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Heresy Branch Office E05


Black Crow

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31 minutes ago, Mayura said:

Thanks for your input :) 

About the "your monster" quote, I agree the discussion is misleading, because Meera interrupts a conversation in which Bran talks about Coldhands to inquire about the 3EC. But at the end of the chapter, Jojen says something along the line of "either we go with Bran's monster (designating Coldhands) or we die..." so I still don't know whether "monster" designated Coldhands or BR. 

But in any case, Bran might have "created" the 3EC as well. Which would explain the whole setting of the story and why the COTF and Bloodraven are waiting for Bran, imo. If Bloodraven is the last greenseer, Bran is something else I guess.

The interpretation that "your monster" refers to CH requires two separate conversation flows and Bran giving no response after he was told the nature of the 3EC after travelling for months looking for him. I prefer the simpler interpretation.

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13 minutes ago, Eddy1 said:

I don't see R'hllor as being the evil god and the Great Other being the good god, as I think they are both basically evil. There'll probably be a battle involving the Starks and the Great Other versus R'hllor and Dany, but the ultimate battle will be between humans and the gods. This fits in with the anti-religion theme of the books.

I wouldn't say the book are anti-religious, and they certainly aren't pro-human!

They don't see the Ultimate in a monotheistic Good v Evil way; rather the religious feeling is non-Abrahamic, more animist or pagan. As such, the conflict is not Good v Evil (GRRM has explicitly rejected that kind of LOTR/Star Wars universe). It's more a question of restoring balance - the lack of which has caused the imbalanced seasons.

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3 hours ago, Eddy1 said:

I don't see R'hllor as being the evil god and the Great Other being the good god, as I think they are both basically evil. There'll probably be a battle involving the Starks and the Great Other versus R'hllor and Dany, but the ultimate battle will be between humans and the gods. This fits in with the anti-religion theme of the books.

I have to disagree, I don't have a link to this SSM but I've no reason to  doubt it:

There are several competing religions in this series now. Should we be wondering if some are more true than others? In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" — whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out.

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4 hours ago, Mayura said:

Oh I love reading the Heresy forums (although I only posted once or twice and it has grown so quickly that I wasn't able to read it all :p) so I am happy to find this show thread!

So I have related questions: 

  • The White Walkers (on the show at least and maybe in the books too, as they seem to need Craster's babies too) seem to be unable to reproduce naturally. They obviously need to turn humans to ensure their race's survival. Now, we can deduce that if the WW's goal is indeed (as the men and COTF suspect in Westeros) to just genocide mankind, this would mean their race would ultimately be extinct, as there wouldn't be anyone left to turn. They sure don't look friendly but... They can't only be killing machines. In the show, they spared Samwell twice (once before the Fist of the First Men attack; a mounted walked saw Sam hiding behind a rock and let him be. The second time when the Walker came for Gilly's baby. It shattered Sam's blade and pushed him aside instead of killing him. This is why I believe they must have another agenda, and they are certainly not pure evil. Do you guys or does heresy have a theory about what could be the WW's endgame?

Your ability to read and write in English is fine - and a lot better than my ability to read and write in your language so no apologies are necessary.

What we have learned both from the books and remarks by GRRM [this is a long-standing heresy] is that the white walkers are not a separate race but human changelings created by the three-fingered tree-huggers. Or at least once they were and now themselves need to pass on the "gift" to Craster's sons to keep up their numbers.

They are not "cold dead things hating all life"

As to what they want; on the basis of what we've learned and what we've seen elsewhere in the books, I'd say that they may turn out to be exiles, like the Golden Company, who want to reclaim what was once theirs.

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8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

While I'm still minded to link the creation scene with Bran's actual vision of a sacrifice at Winterfell, the mention [presumably exaggerated] of 1,000 human prisoners being sacrificed rather suggests that in book terms the tree-huggers didn't create a single "Nights King" but rather created a whole slew of walkers.

Only men of course which is why they now need Craster's sons to keep their numbers up.

