Heresy Branch Office E05

[hiemal]

6 hours ago, House Toad said:

The Heart-tree name suggests, sacrifice, but why would normal people pray to the boogeyman of death's legions bringing hell? The eyes on heart-trees infer vision, the all seeing third eye of the mystics. These Heart-trees, godswoods, weirwood were placed in every castle as chapels prior to the 7 in Westeros. Doesn't the Heart mean its sacrifice as the heart-trees bleed? Why would normal people pray to these Gods when that act supposedly spawned death?

 

The theme of death and rebirth that is central to all of earth's mystery religion is very well represented in the weirwood soul-cycle.

[House Toad]

32 minutes ago, hiemal said:

The theme of death and rebirth that is central to all of earth's mystery religion is very well represented in the weirwood soul-cycle.

Absolutely, plant a tree on my bones so that I may never die withstanding even time, poetic druidry?

[hiemal]

1 minute ago, House Toad said:

Absolutely, plant a tree on my bones so that I may never die withstanding even time, poetic druidry?

Exactly! But the weirwoods not only withstand time, but to some extant transcend it entirely.

[House Toad]

26 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Exactly! But the weirwoods not only withstand time, but to some extant transcend it entirely.

Yes in becoming a part of the forest and thereby also connect to it, transcending. Beautiful

Although I am sorry for any misunderstanding of other Gods and monsters? Final Fantasy all a part of the earth and all connect to it, in death there is life because there is rebirth? Transcendance?

[No One of Importance]

13 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

There's no physical time traveling going on though,their consciousness is  just riding the Weirnet to different points in time.Just think a telephone connection that goes way further than me in CA at 6.14pm and you hypothetically in Japan at 10:14am.The tool (Telephone) made our time difference irrelevant.

 

^This

[Black Crow]

17 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

There's no physical time traveling going on though,their conciousness is  just riding the Weirnet to different points in time.Just think a telephone connection that goes way further than me in CA at 6.14pm and you hypothethically in Japan at 10:14am.

I agree that there's no physical time travelling involved. Rather I'd see it as the weirwoods standing outside the time stream. A greenseer can therefore tap into it anywhere and see everything and might be able to nudge things with a noise or a voice [depending on however] skilled but no physical intervention is possible

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, House Toad said:

The Heart-tree name suggests, sacrifice, but why would normal people pray to the boogeyman of death's legions bringing hell? The eyes on heart-trees infer vision, the all seeing third eye of the mystics. These Heart-trees, godswoods, weirwood were placed in every castle as chapels prior to the 7 in Westeros. Doesn't the Heart mean its sacrifice as the heart-trees bleed? Why would normal people pray to these Gods when that act supposedly spawned death?

I'd disagree here. I think that the Heart is metaphorical. The trees are at the heart of everything, whether it is winter or is the heart of darkness where first Kurtz/Bloodraven and then Bran/Marlow journeyed.

[Ingelheim]

I think the Show WW and the book ones are quite different. I am sure both were created by the CotF, I'm sure that part is canon, but the Night King of the show is a defferent character than the Night's King of the books, their timelines and backstory do not fit.

The actor who played the man sacrificed is the Night King actor. I just think the Show simplified things regarding the Others.

So, I think many of the book theories can still be right.

[Tucu]

18 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

I think the Show WW and the book ones are quite different. I am sure both were created by the CotF, I'm sure that part is canon, but the Night King of the show is a defferent character than the Night's King of the books, their timelines and backstory do not fit.

The actor who played the man sacrificed is the Night King actor. I just think the Show simplified things regarding the Others.

So, I think many of the book theories can still be right.

The leader of the WW (if there is one) has not appeared in the books yet. But there is still a chance that the Night's King is that leader.

[House Toad]

52 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'd disagree here. I think that the Heart is metaphorical. The trees are at the heart of everything, whether it is winter or is the heart of darkness where first Kurtz/Bloodraven and then Bran/Marlow journeyed.

Yes indeed, I was kind of being a heretic on the religious thread .

However at the same time what caused them to bleed and why not just call them a weirwood, what has caused normal man to worship, as a godswood was found in every keep in Westeros prior to the 7? Upon consideration there is possibly more significance involved, while I absolutely agree that they are rooted for a reason connected into the fabric of this universe. Hence some druidry

[Ingelheim]

24 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The leader of the WW (if there is one) has not appeared in the books yet. But there is still a chance that the Night's King is that leader.

Sure, but that's not the same guy as the book Night's King. Show Night King is not a former LC of the NW. Timelines do not fit.

I mean, we don't truly know that's the first White Walker ever created, but it's 99% likely it is. 

Also, the place shown on the flashback is the same cave Bran and Bloodraven are. But there's no snow. In fact, it looks quite warm. That means the Lands of Always Winter were a consequence of this magic. Like the long and lasting seasons.

It's impossible for the Show Night King to be a member of the NW. The NW didn't even exist at that time, as the Wall. The Long Night hadn't arrived yet.

What I believe now it's that the CotF broke the "magic balance" of the world. I'm sure the creation of the WW is the reason behind Dragons and fire magic. They are also a consequence of the CotF, although this wasn't planned.

 

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Black Wolf Smith said:

As a long time heretic, I loved "The Door" They confirmed 2 points (at least for the show)

1. they showed the CotF made the WW.

2. In spite of 1001 telling Bran he couldn't interact w/ the past, they showed that he could.  Best of all, its come out that this is one of 3 twist that GRRM has given them.

Good aint it

So far as Point 2 goes are you able to quote words and music?

[Black Crow]

10 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Sure, but that's not the same guy as the book Night's King. Show Night King is not a former LC of the NW. Timelines do not fit.

