Religion

[LePezzy66]

Well, hi everyone!

This is my first social interaction on the world wide web, especially here on this forum. I am really not sure if I'm doing stuff right.

But what I wanted to discuss is religion. I couldn't really find a post about it. (Although I probably didn't search correctly)

But how exactly work the differnt religions right now on the show?

We have The Seven, who don't really do anything.. Except the Many-Faced God. But he seems to not really belong there. Maybe the Many-Faced God is the "true" form of the Seven (they are all different aspects of one entity) and are the other aspects just there for the sake of a stable religion to rule Westeros. I don't know. Also, the Starks are really complicated with their faiths. Catelyn Stark and Arya are now with The Seven, but Jon got resurrected by The God of Light! But they are origionally from the Old Gods from the Forrest, right? Anyway..

We also have the God of Light, who seems quite powerfull. But what does he want? To fight against The Others? They are created by the Childeren of the Forrest as we saw in S6E! I am really missing something here..

I am also not sure what to make of The Old Gods. They are with The Childeren of the Forrest, right? But what are they capable of?

 

This is just a messy train of thoughts I had after S6E5.. I haven't read the books yet, but I will start very soon! I hope someone read this!

[Uncle Benjen's]

Hey

I like the idea that they are all just different interpretations of the same God or force rather than separate entities.Within the show the three religions that actually appear to have power is the Old Gods, R'hllor (red god) and the Faceless god. The Faceless Men do believe that every God in Westeros is just an interpretation of the Faceless god so that lends some credibility to the idea.

The problem is in the show they mention the old gods a lot but from the recent episodes they've barely mentioned it albeit being connected to a Weirwood, which is disappointing. R'hllor seems to be the most fleshed out the show and may be very important in the end game considering we have Mel with Jon and another red priestess turn up in Mereen.

[Richard Writhen]

Never Touch The Stuff™

[Hol Horse]

Well, since you asked just about the show, I'll avoid any book-related info on 'em.

Basically, in terms of power or actual influence, R'hllor seems to be on top. However, since there's so little insight into it all and the fact that it has followers from all over Essos, it's hard to tell what powers are associated with the teachings of R'hllor and which ones are due to said followers being shadowbinders, warlocks, etc. The fact that so many magic users follow the Lord of Light makes it seem like his religion and existence is truest, but people with power can make a lot of things seem true.

The Faith of the Seven is Westeros' version of Christianity, albeit with some differences. They don't seem to 'do anything' because their followers are the least magically-inclined of all religious peoples. The Many-Faced God isn't one of the Seven, not in their pantheon at least. However, followers of the MFG include all gods - including R'hllor. So basically, no one is safe from their inclusion. Thus, from a certain point of view, it can be said that the MFG is the only true god, since it manifests itself in many forms and has power over a very visible thing - which is death.

The Old Gods are indeed the gods of the Children of the Forest and many First Men/Northerners. I wont say much on 'em since you said you're gonna read the books, and you'll find out a lot about them there. From what was shown in the show tho, they are connected to Greenseers (like Bran and The Three-Eyed Raven) and wargs.

And you're not missing anything, it's just that we don't know much about the Others. Even the latest episode created more questions than it gave answers. Basically, the thing to keep in mind is that GRRM isn't about one religion being true - so all of 'em have some truth and many more lies attached to them. Power, however, is very real, and with it you can preach about whatever you want and have people believe it - 'cause you can use your power as physical 'proof' of your god. That's not to say the Red Priests are wrong about everything, but powerful people usually have agendas, and I doubt they're different.

Again, you'll get more info in the books, and if you're still confused after that I suggest perusing the Wiki; might highlight stuff you missed.

[Scorpion92]

I just think, with Hodor revelation last episode, Bran is responsible for every religion, prophecy and vision there is. He has seen the future end game of the series, and pushind humanity towards that. Religion is a powerful tool to make people do stuff, after all.

For instance, I even dare to predict that Faceless Men and Many Faced God religion was started by a man/woman who saw visions or was visited by future Bran, because Bran knew how important this organization would be for his sister Arya's life. Bran is basically this Many Faced God.

[Sigrid]

The Seven are a clear reference to Christianity.  If I recall, they even have the concept that the seven are all aspects of the one god (but I may be off on that).  There's really no magic here, but it's the dominant religion in Westeros.

Rhllor/God of Light comes from the east.  I've seen this compared to Zoroastrianism and is interesting in that to it represents a new religion coming to prominence in an area (kind of like Christianity and Islam being relatively "new" religions).  The lore behind this religions seems to really have some heft given the acts that the priests/priestesses perform in Rhllor's name.

