Heresy Branch Office E05

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, Clive Bixby said:

So technically (although I don't like it or believe it) the mummer's version could go with the Bran is the three-eyed raven motif to follow up on the time travel elements that have now been introduced.  I'm only bringing this up because they did bring in Jack Bender to shore up the time travel elements, and we know how that went on Lost. 

Not sure if the time travel element is a reason, but I do recall that a couple of seasons ago Jojen Reed told Bran that he [Bran] was the three-eyed raven. As to Brynden Blackwood there may be a nod towards his identity in the way his disintegration was not unlike a flock of ravens taking wing - but if so that I think was for the readers.

[e1kabong]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

Another way to resolve that one is if Jon Snow turns out to be the son of Ser Arthur Dayne rather than that Rhaegar Targaryen bloke

Or, what if Aegon (book-only currently, sorry) is actually Ashara's spawn that Barristan thought was a girl and a miscarriage. That would confirm his "mummer's" status, but still make him possibly very important. He, unlike the other Dayne progeny we are introduced to, is actually kind, wise (as much as a young man can be), and diligent. He's possible Sword in the Morning material.

We know the show doesn't necessarily introduce things in order. Aegon could be in the next season (like how they delayed the Greyjoys until just now). 

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, e1kabong said:

Or, what if Aegon (book-only currently, sorry) is actually Ashara's spawn that Barristan thought was a girl and a miscarriage. That would confirm his "mummer's" status, but still make him possibly very important. He, unlike the other Dayne progeny we are introduced to, is actually kind, wise (as much as a young man can be), and diligent. He's possible Sword in the Morning material.

We know the show doesn't necessarily introduce things in order. Aegon could be in the next season (like how they delayed the Greyjoys until just now). 

All things are possible but if the Sword of the Morning is going to come into play I think the most likely route is through Jon. 

[e1kabong]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

All things are possible but if the Sword of the Morning is going to come into play I think the most likely route is through Jon. 

I hope not. I'm still sticking pretty hard to my Darth Snow / Jaime Skywalker theory. Which means either I'm wrong and Jon Snow will be the (extremely telegraphed) savior or I'm still right and my favorite piece of the lore is in the hands of the great enemy. An early version of the ToJ conspiracy theory I had theorized that Dawn was placed in the Winterfell crypts, specifically in Lyanna's tomb. It's possible that, like Rhaegar and Lyanna, they believe Jon to be "the promised one" or Azor Ahai and, with Ned's nudging, allowed the sword to go with Ned to Winterfell. Which is why the book has Jon drawn to the crypts, adds some irony to Robert's wish that Ned hadn't buried Lyanna in a dark place (because her bones may not be there at all), and gives some possible explanation as to what multiple dubious parties' interests are when they convergence on Winterfell at the same time (Mance, Lady Dustin, Ghost of Winterfell: All have suitable "fronts", but may hide ulterior motives). 

I should also note that I don't think it's necessary for a Dayne to wield Dawn. I think it's more like a Mjolnir situation. We equate it to "only Thor can wield it", but it doesn't have to be Thor. Whatever criteria the Dayne's use for worthiness to be the Sword in the Morning might just be a family secret. Thus, the only reason Dayne's are the only recorded wielders is because they aren't actively announcing the criteria. They spot when someone of their lineage is "chosen", but may only actively seek out others in times of great crisis (ie - Long Night). 

[Dornish Neck Tie]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but it only makes sense that the weirwood under which we were shown the first White Walker's creation is in fact the Heart of Winter. This would explain why Bran was so horrified in his AGoT vision where he saw beyond the curtain of light; the heart of the coming icy global catastrophe is the symbolic and spiritual foundation of his native religion.

I also have a funny feeling that in the book universe, the origin story for our current conflict will be a bit less streamlined and the NK is actually a different individual than the first White Walker. I would guess that the first 13 Lords Commander of the NW were Stark second sons who commanded a legion of WW. The current NK is the 13th, who pushed back against his vows and tried to seize political power by undergoing the preservative transformation himself. Afterwards, the Wall was manned by humans, thus the lines in the current NW oath that seem like later additions to the original. ("For this night and all nights to come" and "it shall not end until my death" seem kind of redundant unless you consider the possibility that the original black brothers may have been expected to serve for eternity. This is also true to a lesser extent for lines about no families or personal property, since the NW is a "permanent" tour of duty.)

[Tucu]

What are your thoughts on the confirmation that time is fluid in the ASOIAF universe?. From the books we had hints that the Weirwoods / Greenseers have a weird sense of time, but we have never seen present events influence the past as we saw with Bran messing up Hodor. The Weirwoods now remind me of the Wormhole aliens in Deep Space 9 that live outside/across normal time.