I know I'm entering speculative territory that is almost impossible to support, but I have a gut feeling that those that were sent to the Isle of Faces weren't transformed into WWs, but transformed into Green Men--unnatural warriors that are a spring/summer variation of the WW. IMHO, the heart tree in the show is indeed the "heart of winter," a sacred site that the CotF have lost control of, but was used for creating WWs and unleashing long winters.

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38 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I know I'm entering speculative territory that is almost impossible to support, but I have a gut feeling that those that were sent to the Isle of Faces weren't transformed into WWs, but transformed into Green Men--unnatural warriors that are a spring/summer variation of the WW. IMHO, the heart tree in the show is indeed the "heart of winter," a sacred site that the CotF have lost control of, but was used for creating WWs and unleashing long winters.

I expect the Green Men to be a big group of old human/CoTF Greenseers (one for each tree) and undead guardians similar to Coldhands (he even rides an elk like the green men like in Old Nan's tale)

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5 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I know I'm entering speculative territory that is almost impossible to support, but I have a gut feeling that those that were sent to the Isle of Faces weren't transformed into WWs, but transformed into Green Men--unnatural warriors that are a spring/summer variation of the WW. IMHO, the heart tree in the show is indeed the "heart of winter," a sacred site that the CotF have lost control of, but was used for creating WWs and unleashing long winters.

Speculative indeed, but if the white walkers come with the winter and shun the sun, then it would make a degree of sense to have a spring/summer body of changelings. 

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12 hours ago, House Toad said:

I was kind of sticking it to religion on the religious thread, as what was resurrected from paganism? :P. Dreadful 3.4. The coin with 2 sides, but the same coin, fire/ice, death/life. if rebirth continues these lasting cycles, do we also need separate cores, because killing the boy to save the world isn't quite what was in mind? Avatar was understood what was lost in corruption is its solution and the explanation to its opposition and magics. Ice brought fire Lightbringer, the night gave way to spring, but then it repeated?

 

If I'm following you correctly, partially:

The weirnet and its associated soul cycle are intimately tied to the rhythms of nature- the soul is absorbed in the earthly processes of nature rather than subliming immediately to some hypothetical celestial state. Those who are tied to the cycle through blood may have access to soul transferring abilities like skinchanging and the ability to interact with the weirnet so as to see through the weirwoods, in the present and in the past.

Such abilities as those sworn to other forces such as R'Hlorr or Mother Rhoyne, for example, may have access to are beyond the scope of this post but I do suspect the CotF had a hand, at the least, in the "forging" of Lightbringer.

As for why it is all being played out again, I think that is less a reflection of natural rhythms and more about someone (I'm looking at the Bloodstone Emperor and the CoTF or the Lengi here) tampering with the natural order in such a way that it is kinked and must come about again to the crucial moment until it is put right.

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43 minutes ago, hiemal said:

If I'm following you correctly, partially:

The weirnet and its associated soul cycle are intimately tied to the rhythms of nature- the soul is absorbed in the earthly processes of nature rather than subliming immediately to some hypothetical celestial state. Those who are tied to the cycle through blood may have access to soul transferring abilities like skinchanging and the ability to interact with the weirnet so as to see through the weirwoods, in the present and in the past.

Such abilities as those sworn to other forces such as R'Hlorr or Mother Rhoyne, for example, may have access to are beyond the scope of this post but I do suspect the CotF had a hand, at the least, in the "forging" of Lightbringer.

As for why it is all being played out again, I think that is less a reflection of natural rhythms and more about someone (I'm looking at the Bloodstone Emperor and the CoTF or the Lengi here) tampering with the natural order in such a way that it is kinked and must come about again to the crucial moment until it is put right.

Did you miss the Avatar reference? Or the Penny Dreadful reference? Perhaps Heroes reference?

In essence I understood natures internet and I agree with how it works.

The point I was making was about religion and when rebirth caused what affect. and where does that solution lie?

About Dawn and Lightbringer I wasn't answered and seemingly we are tied back into the Tower by 2 separate houses as the Dayne's wield the weapon and the Stark's see,  but are the weapons the same? The timelines have meant a wall was built 8 thousands years ago but the  last WWs or the long night was sooner? Yet for the magics causing the effects brought by this song of conflict. Although rebirth is leading to these causes and so the cycles are endless in their struggles in having each other?