The Old Gods are a reference to paganism and still has a strong footing in the North as it was the religion of the children of the forest.  The old gods were connected to the heart trees (namely weirwoods).  As we can see with Bran there is really something to that as there is magic connected to the weirwoods.

And let's not forget the Drowned God (god of the Iron Islands).  He doesn't get up to too much, but it really lets you in on the nature of the Iron Born if this is their deity.  Shows how different they really are from the rest of Westeros as they are the only ones to follow this religion.

I really enjoy all of the layers of complexity that having these well fleshed out religions brings to the story, especially where they are part of blurring the line in what is real, what is show, and what is true magic.

[Uncle Benjen's]

On 5/25/2016 at 8:48 AM, Scorpion92 said:

I just think, with Hodor revelation last episode, Bran is responsible for every religion, prophecy and vision there is. He has seen the future end game of the series, and pushind humanity towards that. Religion is a powerful tool to make people do stuff, after all.

For instance, I even dare to predict that Faceless Men and Many Faced God religion was started by a man/woman who saw visions or was visited by future Bran, because Bran knew how important this organization would be for his sister Arya's life. Bran is basically this Many Faced God.

That would ruin the whole series. What makes GOT and ASOIAF so good is the whole mystery aspect. Hence why this forum is so busy because people have so many questions. To be able to say every event was the cause of Bran would just be suicide.

[Scorpion92]

1 hour ago, Uncle Benjen's said:

That would ruin the whole series. What makes GOT and ASOIAF so good is the whole mystery aspect. Hence why this forum is so busy because people have so many questions. To be able to say every event was the cause of Bran would just be suicide.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't want to say I like it either, but I will not be surprised if it comes out true.

After all, GRRM confrimed there are no gods in this universe, but clearly Bran has godlike powers, and SOMEONE gotta be sending these visions to people to start these prophecies and religions.

In addition, I believe Bran's final destination is Isle of Faces near Harrenhal. And how is the surrounding lake called? God's Eye. Just a food for thought.

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

There are no gods in the series or the show. Its all just salad dressing, just like in real life.

Gods and religion are like furniture, they paint the world, make it colorful, but just like in real life there are no gods. The things that happen are mistaken as "divine intervention", there is no Divine Puppet-Master pulling the strings, or Mount Olympus where gods fight each other.

Imagine if our world had magic, real magic. We already have thousands of religions as it is. If there was real magic in our world there would be thousands more because of it. Religion is the human's first attempt of trying to make sense of things they don't know. This is what happens in the books&show.

Like in real life the birth of religion is allways about what is arround you and is important to your survival.

The Rhoynar workshipped the river Rhoyne, like ancient Egyptians workshipped the Nile.

The Dothraki worship the Horse God, because horses are the most important thing to their life style.

The First Men don't understand the Children of the Forest powers and the magical properties of the Weirwoods so they worship them.

Craster called the White Walkers - "Ice Gods" - and sacrificed his sons to them.

Humans always think something happens for a reason, that's a mistake, sometimes things just happen, sometimes its just chance, sometimes its just magic. Magic works without the assumption that gods are real.

 

[LePezzy66]

On 25-5-2016 at 6:53 AM, Cz-99 said:

Well, since you asked just about the show, I'll avoid any book-related info on 'em.

Basically, in terms of power or actual influence, R'hllor seems to be on top. However, since there's so little insight into it all and the fact that it has followers from all over Essos, it's hard to tell what powers are associated with the teachings of R'hllor and which ones are due to said followers being shadowbinders, warlocks, etc. The fact that so many magic users follow the Lord of Light makes it seem like his religion and existence is truest, but people with power can make a lot of things seem true.

The Faith of the Seven is Westeros' version of Christianity, albeit with some differences. They don't seem to 'do anything' because their followers are the least magically-inclined of all religious peoples. The Many-Faced God isn't one of the Seven, not in their pantheon at least. However, followers of the MFG include all gods - including R'hllor. So basically, no one is safe from their inclusion. Thus, from a certain point of view, it can be said that the MFG is the only true god, since it manifests itself in many forms and has power over a very visible thing - which is death.

The Old Gods are indeed the gods of the Children of the Forest and many First Men/Northerners. I wont say much on 'em since you said you're gonna read the books, and you'll find out a lot about them there. From what was shown in the show tho, they are connected to Greenseers (like Bran and The Three-Eyed Raven) and wargs.

And you're not missing anything, it's just that we don't know much about the Others. Even the latest episode created more questions than it gave answers. Basically, the thing to keep in mind is that GRRM isn't about one religion being true - so all of 'em have some truth and many more lies attached to them. Power, however, is very real, and with it you can preach about whatever you want and have people believe it - 'cause you can use your power as physical 'proof' of your god. That's not to say the Red Priests are wrong about everything, but powerful people usually have agendas, and I doubt they're different.