How far do you think GRRM will take this in the books? Can Bran and Bran The Builder be the same entity? How many of the prophecies were sent by out-of-time Bran and similar entities? Hopefully it is better explained that the timey wimey time in Doctor Who.

[e1kabong]

2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

What are your thoughts on the confirmation that time is fluid in the ASOIAF universe?. From the books we had hints that the Weirwoods / Greenseers have a weird sense of time, but we have never seen present events influence the past as we saw with Bran messing up Hodor. The Weirwoods now remind me of the Wormhole aliens in Deep Space 9 that live outside/across normal time.

How far do you think GRRM will take this in the books? Can Bran and Bran The Builder be the same entity? How many of the prophecies were sent by out-of-time Bran and similar entities? Hopefully it is better explained that the timey wimey time in Doctor Who.

My fear is that this will play a great deal. However, if they do "Bran the timelord", I will consider my time watching the show and reading the books to be a wasted venture. Time travel is often used as the ultimate deus ex machina solution and I'd be really bummed if it turns out Bran caused everything throughout history.

Of course, I wouldn't put it past GRRM to end a series noted for its love of pulling the rug out from under us by basically saying: "There's no such thing as choice. Fate is all-powerful and unavoidable. There's literally a grand puppet-master commanding the entire situation and your decisions have been pointless." Good for cosmic horror, bad for the humanistic tale that's been weaved so far.

I'll be even more upset if it turns out that the ending is for Bran to go back in time and let himself die when he falls, thereby negating the chain of events that had transpired thus far like a medieval Donnie Darko (so dumb), well I will just set my books on fire. 

[ummester]

9 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

The invasion might not be mentioned in detail on the show but it is included in the History of Westeros compilations on the Game of Thrones Blu-ray boxsets. Besides, why else would there be a distinction between the First Men, Andals and Rhoynar? It's part of the history of this adaptation.

They wights are trying to kill everything in the cave. I don't see how this can be misconstrued as anything else.

The Raven was talking to Bran both times. There is no controlling the Night's King which is why the world was almost overwhelmed by the White Walkers.

Why else? To foreshadow and explain the separations over faiths. Old Gods, the 7 and the Red God, 3 heads of a dragon and 3 sides at the end.

The wights went straight passed the 3 Eyed Raven. They didn't try and kill him. They were trying to get to Bran, because the Nights King wanted to get to Bran, and killed anything that came in their way. You know why a Hippo is the most dangerous animal in Africa? It's not a predator, it doesn't want to kill anything but if you get between it and it's path to the water, watch out, you'll likely end up trampled or skewered on Hippo tusks.

[Tucu]

49 minutes ago, e1kabong said:

My fear is that this will play a great deal. However, if they do "Bran the timelord", I will consider my time watching the show and reading the books to be a wasted venture. Time travel is often used as the ultimate deus ex machina solution and I'd be really bummed if it turns out Bran caused everything throughout history.

Of course, I wouldn't put it past GRRM to end a series noted for its love of pulling the rug out from under us by basically saying: "There's no such thing as choice. Fate is all-powerful and unavoidable. There's literally a grand puppet-master commanding the entire situation and your decisions have been pointless." Good for cosmic horror, bad for the humanistic tale that's been weaved so far.

I'll be even more upset if it turns out that the ending is for Bran to go back in time and let himself die when he falls, thereby negating the chain of events that had transpired thus far like a medieval Donnie Darko (so dumb), well I will just set my books on fire. 

Before this, I thought that the Weirnet had a slow and long master plan due to their perception of time; influencing events without atractting too much attention (similar to the Second Foundation). But now it seems that they can tune events across time; too powerful?

[wolfmaid7]

4 hours ago, missingm said:

I am beginning to think that Bloodraven is Bran. Bran eventually may go back in time only to be trapped there because he stays too long. He is perhaps trying to train his younger self to fix something in the future. When you look at it, BloodRaven and Bran can both only walk in their warging. Could explain why Summer stayed behind to protect Bloodraven / old Bran.

There's no physical time traveling going on though,their conciousness is  just riding the Weirnet to different points in time.Just think a telephone connection that goes way further than me in CA at 6.14pm and you hypothethically in Japan at 10:14am.The tool (Telephone) made our time difference irrelevant.What i'm proposing is just a GS refusing to die in his body,just keep luring Wargs to the tree so you don't lose your gift.

4 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

No, just no. Bloodraven is Brynden Rivers, even when you read the books, one of the CoTF almost gives away his identity.

I would say yes and no.I don't think Brynden Rivers/Bloodraven is really him.At one point yes.That is clearly his body but that the conciousness inside is truly and wholly him......I'd say given the theme GRRM has employed at its core;of people not being who they seem to be.I'd say bookwise its a longshot.

