Heresy Branch Office E05

[The Chequered Raven]

19 hours ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

Also why the Stark House words seem to be the only ones that are a warning, not a boast.

Well, this depends on how you read the words...

They can as well been understood as a threat, if the Starks are somehow able to control the winter! Maybe Ned has forgotten how, but that does not mean his ancestors were unable, too. Sure, speculation, but it seems to be obvieos that ther IS a connection between the Starks and the "Winter-Magic"

[Sansa's Hairnet]

8 hours ago, jet199 said:

Should probably point out that the mark Night's King gave Bran undoes any warding against others a place has. As soon as Bran has this mark the first think BR says to him is to leave, which means go south to the wall. Once Bran passes through the wall it to will lose it's ability to ward against WW. With BR's pridictive abilities in the show he must know this so the CotF and BR must want the WW to go south. This doesn't seem like an experiment gone wrong, it sounds like revenge.

I'm glad I'm not the only person thinking that mark may be the undoing of the Wall. I mentioned this in another thread yesterday, but no one else seemed to think it plausible.

I don't know that I buy the theory of BR working in cahoots with the WW, but seeing how the NK was able to break into the cave after Bran was marked -- and the 3EC making such a point of "He touched you!" -- got me thinking about what will happen to the Wall when Bran goes through it with that mark on him. Speculation is that the Wall is going to fall at the end of this season, but there hasn't been a Horn of Joramun or any other Wall-shattering device mentioned on the show. (At least not that I recall... please correct me if I'm wrong.) So what will bring the Wall down in the show? Could that mark on Bran enable the NK to do it in much the same way he broke the ward on the cave?

[e1kabong]

4 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Well, this depends on how you read the words...

They can as well been understood as a threat, if the Starks are somehow able to control the winter! Maybe Ned has forgotten how, but that does not mean his ancestors were unable, too. Sure, speculation, but it seems to be obvieos that ther IS a connection between the Starks and the "Winter-Magic"

It's also possible that Ned has something to do with the recent resurgence. I found the flashback scene between him and his father very ominous: "If you're going to fight...win." How close to heart did young Ned take that? How far would he go to win?

[GeorgeIAF]

I didn't had my earlier question answered, i really hope someone can enlighten me. So, why the CoTF were so sure that the WW they were creating will fight by their side against humas ? There must be an answer somewhere. Maybe they could warg them or something like that ? I guess that the WW communicate with eachother through warging, maybe the CoTF controlled the WW in this way, until the NK developed his greensight, warging and other abilities and realised he is way more powerful than his creators and turned on them. 

[The Chequered Raven]

18 minutes ago, e1kabong said:

I found the flashback scene between him and his father very ominous: "If you're going to fight...win." How close to heart did young Ned take that?

Well, if we look at season one - I would say he ignored it completely!  ;-)

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Look at the heart tree from the scene where Ned is cleaning Ice, or when Ramsay is married to Sansa. Different tree, different face.

Edit: Also, Luwin's death scene for another good look at both the tree and the godswood.

They are different I know, but the sacrifice took place thousands of years ago and a lot can change. I remain more impressed by the fact that Bran's vision in the book culminated in an ancient sacrifice before the weirwood.

And by the by, when the late Lord Eddard was cleaning Ice before the tree it was blood which was going into the earth and the water.

[RoamingRonin]

38 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Yes, there are way more questions open than we got answers last WE!

What was confirmed ist that the CoF createt the walkers (at least one), and something seems to have gone wrong... Did their magic failed and the outcome was not what they expected? Did their creations turned against the creators later? Why, at which point?

The goal of the walkers ist still unclear. It seems they try to eradicate mankind, but why? Maybe they have good reasons...

The Children created him with an obsidian dagger. The Night's King creates White Walkers by transforming babies with his touch. Perhaps they didn't expect him to have that ability.

Their reason for killing is simple: that's what they were created to do. They were never allies with the Children. They were never biddable. The Children created the Night's King, set him lose on Westeros and went into hiding. They protected themselves with spells so they wouldn't fall victim to their own creation. Once mankind was at a disadvantage, they would kill the Night's King and reclaim their land. 

[e1kabong]

1 minute ago, GeorgeIAF said:

I didn't had my earlier question answered, i really hope someone can enlighten me. So, why the CoTF were so sure that the WW they were creating will fight by their side against humas ? 

