dragons could've been enhanced, too.

[Free Northman Reborn]

But Black Crow. The last time I popped in at the Heresy thread - oh about 80 or so threads ago - you guys were saying the Children are the creepy villains behind it all, and insinuating that Bloodraven and his group of Children were actually preparing Bran to become part of the army of Ice to fight the armies of Fire.

Well as it now turns out, you were wrong. Another faction of the Children created the Others. And the Others then became the proverbial magic that is a sword without a hilt. And the Children lost control of their last, desperate weapon.

So the Children and Bloodraven were indeed on the side of humanity, trying to prepare Bran to fight the Others. In that you guys got it quite wrong, didn't you?

[ummester]

We still don't know what show Bloodraven 'uploaded' into to Bran. Perhaps he did upload that the CotF are little tricksters that imprisoned him in the tree? Perhaps he uploaded that the Walkers protect the wierwoods and without wierwoods the whole planet would die, making the existence of the wierwoods more important than any other lifeform on planetos, including humans.

I don't know that there is any proof of factions of CotF - just CotF. And we don't know that the CotF are on the side of humanity - only that they were trying to prevent the Nights King from reaching Bran. Perhaps the Nights King doesn't want to kill Bran at all but disclose some other secret that the CotF hid from Bloodraven?

[Matthew.]

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So the Children and Bloodraven were indeed on the side of humanity, trying to prepare Bran to fight the Others. In that you guys got it quite wrong, didn't you?

It's not as though the thread was a hivemind with universal agreement. Some people had entirely different theories of the Others, and some of us were of the opinion that the CotF have a pretty good motive for the original LN/WW invasion, but that current events don't really fit well with the notion that the sad, dying remnants we see in BR's cave are masterminding anything. Were you actually following the threads, you'd have seen some of these arguments play out.

[Queen of Winter]

Have always enjoyed your Heresy threads, Black Crow. Glad to see that you've set up a thread here as well.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

In fact, the term Others, as used in the books, is used to cover up the involvement of the three-fingered tree-huggers. Way back in his 1993 synopsis GRRM wrote " The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter " Note how there are three tiers; the Others, the Neverborn [Craster's boys] and the legions of the undead. What 05 has just done is confirm that the half-forgotten demons of legend are the tree huggers.

The actor that we see transformed is the same guy that's playing the Night's King this season, and we've seen him do things that, as of yet, we haven't seen Craster's sons do. We see him manipulating ice to destroy the wards(?) on the cave, creating new WWs, raising the dead, etc. With that in mind, I'm not convinced that the CotF are the half-forgotten demons out of legend that comprise the upper tier, and that instead it was men like the NK.

In my opinion, what we've seen is not just the creation of yet another white walker, but the creation of a sorcerer whose abilities are equal to that of a greenseer--think of all that we've seen him do, plus his ability to spot and track Bran in green dreams.

I'm raising this line of speculation because we also have good reasons to believe, based on the text, that there's some significant connection between House Stark and the Others; Kings of Winter, "winter is coming," the stone statues watching Ned in his dreams with "eyes of ice." I think the potential here only grows if you're correct, and the weirwood from the vision is the Winterfell heart tree, in an age before Winterfell proper rose around the Godswood.

I don't think it'd be a terrible leap to speculate that the sorcery the Night's King uses to create soldiers, storms, and weapons could also be used to, say, raise a massive wall of ice.

[Queen of Winter]

1 minute ago, Matthew. said:

I'm raising this line of speculation because we also have good reasons to believe, based on the text, that there's some significant connection between House Stark and the Others; Kings of Winter, "winter is coming," the stone statues watching Ned in his dreams with "eyes of ice." I think the potential here only grows if you're correct, and the weirwood from the vision is the Winterfell heart tree, in an age before Winterfell proper rose around the Godswood.
 

Just my humble thoughts here:

The world of men "moved on" from its myths and beliefs to where people scoffed at Gods and magic.  People forgot where they came from. People didn't believe any longer and became more interested in power, money etc.  I really believe this is where the phrase "The North Remembers"  comes from---- the pact that the Northerners made with the COTF and not forgetting the Old Gods, but over time many of them DID forget and the phrase began to mean something else (sounding more like a statement of revenge, etc). The bit about always having a Stark in Winterfell, might also stem from the pact.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Yeah, when i was watching last night, i thought to myself "the Heretics are going to be exploding right now." And lo, i was not disappointed. I must admit, i thought some of the Heresy theories were barking. Im....really close to joining Team Heretic right now tbh.  