Again, you'll get more info in the books, and if you're still confused after that I suggest perusing the Wiki; might highlight stuff you missed.

Thank you so much! This is really a clear explanation! And sorry for my late reply..

[LePezzy66]

On 25-5-2016 at 8:48 AM, Scorpion92 said:

I just think, with Hodor revelation last episode, Bran is responsible for every religion, prophecy and vision there is. He has seen the future end game of the series, and pushind humanity towards that. Religion is a powerful tool to make people do stuff, after all.

For instance, I even dare to predict that Faceless Men and Many Faced God religion was started by a man/woman who saw visions or was visited by future Bran, because Bran knew how important this organization would be for his sister Arya's life. Bran is basically this Many Faced God.

Yes, I've heard many people talk about that theory. But I don't think that that's the case though. I don't know. It just doesn't to fit to the story or Bran's personality. And A human can't be Death..

But so far I'm not sure of what his purpose would be then, either. 

[LePezzy66]

On 3-6-2016 at 4:14 AM, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

There are no gods in the series or the show. Its all just salad dressing, just like in real life.

Gods and religion are like furniture, they paint the world, make it colorful, but just like in real life there are no gods. The things that happen are mistaken as "divine intervention", there is no Divine Puppet-Master pulling the strings, or Mount Olympus where gods fight each other.

Imagine if our world had magic, real magic. We already have thousands of religions as it is. If there was real magic in our world there would be thousands more because of it. Religion is the human's first attempt of trying to make sense of things they don't know. This is what happens in the books&show.

Like in real life the birth of religion is allways about what is arround you and is important to your survival.

The Rhoynar workshipped the river Rhoyne, like ancient Egyptians workshipped the Nile.

The Dothraki worship the Horse God, because horses are the most important thing to their life style.

The First Men don't understand the Children of the Forest powers and the magical properties of the Weirwoods so they worship them.

Craster called the White Walkers - "Ice Gods" - and sacrificed his sons to them.

Humans always think something happens for a reason, that's a mistake, sometimes things just happen, sometimes its just chance, sometimes its just magic. Magic works without the assumption that gods are real.

 

So you say that the "magic" in ASOIAF (and GoT) is just part of the world, and that humans don't understand that, and thus worship it? That's very interesting.. But don't we defy anything that is stronger, more powerfull than humans as a god? So then wouldn't magic BE a "god"?

I like how you describe gods as "salad dressing" though! That's how I think of religion in our world as well.

[Scorpion92]

1 minute ago, LePezzy66 said:

Yes, I've heard many people talk about that theory. But I don't think that that's the case though. I don't know. It just doesn't to fit to the story or Bran's personality. And A human can't be Death..

But so far I'm not sure of what his purpose would be then, either. 

His role in the story is outside of human capacity, he is God of this universe. Think about it in a sense that in order for us to get "summer" back (the reason he named his direwolf such), some events and people need to play huge role in it. He is maestro of this music, the ultimate string puller.

Need a king to unite realms of men who is ruthless but just and who also happens to be your cousin? BAM! Send the visions and prophecies to his dad and make him kidnap your aunt, problem solved.

Need your sister to become the head of spy agency that will overlook the new realm and punish those who try to destroy it? BAM! Send a vision thousands of years ago to some person in Valyria who will start an organization that will train your said sister in the present, problem solved.

Need certain girl to destroy and burn Essos in order to move masses of people to Westeros and destroy the current political and economic stability so something new can be built from the ground? BAM! Keep sending her visions in House of Undying and use her blood sacrifice (Mirri Maaz Duur) to hatch dragons for her, problem solved.

Again, if it turns out that Bran is behind every kind of visions, prophecy and religion, then it will make him the most powerful creature in this universe. I mean, there is even a special place for him ALREADY in the south - Isle of Faces at God's Eye. God's Eye? Really GRRM? That just scream Bran sitting in Isle of Faces and watching over the world from his weirwood throne.

[LePezzy66]

2 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

His role in the story is outside of human capacity, he is God of this universe. Think about it in a sense that in order for us to get "summer" back (the reason he named his direwolf such), some events and people need to play huge role in it. He is maestro of this music, the ultimate string puller.

Need a king to unite realms of men who is ruthless but just and who also happens to be your cousin? BAM! Send the visions and prophecies to his dad and make him kidnap your aunt, problem solved.

Need your sister to become the head of spy agency that will overlook the new realm and punish those who try to destroy it? BAM! Send a vision thousands of years ago to some person in Valyria who will start an organization that will train your said sister in the present, problem solved.