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a true answer at this point. There's a lot of room for speculation. Something that was brought up often in the parent Heresy thread is the incorrect nature of the timeline, particularly regarding the Long Night, Building of the Wall, Night's King, the "Last Hero", etc. If you accept that the events/timeline are shrouded in inaccuracies, here's a version of events that could serve to answer that question (I should note that I'll be ignoring the book distinction between First Men and Andals, since the show does not appear to be making that distinction):

1. Men come into the world of the Children, war ensues with Men being largely the victors. They push Children into remote locations (ie - the far north). They stop their encroachment (why pursue into wilderness?). A possible shaky truce is formed, with the Night's Watch being created to monitor against Children attacks.

2. The Night's Watch becomes a powerful organization and a commander rises who wishes for personal power and glory (The Night's King mythos). He raises himself as a Lord against his family at Winterfell (since he was probably a Stark). His rebellion is then put down by the legitimate Starks.

3. His army destroyed, the Night's King then seeks out the Children to recover his power (Per Old Nan: "the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost.")

4. The Children, seeing the Night's Watch has been drastically reduced have their chance to strike back. They use their magic to grant the Night's King his wish, creating the first White Walker (ie - raising his army from the dead, etc.).

5. The Long Night begins as the Night's King begins raising an undead army to assault the land and, as despots usually do, he also begins warring against the Children.

6. The Children, realizing their mistake, then work with men to drive the Night's King away and end the Long Night. The wall is created as we know it (with the help of Children) and the Night's Watch is reformed to watch against the return of the Night's King.

7. After thousands of years, history becomes myth. Mythologies are changed to provide more dramatic flair. Slowly over time, the truth is lost and we have a false perception of history. 

[The Chequered Raven]

1 minute ago, RoamingRonin said:

The Children created him with an obsidian dagger.

Yes, but there was magic as well - If you drive an obsidian blade through my heart, I will not become blue eyes, I will die!

[Black Crow]

49 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Yes, there are way more questions open than we got answers last WE!

What was confirmed ist that the CoF createt the walkers (at least one), and something seems to have gone wrong... Did their magic failed and the outcome was not what they expected? Did their creations turned against the creators later? Why, at which point?

The goal of the walkers ist still unclear. It seems they try to eradicate mankind, but why? Maybe they have good reasons...

 

I refer to my previous post. I reckon that they were men who were allied to the tree-huggers, but when the Pact was agreed they were repudiated because they were no longer needed and there was probably a clause requiring them to be expelled - happens all the time in history. Now they are back, they want what's rightfully theirs [dominion over the North?] and they want payback from the tree-huggers who betrayed them.

[The Chequered Raven]

3 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said:

Their reason for killing is simple: that's what they were created to do. They were never allies with the Children. They were never biddable. The Children created the Night's King, set him lose on Westeros and went into hiding. They protected themselves with spells so they wouldn't fall victim to their own creation. Once mankind was at a disadvantage, they would kill the Night's King and reclaim their land. 

Possible, but just a theorie. There is no proof for that up to now...

[GeorgeIAF]

2 minutes ago, e1kabong said:

Unfortunately, I don't think there is a true answer at this point. There's a lot of room for speculation. Something that was brought up often in the parent Heresy thread is the incorrect nature of the timeline, particularly regarding the Long Night, Building of the Wall, Night's King, the "Last Hero", etc. If you accept that the events/timeline are shrouded in inaccuracies, here's a version of events that could serve to answer that question (I should note that I'll be ignoring the book distinction between First Men and Andals, since the show does not appear to be making that distinction):

1. Men come into the world of the Children, war ensues with Men being largely the victors. They push Children into remote locations (ie - the far north). They stop their encroachment (why pursue into wilderness?). A possible shaky truce is formed, with the Night's Watch being created to monitor against Children attacks.

2. The Night's Watch becomes a powerful organization and a commander rises who wishes for personal power and glory (The Night's King mythos). He raises himself as a Lord against his family at Winterfell (since he was probably a Stark). His rebellion is then put down by the legitimate Starks.

3. His army destroyed, the Night's King then seeks out the Children to recover his power (Per Old Nan: "the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost.")

4. The Children, seeing the Night's Watch has been drastically reduced have their chance to strike back. They use their magic to grant the Night's King his wish, creating the first White Walker (ie - raising his army from the dead, etc.).

5. The Long Night begins as the Night's King begins raising an undead army to assault the land and, as despots usually do, he also begins warring against the Children.