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." I think the potential here only grows if you're correct, and the weirwood from the vision is the Winterfell heart tree, in an age before Winterfell proper rose around the Godswood.

 

1

Oh bruh, that chills me, but i think it might be correct too. Everything shown in the show with the visions have been very Winterfell centric. Even though the ToJ was not Winterfell, obviously, it involved Starks. So there has to be some connection. Not only does Bran have to know how the Others were made, but where. 

12 minutes ago, Queen of Winter said:

Just my humble thoughts here:

The world of men "moved on" from its myths and beliefs to where people scoffed at Gods and magic.  People forgot where they came from. People didn't believe any longer and became more interested in power, money etc.  I really believe this is where the phrase "The North Remembers"  comes from---- the pact that the Northerners made with the COTF and not forgetting the Old Gods, but over time many of them DID forget and the phrase began to mean something else (sounding more like a statement of revenge, etc). The bit about always having a Stark in Winterfell, might also stem from the pact.

 

 

Yeah, i think you may be on to something about the "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" bit. Also why the Stark House words seem to be the only ones that are a warning, not a boast. "Winter is Coming" may refer to the Others. I saw speculation about this ages ago.

[Winter Blues]

25 minutes ago, Queen of Winter said:

Just my humble thoughts here:

The world of men "moved on" from its myths and beliefs to where people scoffed at Gods and magic.  People forgot where they came from. People didn't believe any longer and became more interested in power, money etc.  I really believe this is where the phrase "The North Remembers"  comes from---- the pact that the Northerners made with the COTF and not forgetting the Old Gods, but over time many of them DID forget and the phrase began to mean something else (sounding more like a statement of revenge, etc). The bit about always having a Stark in Winterfell, might also stem from the pact.

I was thinking putting Sansa and Jon back in Winterfell--home, not a prison like it was for Sansa when with Ramsey-- may have more significance than we realize. I don't remember, which Stark is close enough to return to Winterfell after the Stanis/Roose battle, in the books? I get the feeling there needs to be a Stark there for the coming wars if they are to have any chance. 

 

Also, the creation scene, if it's truly GRRM's plan, is confirmation that the Others have the blood of the first men, right? 

[Armstark]

50 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

It's not as though the thread was a hivemind with universal agreement. Some people had entirely different theories of the Others, and some of us were of the opinion that the CotF have a pretty good motive for the original LN/WW invasion, but that current events don't really fit well with the notion that the sad, dying remnants we see in BR's cave are masterminding anything. Were you actually following the threads, you'd have seen some of these arguments play out.

Har, I actually did go back to look what I wrote about this topic in Heresy, your name does come up as well . I'd say it's pretty close:

 

Quote

I always argue for a fourth option: The WWs are fundamentally men and not some independent race and thus the children were reluctant to fight them so as not to break the pact.

 

 

As to the current discussion I concur with Matthew. I don't think the children or Bloodraven are controlling the Others. I think the children are pretty much what they appear to be: an old, peaceful, dying race deeply in touch with nature. The suspicions about them arise largely because of the cave and its dreadful contents but I would argue that this is somewhat misleading. Nature is cruel and deadly sometimes and  are we readers really such children as to be swayed by skulls,bones and darkness? There is nothing inherently nefarious about it.

 

That being said I think there is of course some kind of connection/relationship between the children and the Others and I too think the answer lies in Bran's musing that you guys quoted multiple times already:  Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

 

This would have been true thousands of years ago as well. There is some evidence that there was cooperation between some parts of the children and some parts of the FM long before the Pact (particularly the Reeds, evidence already quoted upthread).

 

So my theory is that the Others who came in the Long Night were a creation of those human allies of the CoF. The WWs are created with knowledge shared by the CoF and by (former) friends of the CoF and yet I think now and then there are not on the same side. 