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25 minutes ago, House Toad said:

Did you miss the Avatar reference? Or the Penny Dreadful reference? Perhaps Heroes reference?

In essence I understood natures internet and I agree with how it works.

The point I was making was about religion and when rebirth caused what affect. and where does that solution lie?

About Dawn and Lightbringer I wasn't answered and seemingly we are tied back into the Tower by 2 separate houses as the Dayne's wield the weapon and the Stark's see,  but are the weapons the same? The timelines have meant a wall was built 8 thousands years ago but the  last WWs or the long night was sooner? Yet for the magics causing the effects brought by this song of conflict. Although rebirth is leading to these causes and so the cycles are endless in their struggles in having each other?

The references I did not get except for Avatar. Not familiar with either. I vaguely remember the tree thing in Avatar and it does seem in some ways analogous, but I didn't notice any ability to see through time or space and the blue guys ability to connect with their mounts seems to come from a direct, organic connection. They are kind of like giant CotF, though.

Dawn and Lightbringer:

Venus, the classical Lightbringer of our world, is associated with both the evening and with the Dawn but because of its sinister feel I tend to think it is of the night and in some kind of opposition to the sword Dawn. On the other hand, I am also convinced that the Lightbringer prophecy is about a breeding hybrids into heroes as much as forging alloys into swords. GRRM loves to layer meanings in prophecy, it seems to me.

I don't think this struggle is meant to be eternal, at least not in this form. The erratic seasons (summer vs winter) make it plain that something is very seriously wrong with the natural order and the rebirths of heroes are an attempt (by whom?) to resume the proper balanced opposition of seasons, life, death, and time.

If Dany is Lightbringer Reborn (which I believe she is) I could certainly see Bran as the Last-Last Hero.

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Oy! This thread is moving fast.

12 minutes ago, House Toad said:

About Dawn and Lightbringer I wasn't answered and seemingly we are tied back into the Tower by 2 separate houses as the Dayne's wield the weapon and the Stark's see,  but are the weapons the same?

I think the show and the novels are both setting up for the two houses--Stark and Dayne--as being the key. That Dawn is the key sword, whether that makes it the "Lightbringer" of prophecy or not.

The show really made the tower fight all about Ned and Arthur. Ser Whent-Tower the Disposable Conglomerate had little impact. But Arthur had a huge impact on Ned and Howland and on Bran. Bran's reaction said a lot. And we still don't know why Ned hasn't told anyone how he and Howland really defeated Arthur.

Same with that sword--they had Arthur swing it, then plant it in the ground so the camera could put its sun logo clearly in view of the audience. Then had Ned kill Arthur with it. Then Ned carried Dawn, with Arthur's blood on it, into the tower.

The books focus more on Arthur in the fight, too. More subtly, but they do it.

So, if the question is (as I think you were asking upthread) why the Others are all back and why the swords: I think the fight at the tower broke whatever was holding the Others back.

in the novels, when Ned and Arthur begin to fight, Ned sees petals "blue as the eyes of death." It's the only time anything in the novels is described as being like the Others' eyes. Usually the Others' eyes are described like unearthly stars. But "blue as the eyes of death"--the tower fight is the only place I can find that phrase. 

Which seems to say that the tower fight broke something. Ned and Arthur fighting, or Ned's killing Arthur with Dawn--something about that moment lead to the Others' return. Undid whatever was done to keep the Others "suppressed." Then came the long wind-up of the great summer. And then, Winter.

12 minutes ago, House Toad said:

The timelines have meant a wall was built 8 thousands years ago but the  last WWs or the long night was sooner? Yet for the magics causing the effects brought by this song of conflict. Although rebirth is leading to these causes and so the cycles are endless in their struggles in having each other?

This may be about endless cycles, but I'm thinking that there's a chance that in this fight, the Starks and their allies will break whatever magics bring about the Others. Apparently the previous "fix" only quieted things down. The seasons were still screwy. The Land of Always Winter was. . . .always winter. But though "magic" can't be "fixed," I think they might be able to break down this particular strain this time. Maybe.

