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Military strengths of the Houses of Westeros


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This thread will be dedicated to facts and estimations regarding the military strength of the many houses in Westeros. Books, TV shows, games and even personal estimations (if based on confirmed information; see my House Manderly estimate for example) are valid. This opening post will be consistently updated if new numbers that seem correct are added by other forum members. Great Houses are not listed, as they command all other Houses in their region.

House Baratheon of Dragonstone: 3,400 men (3,000 foot, 400 knights), 160 ships (80 galleys, 80 other ships)
House Baratheon of King's Landing: 6,300 men (6,000 city watch, 300 knights), 45 ships (all war galleys)
House Bolton: 4,100 men (3,680 foot, 920 horse)
House Caron: 2,400 men (2,000 foot, 400 knights)
House Dondarrion: 2,400 men (2,000 foot, 400 knights)

House Dustin: 3,000+ men (2,400 foot, 600 horse)
House Florent: 2,000 men (1,333 foot, 667 horse)
House Forrester: 613 men (498 foot, 113 horse, 2 knights)
House Frey: 4,400 men (3,300 foot, 100 horse, 1,000 knights)
House Karstark: 2,752 men (2,000 foot, 400 spearmen, 40 archers, 300 horse, 12 mounted lancers)
House Manderly: 7,500 men (4,700 foot, 1,280 pikemen, 1,400 horse, 120 knights), 23 ships (all war galleys)
House Whitehill: 519 men (415 foot, 104 horse)

SOURCES AND CALCULATIONS:

House Baratheon of Dragonstone: Dragonstone can raise 3,000 men-at-arms and 400 knights, and it's fleet is 80 galleys and 80 other ships (A Game of Thrones RPG).
House Baratheon of King's Landing: Excluding sellswords, the relief force and those that left the city prior to the Blackwater, the defense of King's Landing included 2,000 Goldcloaks, 4,000 Goldcloak recruits, 300 knights and men-at-arms, and over 45 war galleys (ACOK, Chapter 49, Tyrion XI).
House Bolton: Roose Bolton commanded 3,500 men in the march south (ASOS, Chapter 49, Catelyn VI) and Ramsay Bolton led 600 men in the Battle at Winterfell (ACOK, Chapter 66, Theon VI). The composition of the Bolton home army is uncertain, so we can assume the same foot-horse ratio as the rest of the North, which is 4-1.
House Caron: In 206 AC, House Dondarrion and House Caron together mustered 4,000 foot and 800 knights (THK). We can assume they contributed half each, and that their power has not drastically changed since that date.
House Dondarrion: In 206 AC, House Dondarrion and House Caron together mustered 4,000 foot and 800 knights (THK). We can assume they contributed half each, and that their power has not drastically changed since that date.
House Dustin: Controls Barrowton, the second-largest town in the North after White Harbor, and thus should have a significantly larger army than House Karstark which only controls a castle. The composition of the Dustin home army is uncertain, so we can assume the same foot-horse ratio as the rest of the North, which is 4-1.

House Florent: Fields roughly 2,000 men, a large proportion of whom are cavalry (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Florent). As the foot-horse ratio of the Reach is between 2-1 and 3-1, we can assume the former.
House Forrester: At their peak, they were at least as powerful as House Whitehill which has 519 men after the war (they were likely more powerful at their peak). They had 52 men-at-arms remaining at Ironrath, and could raise another 30-40 levies according to Royland Degore (2014 game). The composition of the Forrester army is uncertain, so we can assume the same foot-horse ratio as the rest of the North, which is 4-1 (excluding the 40 peasant levies), and they have two named knights (Royland Degore and Malcolm Branfield).
House Frey: Walder Frey contributed 3,000 foot and 1,000 knights to Robb Stark's army (ASOS, Chapter 14, Catelyn II), leaving 400 men to defend the Twins (S01E09). The composition of the Frey home army is uncertain, so we can assume the same foot-horse ratio as the rest of the Riverlands, which is 3-1.
House Karstark: Rickard Karstark commanded 2,000 foot and 300 horse in the march south (AGOT, Chapter 53, Bran VI). Arnolf Karstark joins the March on Winterfell with 400 spearmen, 40 archers and 12 mounted lancers (ADWD, Chapter 62, the Sacrifice).
House Manderly: Wyman Manderly sent 1,280 pikemen, 200 mounted soldiers and 20 knights to join Robb Stark's army (AGOT, Chapter 55, Catelyn VIII). They have over 100 landed knights in total (ADWD, Chapter 29, Davos IV); thus we can assume that they only sent a fifth of their forces. The composition of the Manderly home army is uncertain, so we can assume the same foot-horse ratio as the rest of the North, which is 4-1 (including the knights). They sent 200 men-at-arms and 100 knights to the March on Winterfell (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/March_on_Winterfell), and we can assume these were part of the home army and not sent south. The Manderly fleet has at least 23 war galleys, with many more claimed (ADWD, Chapter 15, Davos II).
House Whitehill: Ludd Whitehill raised 500 men-at-arms for the Siege of Ironrath (2014 game, E06). These exclude those previously killed: 1 (determinant) in E01, 1 (Britt, determinant) in E03, 8 in E05, and 9 in E06. The composition of the Whitehill army is uncertain, so we can assume the same foot-horse ratio as the rest of the North, which is 4-1.