Need certain girl to destroy and burn Essos in order to move masses of people to Westeros and destroy the current political and economic stability so something new can be built from the ground? BAM! Keep sending her visions in House of Undying and use her blood sacrifice (Mirri Maaz Duur) to hatch dragons for her, problem solved.

Again, if it turns out that Bran is behind every kind of visions, prophecy and religion, then it will make him the most powerful creature in this universe. I mean, there is even a special place for him ALREADY in the south - Isle of Faces at God's Eye. God's Eye? Really GRRM? That just scream Bran sitting in Isle of Faces and watching over the world from his weirwood throne.

I don't know, It just seem too easy to have Bran be the one god that ties it all together. It doesn't even make sense!

I mean, if he is the ultimate God, how did he create humans? Or didn't he? But than who did? And then, if more gods exist, why is he the ultimate one? And can he create a "race" (humanity) if he once was one himself?

I could go one with those kind of questions.. I admid, I still haven't read the books yet (damned finals..) but I can't image GRRM answering all of them.. I don't think it's going to be a story about 'How Bran Became God'..

[Warsaw]

On 24/5/2016 at 9:30 AM, LePezzy66 said:

Well, hi everyone!

This is my first social interaction on the world wide web, especially here on this forum. I am really not sure if I'm doing stuff right.

But what I wanted to discuss is religion. I couldn't really find a post about it. (Although I probably didn't search correctly)

But how exactly work the differnt religions right now on the show?

We have The Seven, who don't really do anything.. Except the Many-Faced God. But he seems to not really belong there. Maybe the Many-Faced God is the "true" form of the Seven (they are all different aspects of one entity) and are the other aspects just there for the sake of a stable religion to rule Westeros. I don't know. Also, the Starks are really complicated with their faiths. Catelyn Stark and Arya are now with The Seven, but Jon got resurrected by The God of Light! But they are origionally from the Old Gods from the Forrest, right? Anyway..

We also have the God of Light, who seems quite powerfull. But what does he want? To fight against The Others? They are created by the Childeren of the Forrest as we saw in S6E! I am really missing something here..

I am also not sure what to make of The Old Gods. They are with The Childeren of the Forrest, right? But what are they capable of?

 

This is just a messy train of thoughts I had after S6E5.. I haven't read the books yet, but I will start very soon! I hope someone read this!

They've already explained quite nicely in another post, but I'll add some things if you want a little more info. Also, don't worry about asking, the show leaves many things unclear.

The religions on the show work similarly to the ones in our world. But with magic, so cooler.

The Seven are inspired in the Holy Trinity, but instead of three, they're seven aspects of deity: Mother, Father, Maiden, Warrior, Crone, Smith and Stranger. They're also organized very much like catholicism.

The Many Faced God is, well, every god in every religion (it surged from a place with a lot of cultural clashes). Specially the ones that are connected to death, such as the Stranger.

The God Of Light or Red God has way more magic... and fanatism. R'hllor doesn't want anything (that we know of), we only hear about him through priests and priestesses, such as Melisandre.

The Old Gods are really complicated, but the most beautiful, in my opinion. There isn't a set of rules, no holy books, practically no rituals.

You'll learn more reading the books, but I hope I was a little bit helpful. I'm happy for you starting, you're in for a few surprises. And never be afraid to ask!

[Scorpion92]

5 minutes ago, LePezzy66 said:

I don't know, It just seem too easy to have Bran be the one god that ties it all together. It doesn't even make sense!

I mean, if he is the ultimate God, how did he create humans? Or didn't he? But than who did? And then, if more gods exist, why is he the ultimate one? And can he create a "race" (humanity) if he once was one himself?

I could go one with those kind of questions.. I admid, I still haven't read the books yet (damned finals..) but I can't image GRRM answering all of them.. I don't think it's going to be a story about 'How Bran Became God'..

Well, Hodor revelation proved one thing - he has power to impact past which has consequences on the future, telepathically. 

Well, if Children of the Forest, for example, indeed created White Walkers, but had no idea that they will lose power over them, then that means they do not foresee future. Someone showed them visions of how to create them and what they will do to humanity, but at the same time this someone did not show them how they are going to break free. Maybe White Walkers have a huge role in Bran's "world building" as well, who knows, and he needed them to break free. In that context, Bran of course might be responsible in creation of some races.

Gods do not exist, all gods that do exist are avatars of the same one - Bran. Lord of Light, Drowned God, Old Gods, Many Faced God, Faith of Seven, etc. They are all tools in order for Bran to make people what he needs them to do.