The show runners need to be careful with the details though,or they purposfully left the details of who he is vaugue.I don't what would be the point because he bit the dust.So i'm going with oversight on their part.

[hiemal]

On 5/23/2016 at 5:01 PM, Black Crow said:

The questions now arising are where we go from here. The walkers are clearly the damned; the Nights King is Herne the Hunter and his companions the Wild Hunt; but is there a Stark connection? In the book [ADwD] Bran did indeed have a vision of a man being sacrificed, but that man was tied to the Winterfell weirwood.

I'd say partially that, partially Finvarra and the Sluagh, and partially one-eyed Wotan's Wild Hunting of the woodwives (and what caused the WW to turn on the CotF, anyways?).

[Sly Wren]

54 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I'd say partially that, partially Finvarra and the Sluagh, and partially one-eyed Wotan's Wild Hunting of the woodwives (and what caused the WW to turn on the CotF, anyways?).

Agreed--which is one of the reasons I think the Stark dead in the crypts will play a role and rise. With their own hell-hounds, the direwolves. A Stark Wild Hunt of dead kings and direwolves to combat the Walkers' version.

As for what caused the WW to turn on the CotF--I'm wondering if it has to do with the fact that they made their super-charged warriors out of the very race they were at war with. Seems like that plan is fraught with peril.

We also have the appearance on the show that they stabbed the man through his heart and into the heart tree, wedding him to the tree in the most violent way possible. So, instead of being connected to life through the trees, perhaps the Walkers become violent towards all life? Including the children?

[hiemal]

4 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--which is one of the reasons I think the Stark dead in the crypts will play a role and rise. With their own hell-hounds, the direwolves. A Stark Wild Hunt of dead kings and direwolves to combat the Walkers' version.

As for what caused the WW to turn on the CotF--I'm wondering if it has to do with the fact that they made their super-charged warriors out of the very race they were at war with. Seems like that plan is fraught with peril.

We also have the appearance on the show that they stabbed the man through his heart and into the heart tree, wedding him to the tree in the most violent way possible. So, instead of being connected to life through the trees, perhaps the Walkers become violent towards all life? Including the children?

And to what extant can this act be compared to the forging of Lightbringer and with the "shattering of the moon" that brought about the Long Night. So much going on here.

Tinfoil alternative on the WW's betrayal- I recall reading about the CotF having previous conflicts with the "Deep Ones" who were driven into the sea by the Children's magic. Could the WW's apparent defection be the result of tampering by forces that have remained mostly off stage since their previous defeat?

[House Cambodia]

3 hours ago, e1kabong said:

My fear is that this will play a great deal. However, if they do "Bran the timelord", I will consider my time watching the show and reading the books to be a wasted venture. Time travel is often used as the ultimate deus ex machina solution and I'd be really bummed if it turns out Bran caused everything throughout history.

Of course, I wouldn't put it past GRRM to end a series noted for its love of pulling the rug out from under us by basically saying: "There's no such thing as choice. Fate is all-powerful and unavoidable. There's literally a grand puppet-master commanding the entire situation and your decisions have been pointless." Good for cosmic horror, bad for the humanistic tale that's been weaved so far.

I'll be even more upset if it turns out that the ending is for Bran to go back in time and let himself die when he falls, thereby negating the chain of events that had transpired thus far like a medieval Donnie Darko (so dumb), well I will just set my books on fire. 

Have to agree - the implications are worrying in the extreme. I can only say that after reading 5000+ pages of GRRM's mind, I have faith that he is far better than this.

[Maglor78]

Good heresy stuff that I found via the reddit forums

https://weirwoodleviathan.wordpress.com/2016/03/23/cold-war-iv-mirror-mirror-beyond-the-wall/

[athmystikal]

Does the events of last episode establish that Bran could affect the past? I got the idea that 3EC being able to see the future knew about what is going to happen. He knew about Hodor and Bran even before they were born. So on the day Ned left for the Eyire, 3EC warged Hodor thourhg the weirnet and toasted his brain by showing him the doom that awaits him. It has been shonw in the books that 3EC is able to communicate through dreams. In a previous episode where Bran meets young Hodor for the first time, he exclaims 'Hodor could talk'. At that point the 3EC looks at him apologetically. Maybe he felt guilty for what he did to Hodor?
In the last epsiode, 3EC wanted to show Bran what he did to Hodor and let him understand the price one has to pay. In the books it has been said multiple times that warging another human being is evil and it will make the other one mad. Going by this route, there is no time cycle - confirming what the 3EC said multiple times: `The ink is dry`

Patchface, the mad king .. could be his other experiments?

