The vale and the north fight over the riverlands

[Kaibaman]

13 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

According to the World book the Westerlands has had Iron born Kings (all hail King Crakehall) conquered parts of the Reach and Riverlands.

Historically the powerhouses are the Stormlands, Iron Islands, Reach and Westerands while the pitiful regions are the Riverlands. The North and Dorne have been rather lackluster due to their poor population and military capabilities. Still, everyone loves the underdog.

I don't know the North did seem pretty formidable before they put their navy to the torch. They did after all manage to invade and sack Andelos and continuously fought with the Vale over the Three Sisters for quite some time. Given the Vale's navy that's pretty impressive.

[The Wolves]

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Got to say the vale for many of the reason given here, but also for this one....the North doesn't seem like a go out and conquer type. They have this manifest destiny thing going from the wall to the neck. That is an area that geographically makes sense. I am sure they would be very quick to defend every inch of it, but I don't see them as losing out. The Hungry Wolf aside, which Stark King or Lord looked outward to add southern kingdoms to the domain of the north or really looked anywhere past the obvious boarders to the north south east and west. Even when Theon Stark took bear island from the iron born he didn't raise a stark banner over it and claim it as an outpost of winterfell, he gave it to the mormonts. Northerners seem a homfront type of people who are proud to be of the north and will protect it but historically don't have ambitions south of the neck. If the Night's of the Vale tried to invade the north i think they would be very sorry about it. But for Riverrun, the desire just isn't there.

 

 

Pretty much this. 

The Northerners will fight like hell and than some for their home: The North. But I doubt they have any interest in conquering beyond the North. They would put up one hell of a fight but at the same time I think they would think the Riverlands is not worth it and forget about. 

[Lion of the West]

7 hours ago, Kaibaman said:

I don't know the North did seem pretty formidable before they put their navy to the torch. They did after all manage to invade and sack Andelos and continuously fought with the Vale over the Three Sisters for quite some time. Given the Vale's navy that's pretty impressive.

Just for clarifications, Theon didn't sack Andalos. It sounds like he went berserk over the whole country when he just burned a sept, three towerhouses and a score of villages with some hundred victims in all. So essentially it sounds like an Ironman standard reaving of fast in and fast out, operation before resistance can be organized.

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Just for clarifications, Theon didn't sack Andalos. It sounds like he went berserk over the whole country when he just burned a sept, three towerhouses and a score of villages with some hundred victims in all. So essentially it sounds like an Ironman standard reaving of fast in and fast out, operation before resistance can be organized.

Not sure where the mere hundred victims idea comes from. 

[Leonardo]

On 5/23/2016 at 4:28 PM, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Neither, both loose. Both are separated from the Riverlands by the worst natural borders outside the Sunset Sea. There is no way in hell either the North or the Vale could keep the Riverlands.

 

They will take some small houses as was said. You have two roughly equal kingdoms in resources without any real advantage in either command or numbers.

 

Topics like these can get silly even though I see the original intent. This one at least had a decent chunk of thought so good on ya

[Minstral]

17 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

 

They will take some small houses as was said. You have two roughly equal kingdoms in resources without any real advantage in either command or numbers.

 

Topics like these can get silly even though I see the original intent. This one at least had a decent chunk of thought so good on ya

...If the North were to theoretically control the Twins, or the area around it, then the Starks/Northmen could theoretically increase their economic/influence over the region given time. Its an interesting idea to consider at the least, you would likely see a lost of Northeners migrating to this area to displace the locals. It's a stronger defensive position than the vale would have if they attempted a conquest.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

12 minutes ago, Minstral said:

...If the North were to theoretically control the Twins, or the area around it, then the Starks/Northmen could theoretically increase their economic/influence over the region given time. Its an interesting idea to consider at the least, you would likely see a lost of Northeners migrating to this area to displace the locals. It's a stronger defensive position than the vale would have if they attempted a conquest.

Try taking over the Iron Islands and putting a decent tradeport on Cape Kraken. Trade is shipping. Up and down the Trident, from Maidenpool to the Twins (and the other two forks), but that's it.

The Neck will still be impassable, but an established and secured route Barrowtown-Cape Kraken-Pyke or Harlaw-Cape of Eagles and then the rather short stint towards the upper Trident cross-country may even have a chance to forge something like unity.

Otherwise, no chance in hell. Crossing the Neck is simply too onerous to work medium- to longtime

[Lee-Sensei]

46 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Try taking over the Iron Islands and putting a decent tradeport on Cape Kraken. Trade is shipping. Up and down the Trident, from Maidenpool to the Twins (and the other two forks), but that's it.