6. The Children, realizing their mistake, then work with men to drive the Night's King away and end the Long Night. The wall is created as we know it (with the help of Children) and the Night's Watch is reformed to watch against the return of the Night's King.

7. After thousands of years, history becomes myth. Mythologies are changed to provide more dramatic flair. Slowly over time, the truth is lost and we have a false perception of history. 

Thanks for the answer  Really good theory you've put there, i find it very believable. I guess we'll have to wait and see how will it be explained in either the books/the show.

[RoamingRonin]

3 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Possible, but just a theorie. There is no proof for that up to now...

If there wasn't proof I wouldn't have suggested it.

We know from the show the Children created the White Walkers. We know in the books they went into hiding right before the Long Night. It adds up quite nicely. 

[Black Crow]

25 minutes ago, GeorgeIAF said:

I didn't had my earlier question answered, i really hope someone can enlighten me. So, why the CoTF were so sure that the WW they were creating will fight by their side against humas ? There must be an answer somewhere. Maybe they could warg them or something like that ? I guess that the WW communicate with eachother through warging, maybe the CoTF controlled the WW in this way, until the NK developed his greensight, warging and other abilities and realised he is way more powerful than his creators and turned on them. 

I refer to the response I've just made to the Chequered Raven Basically I agree with e1Kabong that the timelines are skewed but see it more simply as the three-huggers using the Long Night and the white walkers to win the war and force men to the Pact and then having done that turned the walkers off without a penny.

[e1kabong]

2 minutes ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Thanks for the answer  Really good theory you've put there, i find it very believable. I guess we'll have to wait and see how will it be explained in either the books/the show.

No problem. That idea (ie - Last Hero = Night's King) actually stems from a small, possible hint (as the best tinfoil hat theories do) the first time we see the Night's King in the TV series. When the Last Hero sought the children, he had 12 companions that went with him. The first shot the TV series revealed of the Night's King, he is flanked by 12 other WWs: http://i.imgur.com/7YkBxIp.png. This not only matches the Last Hero tale, but (in total) brings the number on the screen to 13. As per the book, the Night's King was allegedly the 13th Lord Commander.

Although I doubt that these are his original 12 companions, I don't think this numbering in the shot was a coincidence. 

[Black Crow]

52 minutes ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Well, this depends on how you read the words...

They can as well been understood as a threat, if the Starks are somehow able to control the winter! Maybe Ned has forgotten how, but that does not mean his ancestors were unable, too. Sure, speculation, but it seems to be obvieos that ther IS a connection between the Starks and the "Winter-Magic"

It has long been held in Heresy that Winter is Coming is a war cry, not a reminder to lay in some extra firewood 

[Juggzy]

9 hours ago, jet199 said:

Should probably point out that the mark Night's King gave Bran undoes any warding against others a place has. 

Are you sure of this?  While it's a strong possibility, it may also be possible that the NK's mark only reveals where Bran is at the moment he is touched, creating a link to only that place. 

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

do we know for sure this is the answer we will get in the books.  Remember the 2 D's said they got the Hodor story from George, they never said they got the WW being created by the Children part from George.  This could just be D&D's way to start to try and bring this story to a close.  

 

I suspect the books will be far more complicated than a man gets an obsidian dagger stuck in his chest and badaboom badabing we got white walkers.

[Ded As Ned]

11 minutes ago, Juggzy said:

Are you sure of this?  While it's a strong possibility, it may also be possible that the NK's mark only reveals where Bran is at the moment he is touched, creating a link to only that place. 

I think it's safe to assume the NK already knew where Bran was... wights were there waiting when he arrived.  They couldn't penetrate the barrier until Bran was marked.

I personally feel like they'll chase him south, allow him to cross the Wall which will allow them to either cross or destroy it altogether, as others have suggested.

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

do we know for sure this is the answer we will get in the books.  Remember the 2 D's said they got the Hodor story from George, they never said they got the WW being created by the Children part from George.  This could just be D&D's way to start to try and bring this story to a close.  

I suspect the books will be far more complicated than a man gets an obsidian dagger stuck in his chest and badaboom badabing we got white walkers.

More complicated yes, but we've been discussing this outcome on Heresy for some time and this appears to be one of those essential milestones which GRRM has revealed to the mummers. Its too big not to be alhough I certainly agree that the precess and the manner of learning of it will probably be very different in the book - which being said Bran has yet to have an explanation of that weirwood sacrifice at Winterfell