Ah well some of we miserable heretics have argued that originally the Black Gate was the only way to pass the Wall and that the original Watch was a small band of gatekeepers. Its only after the Nights King was overthrown that the ancestors of the present Watch took over and built the castles.

GRRM seemed keen to dampen speculation about the Nights King in the mummers' version, insisting he was only a figure of legend and no more likely than any other legendary figure to turn up.

This may or may not be true, but I'm inclined to go for the simple explanation that no matter how many book readers watch the show it has to be comprehensible to non readers. Keep it simple. The walkers are the big bad. The big bad need a leader and just as Dolorous Ed found he was it, so the Nights King was a convenient it.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Ingelheim said:

Sure, but that's not the same guy as the book Night's King. Show Night King is not a former LC of the NW. Timelines do not fit.

I mean, we don't truly know that's the first White Walker ever created, but it's 99% likely it is. 

Also, the place shown on the flashback is the same cave Bran and Bloodraven are. But there's no snow. In fact, it looks quite warm. That means the Lands of Always Winter were a consequence of this magic. Like the long and lasting seasons.

It's impossible for the Show Night King to be a member of the NW. The NW didn't even exist at that time, as the Wall. The Long Night hadn't arrived yet.

What I believe now it's that the CotF broke the "magic balance" of the world. I'm sure the creation of the WW is the reason behind Dragons and fire magic. They are also a consequence of the CotF, although this wasn't planned.

 

The show has simplified the complex and ambiguous relationship between the first WW, the Last Hero and the Night's King. For the books I expect that The Last Hero to be one of the the last WW created by the CoTF that brought an end to the Long Night and reigned as Night's King until he was deposed and erased from history.

[House Toad]

Brandon Stark built the Wall and Winterfell around what about 8000 years ago? The WWs disappeared, from the Watch records how many years ago possibly 1000 years ago, and the winter cycles never ended hence the wall was manned.

The question, the Wall was there for the WWs?

The next question, the Dayne's wield Dawn which might not be Lightbringer? Where we have the Tower of Joy adding something else into this mix?

There are many gaps in this timeline where some answers are seemingly connected leading to other causality?

 

[Charles Stuart]

On 24 May 2016 at 4:47 PM, tmug said:

It seems to me that the CotF thought they created the WW with dragon glass, they could destroy them with dragon glass as well. Somewhere along the lines the WW got smart and it backfired on the CotF... or so they want you to believe.

Bit of a conjecture but perhaps when the children made the NK, maybe they believed he could only raise other White walkers and not wights. This would tie in with your theory of the children believing they had control over the WW via dragon glass. This control would literally dissolve the moment it became clear the WW and NK could raise hordes of the undead who were immune to the dragon class and who could keep adding to their number as they killed more. The children have an oh sh*t comment when they realise what they have done, quickly make peace with the first men in a pact, imprison the NK and WW somehow with bus imprisonment ending somehow leading to the long night with the newly released NK seeking vengeance against the children.

as to current motivations, who knows. will have to wait and see.

[hiemal]

11 hours ago, House Toad said:

Yes in becoming a part of the forest and thereby also connect to it, transcending. Beautiful

Although I am sorry for any misunderstanding of other Gods and monsters? Final Fantasy all a part of the earth and all connect to it, in death there is life because there is rebirth? Transcendance?

Possibly, but that's another ball of wax. The transcendence I was referring to is the interconnected web of the weirwoods, the weirnet, that allows some people, bound to weirnet by ancestral blood sacrifice and chosen by some sort of genetic lottery, to see and even in a limited way interact with space and time in a non-linear fashion, at least as regards the apparent past. Perhaps the past is the gift of Ice and the future (by means of prophecy) that of Fire?

[Matthew.]

On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 7:16 PM, Dornish Neck Tie said:

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but it only makes sense that the weirwood under which we were shown the first White Walker's creation is in fact the Heart of Winter.

As just a bit of an addition to this, D&D say on the Inside the Episode segment that the spiral symbol around the tree - also replicated by the WWs with dead horses - is a part of the CotF's rituals...at least within the show's canon. Given that they gave us a lingering overhead shot of the spiral with the heart tree at the center twice in the episode, as well as the bizarre gathering of the army of ice around the tree, I think this is a decent interpretation.

We're told in legend that the CotF gathered and concentrated their magic at a single site - the Isle of Faces - to break the arm of Dorne, so I think it makes sense that they created a similar site for birthing the first white walker, and perhaps for unleashing the unnatural winter of the Long Night.

Edit: I'm thinking of this particular passage from the WB, since technically the main text says the CotF gathered at Moat Caitlin.

 

Quote

Finally, driven by desperation, the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their greenseers to stem the tide of these invaders.

And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled.

 

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, House Toad said:

Brandon Stark built the Wall and Winterfell around what about 8000 years ago? The WWs disappeared, from the Watch records how many years ago possibly 1000 years ago, and the winter cycles never ended hence the wall was manned.

The question, the Wall was there for the WWs?

The next question, the Dayne's wield Dawn which might not be Lightbringer? Where we have the Tower of Joy adding something else into this mix?

There are many gaps in this timeline where some answers are seemingly connected leading to other causality?

 

Ah the timelines and the true purpose of the Wall is something we heretics have long discussed and while as always there is no complete concensus we are all agreed that things are not as they seem - and its worth noting that even Bran Stark has doubts right at the very beginning as to whether Bob the Builder raised the Wall.

[ummester]

9 hours ago, Tucu said:

The show has simplified the complex and ambiguous relationship between the first WW, the Last Hero and the Night's King. For the books I expect that The Last Hero to be one of the the last WW created by the CoTF that brought an end to the Long Night and reigned as Night's King until he was deposed and erased from history.

If the show does a simplified version of this - ie The Nights King was the original Lord Commander until he was deposed - it is thematically the same as the book.