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11 minutes ago, hiemal said:

The references I did not get except for Avatar. Not familiar with either. I vaguely remember the tree thing in Avatar and it does seem in some ways analogous, but I didn't notice any ability to see through time or space and the blue guys ability to connect with their mounts seems to come from a direct, organic connection. They are kind of like giant CotF, though.

Dawn and Lightbringer:

Venus, the classical Lightbringer of our world, is associated with both the evening and with the Dawn but because of its sinister feel I tend to think it is of the night and in some kind of opposition to the sword Dawn. On the other hand, I am also convinced that the Lightbringer prophecy is about a breeding hybrids into heroes as much as forging alloys into swords. GRRM loves to layer meanings in prophecy, it seems to me.

I don't think this struggle is meant to be eternal, at least not in this form. The erratic seasons (summer vs winter) make it plain that something is very seriously wrong with the natural order and the rebirths of heroes are an attempt (by whom?) to resume the proper balanced opposition of seasons, life, death, and time.

If Dany is Lightbringer Reborn (which I believe she is) I could certainly see Bran as the Last-Last Hero.

Dawn is the House sword of the Dayne's like all houses have their household sword. Ice was the Stark's and Mormont gave Longclaw to Jon. Dawn brings light at Dawn not dusk, meaning it must be different to Lightbringer, because Lightrbinger is a flaming sword. Perhaps Dawn is pale because it was made of otherworldly fragments, or perhaps the right hero hasn't wielded it in the last 1000 years since the WWs were last seen in the long night. Who knows I am questioning it.

Azor Ahai was Stannis who wielded the fake Lightbringer, but now that Jon is reborn, I dunno where Dany fits into the seasonal trailer? Maybe it wasn't the finale of this present threat, but there was a scene in it, showing lightning and Jon fighting a WW.

The wall was built 8000 years ago at the same time as Winterfell. Meaning exactly what when the long night was at which point? The conflict has been raging for how many BC, ssh Toad not the sacrifice..

 

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6 minutes ago, House Toad said:

Dawn is the House sword of the Dayne's like all houses have their household sword. Ice was the Stark's and Mormont gave Longclaw to Jon. Dawn brings light at Dawn not dusk, meaning it must be different to Lightbringer, because Lightrbinger is a flaming sword. Perhaps Dawn is pale because it was made of otherworldly fragments, or perhaps the right hero hasn't wielded it in the last 1000 years since the WWs were last seen in the long night. Who knows I am questioning it.

Azor Ahai was Stannis who wielded the fake Lightbringer, but now that Jon is reborn, I dunno where Dany fits into the seasonal trailer? Maybe it wasn't the finale of this present threat, but there was a scene in it, showing lightning and Jon fighting a WW.

The wall was built 8000 years ago at the same time as Winterfell. Meaning exactly what when the long night was at which point? The conflict has been raging for how many BC, ssh Toad not the sacrifice..

 

 And well you should- it's not impossible.

As for Azor Ahai, I should be more clear- I believe that Dany is AAR, and her dragons may be likened to the sword Lightbringer. As for the original LB sword I've seen it argued that it could be Blackfyre or Just Maid.

Jon is also a reasonable guess for the Last Hero. If coming back from the dead helps protect against the cold he could be good choice to head into the Land of Always Winter.

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8 minutes ago, hiemal said:

 And well you should- it's not impossible.

As for Azor Ahai, I should be more clear- I believe that Dany is AAR, and her dragons may be likened to the sword Lightbringer. As for the original LB sword I've seen it argued that it could be Blackfyre or Just Maid.

Jon is also a reasonable guess for the Last Hero. If coming back from the dead helps protect against the cold he could be good choice to head into the Land of Always Winter.

They could be. But a sword is quite physical and the Last Hero brandished a flaming weapon, such a famous weapon it had Melisandre doing parlor tricks for Stannis to prove he was the Last Hero, Azor Ahai reborn. Except now we have somebody else reborn, suggesting that there is the real weapon somewhere else.That weapon might be Dragons, but Dragons only made it to Queenscrown. As Dragons weren't in Westeros when the last sighting of WWs occurred.