[House Toad]

1 hour ago, athmystikal said:

Does the events of last episode establish that Bran could affect the past? I got the idea that 3EC being able to see the future knew about what is going to happen. He knew about Hodor and Bran even before they were born. So on the day Ned left for the Eyire, 3EC warged Hodor thourhg the weirnet and toasted his brain by showing him the doom that awaits him. It has been shonw in the books that 3EC is able to communicate through dreams. In a previous episode where Bran meets young Hodor for the first time, he exclaims 'Hodor could talk'. At that point the 3EC looks at him apologetically. Maybe he felt guilty for what he did to Hodor?
In the last epsiode, 3EC wanted to show Bran what he did to Hodor and let him understand the price one has to pay. In the books it has been said multiple times that warging another human being is evil and it will make the other one mad. Going by this route, there is no time cycle - confirming what the 3EC said multiple times: `The ink is dry`

Patchface, the mad king .. could be his other experiments?

If he was showing that scene when transferring his power, wasn't the purpose of its training showing that the past can be manipulated. The next place we have seen was the heart-tree, but what does Blood Raven actually mean? Importantly the Tower of Joy. Leading to what assumptions about Snow?

Separately we had the Red Priestess also manipulating time with her conversation with Varys, you know nothing, in totally separate events.

The Heart-tree name suggests, sacrifice, but why would normal people pray to the boogeyman of death's legions bringing hell? The eyes on heart-trees infer vision, the all seeing third eye of the mystics. These Heart-trees, godswoods, weirwood were placed in every castle as chapels prior to the 7 in Westeros. Doesn't the Heart mean its sacrifice as the heart-trees bleed? Why would normal people pray to these Gods when that act supposedly spawned death?

 

 

 

[athmystikal]

1 minute ago, House Toad said:

If he was showing that scene when transferring his power, the purpose of its training was in showing that past can be manipulated. The next place we have seen was the heart-tree, but what does Blood Raven actually mean? Importantly the Tower of Joy. Leading to what assumptions about Snow?

I dont see how Bran altered the past. It did not change anything about the present. Hodor is still the same Hodor that we knew from Season 1. Unless we assume that the events were cyclic, I don't think there was any kind of manipulation from bran. He warged Hodor in present when 3EC said 'Listen to your friend'

1 minute ago, House Toad said:

Separately we had the Red Priestess also manipulating time with her conversation with Varys you know nothing in totally separate events.

 

I fail to see when the red priestess manipulated time. She must have seen it in her flames or used a glass candle.

1 minute ago, House Toad said:

The Heart-tree name suggests, sacrifice, but why would normal people pray to the boogeyman of death's legions bringing hell? The eyes on heart-trees infer vision, the all seeing third eye of the mystics. These Heart-trees, godswoods, weirwood were place in every castles as chapels prior to the 7 in Westeros. Doesn't the Heart mean its sacrifice as the heart-trees bleed? Why would normal people pray to these Gods when that act supposedly spawned death?

I suppose most pre-medival religions involved sacrifices. The Incans, Mayans, Egyptians ... performed sacrifices. yet they worshiped their 'cruel' gods. Perhaps I misunderstood you, but praying in front of a heart tree does not bring death.

[House Toad]

13 minutes ago, athmystikal said:

I dont see how Bran altered the past. It did not change anything about the present. Hodor is still the same Hodor that we knew from Season 1. Unless we assume that the events were cyclic, I don't think there was any kind of manipulation from bran. He warged Hodor in present when 3EC said 'Listen to your friend'

I fail to see when the red priestess manipulated time. She must have seen it in her flames or used a glass candle.

I suppose most pre-medival religions involved sacrifices. The Incans, Mayans, Egyptians ... performed sacrifices. yet they worshiped their 'cruel' gods. Perhaps I misunderstood you, but praying in front of a heart tree does not bring death.

We can digress, the first time somebody has communicated back to any mumbo-jumbo theory crafted gibberish of the paradoxical shrooms sprouted. Thank you

Bran guided the past when he whispered to Ned, Ned turned? Although he was taken there for what actual purpose? We know that the BR's last act of training to Bran was showing that the past had been manipulated. No Hodor was not always the same as his past Walder, he never was, because presently he was always needed to be a tool. Now imagine you can engage anywhere within time? Which act would you resurrect?

The red priestess and Dany's betrayals knowing specifically what was spoken to Varys? Stating to him, you know nothing about time.

The point was establishing what the heart tree means, the sacrifice shown, but why has everybody been praying to the Great Other?

 

[Black Wolf Smith]

As a long time heretic, I loved "The Door" They confirmed 2 points (at least for the show)

1. they showed the CotF made the WW.

2. In spite of 1001 telling Bran he couldn't interact w/ the past, they showed that he could.  Best of all, its come out that this is one of 3 twist that GRRM has given them.