Other notes:

House Hightower has at least 3 times more men than any other Tyrell bannermen (AFFC, Chapter 45, Samwell V), including the Redwynes who thus cannot have 20,000 men under their command. They also have a fleet of unspecified size.

House Mallister has a fleet of 6 longships and 2 war galleys (ASOS, Chapter 45, Catelyn V). A typical longship has 50 oarmen and a war galley closer to 100, meaning House Mallister must have at the very least 500 men dedicated to their fleet. As one of the more powerful houses in the Riverlands, they should have many more men than that, so I will not use a mere 500 as an estimation.

House Redwyne commands 200 warships and 1,000 trading vessels (AFFC, Chapter 32, Cersei VII). If we assume all 200 warships are war galleys, they should each require 100 oarsmen: 20,000 men in total. This is not impossible, given the immense manpower of the Reach (over 100,000 men combined), but still unlikely - especially given that the Hightowers should be 3 times as powerful. The Redwyne fleet likely requires crewmen from many different areas of the Reach.

House Stark's home army could raise 600 men from Winterfell (ACOK, Chapter 66, Theon VI), but it is unknown how many Starks marched south.

House Umber, when put together with the Boltons, Karstarks, and Manderlys, and excluding the Starks, has more men than the rest of the North combined (S06E02). I have done a number of calculations which bring me many more or less plausible answers, but most likely none were accurate as I do not know the Stark numbers.

House Westerling could only contribute 38 infantry and 12 knights to Robb Stark's army (ASOS, Chapter 14, Catelyn II). However, this was after they had fought in the war for a year and their keep had just been conquered by the Northmen. Their peak strength is unknown, as their only casualties mentioned are 1 man killed by Grey Wind (ASOS, Chapter 14, Catelyn II) .

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I want to point out that information about Forrester and Whitehill  come from GoT Telltale which is part of show canon but not part of the book canon. In the books Forresters are a humble clan sworn to the Glovers of Deepwood Motte. 

Apart from that your calculations seem to be OK.

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Just now, Blue Tiger said:

I want to point out that information about Forrester and Whitehill  come from GoT Telltale which is part of show canon but not part of the book canon. In the books Forresters are a humble clan sworn to the Glovers of Deepwood Motte. 

Apart from that your calculations seem to be OK.

To clarify, all canon and semi-canon sources are valid, unless they contradict one another. If any contradictions arise. this is the descending order of what is "more" canon than the other:

  1. Books.
  2. Semi-canon material related to the books, such as The World of Ice and Fire.
  3. Statements by George R. R. Martin.
  4. The TV show.
  5. Statements by the producers of the TV show.
  6. Any games.

The numbers listed for the houses Forrester and Whitehill are not contradicted (or even mentioned) in any other source, and thus they are acceptable for this thread.

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6 minutes ago, Alexander Targaryen said:

To clarify, all canon and semi-canon sources are valid, unless they contradict one another. If any contradictions arise. this is the descending order of what is "more" canon than the other:

  1. Books.
  2. Semi-canon material related to the books, such as The World of Ice and Fire.
  3. Statements by George R. R. Martin.
  4. The TV show.
  5. Statements by the producers of the TV show.
  6. Any games.

The numbers listed for the houses Forrester and Whitehill are not contradicted (or even mentioned) in any other source, and thus they are acceptable for this thread.

Don't you think that one source saying that they are a humble clan and other saying that they are a House sworn to Winterfell with nearly 700 men is a clear contradiction?