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The good thing about Heresies is that there's no single creed and everything else is haram, but many parallel and at times opposite or contradictory theories.

So for the sake of the Show section readers and of the old guard of book section Heretics, I'm going to ponder a few hypotheses that are loosely related - some who's been discussed in quite old Heresy threads - some who have some realistic odds of being not too far-fetched when others have ridiculously low plausibility.

 

As discussed since the very first pages of this thread, Show showed us the creation of one of the original White Walkers. Could even be their leader.

That leader might actually be the Night King. If so, then Bran could actually have seen one of his very ancient family member - would make a pattern, since we've seen him watching his close and reent family in his visions.

And this is the interesting bit. Starks of old are said to be related to Children of the Forest, the Wall, the end of the Long Night. And there's been plenty of discussion about "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell" - possibly meaning a Stark must stand South of the Wall as a guarantee the treaty would be respected. Odds are, "there must always be a Stark at the Heart of Winter" or at least North of the Wall. Starks would basically need to stay in power of both sides of the Wall to control the border, make sure it isn't breached. Having a 3rd Stark at the Wall itself could even be part of the deal.

 

What else could we hypothesize about that poor sacrificed human? Well, he was a human, during the Long Night, and he actually found the Children of the Forest, possibly alone.

Where did I read something similar before? Could we didn't just watch a Stark of old being turned into the leader of the Others, could he actually be the Last Hero, who sought the Children? The one we don't know what happened after he found the Children? Could it be that the help of the Children required his willing sacrifice?

 In this case, if the White Walkers were actually created late into the war and the Long Night, how come they were supposed to be the ones who had the upper hand during the war? Couldn't it be that during most of that war, humans were actually beating the Children of the Forest, and the Last Hero was actually a sympathizer of the Children, who wanted to help them avoid complete defeat or extinction?

 

That last part brings us to that old crackpot theory that Nan's tale about the Long Night wasn't actually about humans being slaughtered by a sudden and unexpected onslaught of big alien humanoids and their mounts, who eventually were saved by a lone hero who stroke a deal with the Children of the Forest - but was actually a tale told by the Children themselves, about their near-annihilation at the hands of the First Men, until a few less bloodthirsty humans tried to contact them and help them.

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1 hour ago, Clueless Northman said:

That last part brings us to that old crackpot theory that Nan's tale about the Long Night wasn't actually about humans being slaughtered by a sudden and unexpected onslaught of big alien humanoids and their mounts, who eventually were saved by a lone hero who stroke a deal with the Children of the Forest - but was actually a tale told by the Children themselves, about their near-annihilation at the hands of the First Men, until a few less bloodthirsty humans tried to contact them and help them.

That would make the CotF/Weirnet look too good/innocent/weak. The CoTF/Weirnet/Others were not pacifists; they just fought in different ways:

  1. They sacrificed hundreths of their own people to use the Hammer of the Waters (possible twice)
  2. They sacrificed humans to create the WW and raised armies of the dead. They are also possible responsible for the Long Night
  3. They probably sacrificed thousands of human captives to raise the Wall (if "This wall is made o' blood" is correct)
  4. They are probably responsible for the destruction of Hardhome to avoid human towns spreading through their lands

It is not clear when (or if) the alliance of CoTF, the Weirnet and the Others split. Maybe Bloodraven and his CoTF tribe are just a splinter group that decided that another Long Night is not the correct solution for the human invasion..

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1 hour ago, House Toad said:

They could be. But a sword is quite physical and the Last Hero brandished a flaming weapon, such a famous weapon it had Melisandre doing parlor tricks for Stannis to prove he was the Last Hero, Azor Ahai reborn. Except now we have somebody else reborn, suggesting that there is the real weapon somewhere else.That weapon might be Dragons, but Dragons only made it to Queenscrown. As Dragons weren't in Westeros when the last sighting of WWs occurred.

I'm not entirely convinced of that- sticking just to show lore I would seat that doubt primarily on the historic use of "dragon"glass" and "dragon"steel against the Others. They don't seem to have been instrumental in the Battle for the Dawn, however, so it is a moot point.