 

[ummester]

4 minutes ago, Armstark said:

That being said I think there is of course some kind of connection/relationship between the children and the Others and I too think the answer lies in Bran's musing that you guys quoted multiple times already:  Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

So, if the Others are bad, they are only bad because they are made out of men.

However you slice it, the true strife and evil behind everything in Westeros is humans invading. If humans didn't invade, the Giants and CotF would still be in peace. If humans didn't invade, the creation of the Others would not have been possible.

The true evil in GRRMs tale is expansion of the human species across the globe.

[Queen of Winter]

2 minutes ago, Winter Blues said:

I was thinking putting Sansa and Jon back in Winterfell--home, not a prison like it was for Sansa when with Ramsey-- may have more significance than we realize. I don't remember, which Stark is close enough to return to Winterfell after the Stanis/Roose battle, in the books?

I get the feeling there needs to be a Stark there for the coming wars if they are to have any chance. 

 

Also, the creation scene, if it's truly GRRM's plan, is confirmation that the Others have the blood of the first men, right? 

As to the first question: I don't remember. Been a while since I've looked at them.

The second question: to be really technical about it, there ARE always Stark's in Winterfell. They're in the crypts. (Don't know if they have any meaning in the TV series, but in the books I think the crypts are very important )

And yes, I would think that would mean the Others would have the blood of the FM.

[Blade of Sunlight]

If the WW/Others are more or less human babies made ice and taken over by the NK (which seems pretty likely the way the look/disintegrate) then it is clear why they have no culture, thy're just golems.

It seems the CotF threw the baby out with the bathwater when making the NK from a greenseer (i assume). It may be that the children own greenseers then connect to a human GS (Last Hero) and called them to their lair to teach him to defeat the NK, basically the same thing that happens to Bran. Bonus points if the NK and GS are brothers and Starks.

One of the things I find strange though is why would a human decide to kill all CotF/humans/Life, obviously a simple explanation could be he is a psychopath, but that seems too simplistic, making a random guy a uberpowerfull Ice sorcerer and that person being a psycho is a bit of a coincidence. Another possible explanation would be a kind of degeneration of the souls (e.g. Beric/Cat), but this would go against what we know of Ice preserves/Fire consumes, on the other hand it is perfectly possible Ice preserved that person's last feelings, leaving him forever enraged against all, and life in and of itself.

Then we have the whole closed time loop, GS Bran made Walder into Hodor, and Hodor was instrumental in Bran becoming a GS, I don't like self fulfilling time loops, it's one thing for prophesy to influence people, visions from the gods, it's a completely different thing to influence the past in a clear way, I see no clean way out of true time traveling (influencing), it ends up being distilled to "this goes this way because it must" which is to close to (if not actually)  Deus Ex Machina. One way I can see to somewhat limit this, if for there not to be any way for the present to affect the past unless a person in present and past is in the same conscience, and the only effect this could have would be to drive them insane, this still leaves much to be desired, if Bran "goes beyond the Trees" he has access to any living being and could theoretically significantly alter the past, e.g. making Walder Fray crazy to prevent the RW.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

55 minutes ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

Yeah, i think you may be on to something about the "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" bit. Also why the Stark House words seem to be the only ones that are a warning, not a boast. "Winter is Coming" may refer to the Others. I saw speculation about this ages ago.

'Sup, homegirl.

Yar, that speculation is near and dear to my heart.

Yeah I have never once doubted that the "Winter" in Winter Is Coming refers to The Others (and always has), not climatic winter.

And that's the rub.  "Winter Is Coming" IS a boast.  Catelyn has that early passage of internal monologue, watching Ned clean Ice under the tree, and she has that very same thought about how it's weird that the Stark words are a somber warning instead of a proud boast like everyone else's, but it's apropos for the grim Starks and their Northern weirdness.  That's the hint.  Catelyn doesn't have the whole picture.  She can't.

Blood of the First Men.  Kings (and Crown) of Winter.  WinterFELL.  Bran The Builder, the first of many Brandon Starks throughout history, built Winterfell and The Wall [allegedly] and Storm's End for good measure apparently.  The Night's King is/was a Lord Commander Of The Night's Watch and A Stark Of Winterfell.  There's always Starks in Winterfell and seemingly always on The Wall.