 

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4 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Don't you think that one source saying that they are a humble clan and other saying that they are a House sworn to Winterfell with nearly 700 men is a clear contradiction?

 

I agree with you that the game made them a bit too impressive for a House barely mentioned in the books, but I still don't think there are any clear contradictions against their power. They were obviously rivals with House Whitehill (with a confirmed strength of 500 men at the Siege of Ironrath) and implied to be more powerful at their peak, something that is never denied in any canon material. While far below the Boltons, the Karstarks and the Manderlys in strength and influence, they should still have been a noteworthy House given that they were to lead the vanguard in the charge for Casterly Rock (something never contradicted in any canon material). A clear contradiction would be if any higher canon source said something specific like "The Greatjon was to lead the vanguard in the assault on Casterly Rock" or "Only a hundred Forresters joined Robb Stark's army in the march south". Until something like that is published, I believe we can keep them in the list. It's good that you're attentive on these details, though.

3 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

By the way, The World of Ice and Fire is canon, it has been confirmed by George and Ran. Semi-canon are Wow previews, things like Extended Westerlands chapter from TWOIAF published by GRRM on his website and SSMs.

My mistake. I didn't mean that it is non-canon or semi-canon; I only meant that I consider George R. R. Martin's original works to be "more" canon than anything someone else has written, should any contradictions arise.

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I don't understand how the Mallisters would have less than 1000 men. They're a major house in the Riverlands, they guard against the Ironborn, and if every noble house in the North can muster a force of more than 1000 men, I find it really hard to believe that the Mallisters are so weak.

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17 minutes ago, James Steller said:

I don't understand how the Mallisters would have less than 1000 men. They're a major house in the Riverlands, they guard against the Ironborn, and if every noble house in the North can muster a force of more than 1000 men, I find it really hard to believe that the Mallisters are so weak.

The problem is simple: Those are minimum numbers, explicitly mentioned somewhere on page. And as such utterly useless. Because it's never mentioned whether that would be one or one hundred percent of a house's given strength.

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Roose says his men are the majority of the 3500 men he brings to the Twins. So probably around 2000 at least then, to make that an easily observable fact if one looks at the host at a glance.

That is further clarified in Dance, when Theon says that the majority of the 4000 Northmen returning through the Neck are Dreadfort men. So again, if that is easily observable to Theon at a glance, then it probably needs to be significantly more than half of the host. So I would move the minimum number of Dreadfort men up to 2500 out of the 4000. Now, it could certainly be more, but that becomes problematic if one tries to fit that into the 12000 men originally assembled at Winterfell. The more Bolton men there are, the less there are to allocate to the other major Houses there.

So in short, I think a number of around 2500 is probably a reasonable middle ground, making them the largest single contributor to the Stark host, meeting the requirement of being the majority of the 4000 northmen marching past Moat Cailin in Dance, while still not bringing the other contributors to the Winterfell host down too much.

To that we have to add Ramsay's 600 cream of the crop soldiers from Roose's personal garrison. And for the record, from the description of the Battle of Winterfell it seems a large component - perhaps all of this host - appears to have been mounted.

In any case, this still does not give us the maximum Bolton host. Only the ones that we have been shown so far, because unlike the likes of the Karstarks or Umbers, we are not told that the Boltons are down to green boys or old men. So we have seen around 3100 crack troops from the Dreadfort, without necessarily seeing their full potential.

As for the Manderlys, from a lot of evidence in the books, they almost surely exceed the Boltons in strength by a significant margin. Even after losing their entire southern force, and after losing the Battle of Winterfell under Ser Rodrik's command, they still have more heavy cavalry than the Boltons. Again, this does not give us a maximum number for their cavalry. Only a minimum, which is at least 200 or so more heavy cavalry than the Boltons. Now, if the Boltons had the standard 25% heavy cavalry (northern knights) component to their forces, then the Dreadfort likely can raise around 1000 armoured lances. Similar to House Frey, therefore.

That means that at a minimum the Manderlys could likely have raised around 1200 mounted lances at the start of the series. But there is no reason why it could not be 1500 or even more. They have more than House Bolton, even now, after their losses. We don't know how many more. Their full strength is almost certainly around 6000 men, at the least. Of which around 4000 would still be remaining today. And this is before you add the men Davos saw them recruiting in White Harbor - where they are taking in any able bodied male taller than 5 feet, who can hold a spear, or something to that effect.