I think that the physical swords will ultimately be red herrings- Excaliburs and Arthurs win no thrones in GRRM's universe. The flashback sequence of Howland and Ned taking down Arthur showed that.

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On May 24, 2016 at 11:56 AM, Matthew. said:

Look at the heart tree from the scene where Ned is cleaning Ice, or when Ramsay is married to Sansa. Different tree, different face.

Edit: Also, Luwin's death scene for another good look at both the tree and the godswood.

Maester Luwin’s sacrifice to the great weirwood at Winterfell was clearly a mystic event that ties into ancient mysteries.  You can be sure that its roots drank his blood, its face smacked its lips cackling some in-universe variant of 

  • “For well I devoured even the flesh of the innocent man, well can I drink even the blood of the man who is free from crime.” —Final words spoken to Kullervo as the magical blacksword drank its master’s sacrificed blood.
  • “Yea, I will drink thy blood, that may I forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly.”Gurthang’s final words to Túrin Turambar as the magical blacksword drank its master’s sacrificed blood.
  • “Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!” —Stormbringer’s final words to Elric of Melniboné as the magical blacksword drank its sacrificed master's blood.
  • “Pssssssssssssssssssshhfffffffftp!”Lightbringer’s final words to Nissa Nissa as the magical lightsword frank its master’s wife’s sacrificial blood to complete the rite of its forging.

Luwin’s sacrifice to the heart tree has magical effects that we are still unclear on.

As you can see from the quotes above, Martin is plucking ancient tropes from fantasy literature here.  

And with this, I predict D&D’s third of their three WTF moments they learned from Martin, the one at the very end:

Don’t be surprised if the sword Blackfyre actually magically speaks in much the same way at the very end of the saga as its then-owner, the hero of the story, commits suicide by falling upon it in grief — possibly because of discovering they’ve committed incest, possibly because of the death of a spouse, possibly because of the blood of innocents.  And possibly all of these.

But I would also half-expect Martin to break that trope in some unexpected way.

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4 hours ago, Tucu said:

That would make the CotF/Weirnet look too good/innocent/weak. The CoTF/Weirnet/Others were not pacifists; they just fought in different ways:

  1. They sacrificed hundreths of their own people to use the Hammer of the Waters (possible twice)
  2. They sacrificed humans to create the WW and raised armies of the dead. They are also possible responsible for the Long Night
  3. They probably sacrificed thousands of human captives to raise the Wall (if "This wall is made o' blood" is correct)
  4. They are probably responsible for the destruction of Hardhome to avoid human towns spreading through their lands

A few observations and queries on my part.

1.  Not sure I remember any reference in the books where "hundreds" of COTF were sacrificed in order to create the "Hammer".  My books are in confinement (don't ask) so I would plea upon your good nature to expand on this statement.

Paraphrasing...I also give pause to items #2 thru #4.  I'm not sure book readers would know or agree with your statements.  I am frequently wrong...so my intent is purely an attempt on total understanding on everyone's part.

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3 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

A few observations and queries on my part.

1.  Not sure I remember any reference in the books where "hundreds" of COTF were sacrificed in order to create the "Hammer".  My books are in confinement (don't ask) so I would plea upon your good nature to expand on this statement.

Paraphrasing...I also give pause to items #2 thru #4.  I'm not sure book readers would know or agree with your statements.  I am frequently wrong...so my intent is purely an attempt on total understanding on everyone's part.

As to Point 1, the reference is in the World Book:

Finally, driven by desperation, the little people turned to sorcery and beseeched their greenseers to stem the tide of these invaders.
And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled.

As to the rest, given Ygritte's rather passionate speech about the Wall being evil and made of blood - and Mel's comments about the magic in the Wall, I'd say its a pretty fair inference and one we've discussed on the main Heresy board.

White Walkers? Nothing solid in the text, just all the stuff we've discussed on the main board for so long and now had confirmed.

Hardhome? Nothing at all in the texts and to be honest all that fire doesn't sound like their style - more like the other lot.

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