The Starks and The Others have been closely tied for a long time.  Before greensight.  Before warging and direwolves.  The Valyrians have Fire Made Flesh.  The First Men have Ice Made Flesh.

Winter Is Coming And We Are The Ones Who Can Stop It... Or Bring It.

 

[Matthew.]

41 minutes ago, Armstark said:

So my theory is that the Others who came in the Long Night were a creation of those human allies of the CoF. The WWs are created with knowledge shared by the CoF and by (former) friends of the CoF and yet I think now and then there are not on the same side. 

Within this realm of speculation, many people have already pointed out that there are certain aspects of the scene last night that remind them of the oldest (as of ADWD) Winterfell vision that Bran has, where a captive is being sacrificed on the weirwood, a ritual being carried out by humans.

Given that wide swathes of the historical nuance are removed from the show - a limitation of the medium, as you can't have your characters spouting constant history lessons - I wonder whether or not the Other-Cotf-Human dynamic in the books will be significantly more complicated.

In particular, I wonder at the chronology of the WWs creation. Were they created before the Pact, the last hurrah of the CotF to finally get men to stop destroying the weirwood, or were they created after the Pact to punish pact-breakers - or a new set of invaders -, with human allies being complicit in the creation of the WWs?

Personally, I prefer the latter, as I think it opens up several more interesting options--particularly when it comes to the history of House Stark.

[Ninerings]

I feel like it was part of the pact. 

 

[Melifeather]

I'm wary to believe that the show will reveal some of GRRM's biggest mysteries before he can, and so while I enjoy the show...I love the show...I'm not sure that we can take anything as confirmation as to it being the same in the books. It's one thing to say, for example, that Sansa ends back at Winterfell. On the show they married her to Ramsay, but it didn't (or hasn't) happen(ed) that way in the books. (Are we allowed to discuss the books here?)

[Unkindessofravens]

Hi all -- I wanted to bring the Night's Watch and its original purpose back into this, especially since the Night King and friends in the show are clearly wearing Watch-ish armor. I am beginning to think the story goes something like this:

1. The First Men are beating the Children back, bit by bit.

2. The Children either capture a group of First Men _or_ they bring in a tribe of First Men - the proto-Starks perhaps -- who are power-hungry and ready to cut a deal. Let's take the second case and run with it. Perhaps this is the Pact, or part of it. The proto-Starks get turned into White Walkers and are able to use their power to conquer the North (note the World Book's portrayal of the ruthlessness of the early Starks and how they had to fight many other families for the North). The sword Ice and the words Winter is Coming stem from here. 

3. After conquering the North (or, alternately, after crying Pax following the Long Winter), the proto-Starks and/or northerners in general enter into the following deal: they will have to maintain a crew of White Walkers (Others), the first Night's Watch, to guard the Wall and protect the Children's northern lands _from_ the greed and ambition of other men. So the Wall, as has been suggested before given the position of the castles etc., is meant to be manned pointed toward the south. This part of the Pact also contains a measure for replenishing the Watch. Either the Starks have to send someone (a bastard? the second son?) to the Wall to become the new Night's King periodically, or they have to do this _and_ the kingdoms of the First Men each have to provide a sacrifice. Possibly the 100 obsidian blades from the Children were actually enchanted blades that carried the ability to crate Others for this purpose. 

4. As feared or predicted by the Children, eventually men _do_ become too greedy to leave their lands alone. Worse for the Children, the man who becomes so greedy is Brandon the Breaker (of the Pact), brother of the Stark on the Wall who is doing his duty as Night's King. Brandon the Breaker allies with other tribes of unscrupulous men under a warlord, Joramun. Perhaps these men are tribes whom Brandon finds especially threatening to his power. Together they cast down the original Watch, including the Night's King. Brandon the Breaker then lets Joramun's peoples pass through the wall and suddenly betrays them, closing it off and mounting a new Night's Watch, facing north, to fend off both the men who will become known as the Wildlings and the Children. Then he rewrites the histories into what we have now. 

This leaves a lot of questions, of course, especially regarding why the Others have been reactivated, what it really means to require a Stark be in Winterfell, why the Children and Others no longer seem to be working together at least in the show, etc. And it of course may be totally off. But give it a try -- maybe there's a grain of truth.