Remember, having an ability to affect timeline is the ultimate power, and if you are not careful enough, it will have devastating consequences down the line. That is what Bran learned from his first time shaping experience - he got Hodor dilemma.

[Warsaw]

21 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

His role in the story is outside of human capacity, he is God of this universe. Think about it in a sense that in order for us to get "summer" back (the reason he named his direwolf such), some events and people need to play huge role in it. He is maestro of this music, the ultimate string puller.

Need a king to unite realms of men who is ruthless but just and who also happens to be your cousin? BAM! Send the visions and prophecies to his dad and make him kidnap your aunt, problem solved.

Need your sister to become the head of spy agency that will overlook the new realm and punish those who try to destroy it? BAM! Send a vision thousands of years ago to some person in Valyria who will start an organization that will train your said sister in the present, problem solved.

Need certain girl to destroy and burn Essos in order to move masses of people to Westeros and destroy the current political and economic stability so something new can be built from the ground? BAM! Keep sending her visions in House of Undying and use her blood sacrifice (Mirri Maaz Duur) to hatch dragons for her, problem solved.

Again, if it turns out that Bran is behind every kind of visions, prophecy and religion, then it will make him the most powerful creature in this universe. I mean, there is even a special place for him ALREADY in the south - Isle of Faces at God's Eye. God's Eye? Really GRRM? That just scream Bran sitting in Isle of Faces and watching over the world from his weirwood throne.

A big, loud NO to everything you just said. You clearly didn't fully understand the character, nor his context. You're just straight up making stuff up.

[LePezzy66]

2 minutes ago, Warsaw said:

They've already explained quite nicely in another post, but I'll add some things if you want a little more info. Also, don't worry about asking, the show leaves many things unclear.

The religions on the show work similarly to the ones in our world. But with magic, so cooler.

The Seven are inspired in the Holy Trinity, but instead of three, they're seven aspects of deity: Mother, Father, Maiden, Warrior, Crone, Smith and Stranger. They're also organized very much like catholicism.

The Many Faced God is, well, every god in every religion (it surged from a place with a lot of cultural clashes). Specially the ones that are connected to death, such as the Stranger.

The God Of Light or Red God has way more magic... and fanatism. R'hllor doesn't want anything (that we know of), we only hear about him through priests and priestesses, such as Melisandre.

The Old Gods are really complicated, but the most beautiful, in my opinion. There isn't a set of rules, no holy books, practically no rituals.

You'll learn more reading the books, but I hope I was a little bit helpful. I'm happy for you starting, you're in for a few surprises. And never be afraid to ask!

Thank you so much, sir. You are very kind.

I've not heard many people say that they think The Old Gods are the strongest. What makes you say that?

[Warsaw]

9 minutes ago, LePezzy66 said:

Thank you so much, sir. You are very kind.

I've not heard many people say that they think The Old Gods are the strongest. What makes you say that?

You're welcome, but I am a woman.

I never said strongest, I said complicated and beautiful.

But, well, now that you mention it, the Children of the Forest did do a couple of very impressive things in the old days, when they were most powerful. Their magic helped build the Wall. Apparently also the White Walkers, although we don't know much about that. They can comunicate through the trees and travel through time, although they can't really do much more than watch and whisper.

And also, there's the Stepstones. See those little islands in red? That used to be a strip of land that joined the two continents, Westeros and Essos. They fucking destroyed it. (So the First Men would stop coming from the East). If that's not powerful, I don't know what is. I wanna see R'hllor trying to pull THAT off.

[LePezzy66]

1 minute ago, Warsaw said:

You're welcome, but I am a woman.

I never said strongest, I said complicated and beautiful.

But, well, now that you mention it, they did do a couple of very impressive things in the old days, when they were most powerful. Their magic helped build the Wall. Apparently also the White Walkers, although we don't know much about that. They can comunicate through the trees and travel through time, although they can't really do much more than watch and whisper.

And also, there's the Stepstones. See those little islands in red? That used to be a strip of land that joined the two continents, Westeros and Essos. They fucking destroyed it. (So the First Men would stop coming from the East). If that's not powerful, I don't know what is. I wanna see R'hllor trying to pull THAT off.

I'm sorry. I could've known you were a woman. But sir just sound cool to me. And you were being cool. :]

And yeah, that's right, they build The Wall! That's impressive! I don't know about the Stepstones, though. Haven't read the books (yet). But it sounds awesome indeed!

As Someone els here said, maybe the LoL SEEMS most powerfull, bc he has powerfull priests, but isn't really the strongest. I hope we get more information about religion soon!

Or maybe we do live in the eye of a blue-eyed giant...