As for House Dustin. It is highly likely that they are more powerful than House Karstark. Their lands are far warmer, and they have a far larger settlement as their capital. The second largest settlement in the North, in fact. And lands that are twice as large as that of the Karstarks.

The Dustins would be more wealthy, and most likely more populous, than the Karstarks. So I would give them at least 3000 men. If not more.

I guess that's the extent of what we know for a fact of the Northern Houses. Other than the Mountain Clans. Who are not really Houses as such.

 

 

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The Telltale video games are part of the TV show canon, not the book canon, and that is made explicitly clear in the games themselves (they use the TV music, logo and voice actors). Nothing in the Telltale video games should be considered to have anything whatsoever to do with the books.

The earlier Cyanide RPG isn't really canon either (since it draws on book lore but uses some of the TV actors and music), although GRRM played a larger, hands-on role for that game (he checked the script, which to my knowledge he never did for the Telltale game).

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On 2016-05-24 at 0:24 AM, James Steller said:

I don't understand how the Mallisters would have less than 1000 men. They're a major house in the Riverlands, they guard against the Ironborn, and if every noble house in the North can muster a force of more than 1000 men, I find it really hard to believe that the Mallisters are so weak.

Agreed. 500 men is the minimum number of men they have dedicated to their fleet, and they likely have several thousands on land. I didn't mean to include them in the top list in the first place, but I've left that information as a note at the bottom.

9 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

Where did these foot to horse ratios come from?

There was a well-written article on the Game of Thrones wiki which listed the manpower and foot-horse ratios of each region in Westeros, but the article has since then been removed (or possibly just renamed). I believe that the source of the information was the A Game of Thrones d20-based Open Gaming RPG, but I cannot say for certain as I do not have it. The information was canon, or at least semi-canon, given by George R. R. Martin himself. The information fortunately remains on some other locations on the Internet:

Dorne: 50,000 men with an unknown but good foot to horse ratio.

The Iron Islands: 20,000 men, all foot.

The North: 45,000 men with a 4-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Reach: 100,000 men with a 2-1 or 3-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Riverlands: 45,000 men with a 3-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Stormlands: 30,000 men with an unknown but poor foot to horse ratio.

The Vale: 45,000 men with a 3-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Westerlands: 60,000 men with a 2-1 foot to horse ratio.

8 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Roose says his men are the majority of the 3500 men he brings to the Twins. So probably around 2000 at least then, to make that an easily observable fact if one looks at the host at a glance.

That is further clarified in Dance, when Theon says that the majority of the 4000 Northmen returning through the Neck are Dreadfort men. So again, if that is easily observable to Theon at a glance, then it probably needs to be significantly more than half of the host. So I would move the minimum number of Dreadfort men up to 2500 out of the 4000. Now, it could certainly be more, but that becomes problematic if one tries to fit that into the 12000 men originally assembled at Winterfell. The more Bolton men there are, the less there are to allocate to the other major Houses there.

So in short, I think a number of around 2500 is probably a reasonable middle ground, making them the largest single contributor to the Stark host, meeting the requirement of being the majority of the 4000 northmen marching past Moat Cailin in Dance, while still not bringing the other contributors to the Winterfell host down too much.

To that we have to add Ramsay's 600 cream of the crop soldiers from Roose's personal garrison. And for the record, from the description of the Battle of Winterfell it seems a large component - perhaps all of this host - appears to have been mounted.

In any case, this still does not give us the maximum Bolton host. Only the ones that we have been shown so far, because unlike the likes of the Karstarks or Umbers, we are not told that the Boltons are down to green boys or old men. So we have seen around 3100 crack troops from the Dreadfort, without necessarily seeing their full potential.

As for the Manderlys, from a lot of evidence in the books, they almost surely exceed the Boltons in strength by a significant margin. Even after losing their entire southern force, and after losing the Battle of Winterfell under Ser Rodrik's command, they still have more heavy cavalry than the Boltons. Again, this does not give us a maximum number for their cavalry. Only a minimum, which is at least 200 or so more heavy cavalry than the Boltons. Now, if the Boltons had the standard 25% heavy cavalry (northern knights) component to their forces, then the Dreadfort likely can raise around 1000 armoured lances. Similar to House Frey, therefore.