The Neck will still be impassable, but an established and secured route Barrowtown-Cape Kraken-Pyke or Harlaw-Cape of Eagles and then the rather short stint towards the upper Trident cross-country may even have a chance to forge something like unity.

Otherwise, no chance in hell. Crossing the Neck is simply too onerous to work medium- to longtime

How would they conquer the Iron Islands.

[The Wolves]

58 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Try taking over the Iron Islands and putting a decent tradeport on Cape Kraken. Trade is shipping. Up and down the Trident, from Maidenpool to the Twins (and the other two forks), but that's it.

The Neck will still be impassable, but an established and secured route Barrowtown-Cape Kraken-Pyke or Harlaw-Cape of Eagles and then the rather short stint towards the upper Trident cross-country may even have a chance to forge something like unity.

Otherwise, no chance in hell. Crossing the Neck is simply too onerous to work medium- to longtime

Why would they try to conquer the Iron Islands? 

[Lion of the West]

8 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Not sure where the mere hundred victims idea comes from. 

Its in the world book. And just to clarify, I didn't mean 100 victims but a few, as in a couple of, hundred victims like 300-400 victims.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 minute ago, LionoftheWest said:

Its in the world book. And just to clarify, I didn't mean 100 victims but a few, as in a couple of, hundred victims like 300-400 victims.

To quote from the Wiki:

In the aftermath of his victory King Theon raised his own fleet and crossed the narrow sea to the shores of Andalos, with Argos's corpse lashed to the prow of his flagship. There he took a bloody vengeance, burning scores of villages, capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept putting thousands to the sword in the process. The heads of the slain the Hungry Wolf claimed as prizes, carrying them back to Westeros and planting them on spikes along his own coasts as a warning to other would be conquerors.^[

[Lion of the West]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

To quote from the Wiki:

In the aftermath of his victory King Theon raised his own fleet and crossed the narrow sea to the shores of Andalos, with Argos's corpse lashed to the prow of his flagship. There he took a bloody vengeance, burning scores of villages, capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept putting thousands to the sword in the process. The heads of the slain the Hungry Wolf claimed as prizes, carrying them back to Westeros and planting them on spikes along his own coasts as a warning to other would be conquerors.^[

In answer to this I quote from the actual book, page 138, Chapter: The North..

"In the aftermath of his victor, King Theon, raised his own fleet and crossed the narrow sea to the shores of Andalos, with Argos' corpse lashed to the prow of his flagship. There, it is said, he took a bloody vengeance, burning a score of villages, capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept, and putting hundreds to the sword. The heads of the slain the Hungry Wolf claimed as prizes, carrying them back to Westeros and platning them on spikes along his own coast as a warning to other would-be-conquerors."

So it seems like whoever wrote the wiki either has as different edition of the book with some changes from the edition that I have, or someone upped Theon Stark's numbers a bit.

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

In answer to this I quote from the actual book, page 138, Chapter: The North..

"In the aftermath of his victor, King Theon, raised his own fleet and crossed the narrow sea to the shores of Andalos, with Argos' corpse lashed to the prow of his flagship. There, it is said, he took a bloody vengeance, burning a score of villages, capturing three tower houses and a fortified sept, and putting hundreds to the sword. The heads of the slain the Hungry Wolf claimed as prizes, carrying them back to Westeros and platning them on spikes along his own coast as a warning to other would-be-conquerors."

So it seems like whoever wrote the wiki either has as different edition of the book with some changes from the edition that I have, or someone upped Theon Stark's numbers a bit.

Fair point. I am encountering these issues more often, lately, when sourcing information from the wiki.

[Lion of the West]

Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

Fair point. I am encountering these issues more often, lately, when sourcing information from the wiki.

I understand your situation and from time to time I'm there with you. The wiki is quick and easy to check things up and take quotes from.

[Nittanian]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Fair point. I am encountering these issues more often, lately, when sourcing information from the wiki.

 

2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I understand your situation and from time to time I'm there with you. The wiki is quick and easy to check things up and take quotes from.

Please note inaccuracies at the wiki's subforum so they can be corrected!

[Bright Blue Eyes]

9 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

How would they conquer the Iron Islands.

With great, great difficulty, though Asha and Theon seem to be open to and ..arrangement.

 

9 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Why would they try to conquer the Iron Islands? 

Because the Iron Islands are smack-dab in the middle of any naval trade route between the North and the Riverlands. And this potential naval trade in the Sunset Sea is the only chance ever for the North and Riverlands to achieve a sense of unity, and thus keep them together for more than a generation or two.

If they can transform Ironman's Bay into an interconnecting highway, like the Baltic was for the Hanse, they have a chance to make it work. Not a good one, but the only one that actually exists. But that requires the Ironborn to be part of it as well.