That means that at a minimum the Manderlys could likely have raised around 1200 mounted lances at the start of the series. But there is no reason why it could not be 1500 or even more. They have more than House Bolton, even now, after their losses. We don't know how many more. Their full strength is almost certainly around 6000 men, at the least. Of which around 4000 would still be remaining today. And this is before you add the men Davos saw them recruiting in White Harbor - where they are taking in any able bodied male taller than 5 feet, who can hold a spear, or something to that effect.

As for House Dustin. It is highly likely that they are more powerful than House Karstark. Their lands are far warmer, and they have a far larger settlement as their capital. The second largest settlement in the North, in fact. And lands that are twice as large as that of the Karstarks.

The Dustins would be more wealthy, and most likely more populous, than the Karstarks. So I would give them at least 3000 men. If not more.

I guess that's the extent of what we know for a fact of the Northern Houses. Other than the Mountain Clans. Who are not really Houses as such.

 

 

 

Thank you for this informative post. I'm glad I'm not the only one on here who cares about the military power of minor houses. All your estimations and calculations seem correct. I will add House Dustin to the list as having 3,000+ men, which I believe is an indisputable minimum. In fact, they may very well have more men than House Bolton, given their control of Barrowton - which, as you said, is the second largest town in the North. If White Harbor is any comparison, they should definitely have a larger army than most Northern Houses, as the Manderlys can (according to my calculations) field as many as 7,500 men.

 

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17 minutes ago, Alexander Targaryen said:

Agreed. 500 men is the minimum number of men they have dedicated to their fleet, and they likely have several thousands on land. I didn't mean to include them in the top list in the first place, but I've left that information as a note at the bottom.

There was a well-written article on the Game of Thrones wiki which listed the manpower and foot-horse ratios of each region in Westeros, but the article has since then been removed (or possibly just renamed). I believe that the source of the information was the A Game of Thrones d20-based Open Gaming RPG, but I cannot say for certain as I do not have it. The information was canon, or at least semi-canon, given by George R. R. Martin himself. The information fortunately remains on some other locations on the Internet:

Dorne: 50,000 men with an unknown but good foot to horse ratio.

The Iron Islands: 20,000 men, all foot.

The North: 45,000 men with a 4-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Reach: 100,000 men with a 2-1 or 3-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Riverlands: 45,000 men with a 3-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Stormlands: 30,000 men with an unknown but poor foot to horse ratio.

The Vale: 45,000 men with a 3-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Westerlands: 60,000 men with a 2-1 foot to horse ratio.

 

Thank you for this informative post. I'm glad I'm not the only one on here who cares about the military power of minor houses. All your estimations and calculations seem correct. I will add House Dustin to the list as having 3,000+ men, which I believe is an indisputable minimum. In fact, they may very well have more men than House Bolton, given their control of Barrowton - which, as you said, is the second largest town in the North. If White Harbor is any comparison, they should definitely have a larger army than most Northern Houses, as the Manderlys can (according to my calculations) field as many as 7,500 men.

 

Dorne only has 15K men

Have you not seen Arianne and Areos chapters?!

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6 hours ago, Alexander Targaryen said:

There was a well-written article on the Game of Thrones wiki which listed the manpower and foot-horse ratios of each region in Westeros, but the article has since then been removed (or possibly just renamed). I believe that the source of the information was the A Game of Thrones d20-based Open Gaming RPG, but I cannot say for certain as I do not have it. The information was canon, or at least semi-canon, given by George R. R. Martin himself. The information fortunately remains on some other locations on the Internet:

Dorne: 50,000 men with an unknown but good foot to horse ratio.

The Iron Islands: 20,000 men, all foot.

The North: 45,000 men with a 4-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Reach: 100,000 men with a 2-1 or 3-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Riverlands: 45,000 men with a 3-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Stormlands: 30,000 men with an unknown but poor foot to horse ratio.

The Vale: 45,000 men with a 3-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Westerlands: 60,000 men with a 2-1 foot to horse ratio.

That's been soundly disproven even before t was actually published in the first place, much less three primary books and a bunch of secondary ones later.

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10 hours ago, Alexander Targaryen said:

Agreed. 500 men is the minimum number of men they have dedicated to their fleet, and they likely have several thousands on land. I didn't mean to include them in the top list in the first place, but I've left that information as a note at the bottom.

There was a well-written article on the Game of Thrones wiki which listed the manpower and foot-horse ratios of each region in Westeros, but the article has since then been removed (or possibly just renamed). I believe that the source of the information was the A Game of Thrones d20-based Open Gaming RPG, but I cannot say for certain as I do not have it. The information was canon, or at least semi-canon, given by George R. R. Martin himself. The information fortunately remains on some other locations on the Internet:

Dorne: 50,000 men with an unknown but good foot to horse ratio.

The Iron Islands: 20,000 men, all foot.

The North: 45,000 men with a 4-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Reach: 100,000 men with a 2-1 or 3-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Riverlands: 45,000 men with a 3-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Stormlands: 30,000 men with an unknown but poor foot to horse ratio.

The Vale: 45,000 men with a 3-1 foot to horse ratio.

The Westerlands: 60,000 men with a 2-1 foot to horse ratio.

 

Thank you for this informative post. I'm glad I'm not the only one on here who cares about the military power of minor houses. All your estimations and calculations seem correct. I will add House Dustin to the list as having 3,000+ men, which I believe is an indisputable minimum. In fact, they may very well have more men than House Bolton, given their control of Barrowton - which, as you said, is the second largest town in the North. If White Harbor is any comparison, they should definitely have a larger army than most Northern Houses, as the Manderlys can (according to my calculations) field as many as 7,500 men.

 

The reason the artikel was removed is because the rpg data is not canon, GRRM never looked at the rpg beyond the main outline, the figures for the regions strenght and foot to horse ratio did not come from him.

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A little bit more on the Umber strength. Based on the Wiki, which has proven to be of a hit and miss nature when it comes to figures - Hother and Mors split the remaining Umber forces in half in Dance. Hother is stated to march 300 spearmen and 100 archers to Moat Cailin. If so, then it would imply that House Umber has approximately 800 men in the field in Dance, split roughly equally between Mors and Hother.

This is interesting, because it is close to twice the number that Arnolf Karstark has with him in the Wolfswood (400 spearmen, 40 archers and a dozen mounted lances I believe).

So, this means that the Umber contingent in Robb's host could have been as low as 1900 men and House Umber would still be of roughly equal strength to House Karstark.

Given the prominence of House Umber in Robb's war councils, and in the order of march, as well as the size of their lands in close proximity to the Karstark lands I find it likely that they are of similar strength. The Karstarks may have slightly more, if also you consider the modest number of men they may have contributed to Ser Rodrik's host.

 

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On 2016-05-25 at 1:29 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

Dorne only has 15K men

Have you not seen Arianne and Areos chapters?!

15,000 seems like an awfully small number compared to the other regions, though 50,000 is implied to be an overestimation which Doran Martell agrees to in order to make his kingdom appear stronger. They are likely closer to 25,000, though we don't really have a specific number.

On 2016-05-26 at 7:25 AM, Bright Blue Eyes said:

That's been soundly disproven even before t was actually published in the first place, much less three primary books and a bunch of secondary ones later.

Note that no kingdom would ever be willing nor capable of amassing their entire available manpower simultaneously, nor equip them properly. For example, Robb Stark marched south with 20,000 Northmen and not 45,000, because the latter would mean every single House in the North gathered every single soldier they had, including raw recruits and old veterans. No House would realistically send everything they had to an offensive war and leave the home front undefended, nor would any but the absolutely wealthiest of Houses be able to supply and equip large armies of men. The Reach was (claimed but not proven) capable of sending 100,000 men to Renly's aid in the (very short) march to King's Landing, but I've heard estimations saying their total manpower could be closer to 200,000. Besides, a medieval society with its limited means of communication, its poor infrastructure and greatly decentralized government would not be able to accurately predetermine their fighting strength until they actually tried amassing their armies. However, I have an obsession with numbers, statistics and comparisons like these, so even if we have to use semi-canon material or even personal estimation I want to improve this thread further with more information.

20 hours ago, direpupy said:

The reason the artikel was removed is because the rpg data is not canon, GRRM never looked at the rpg beyond the main outline, the figures for the regions strenght and foot to horse ratio did not come from him.

Of course, the numbers are not written in stone, but I still think it's worth mentioning in this thread so we will have some idea of the comparative strength of the regions of Westeros. As I said before, it would not be possible to give an accurate number to the fighting strength of each kingdom.

16 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

A little bit more on the Umber strength. Based on the Wiki, which has proven to be of a hit and miss nature when it comes to figures - Hother and Mors split the remaining Umber forces in half in Dance. Hother is stated to march 300 spearmen and 100 archers to Moat Cailin. If so, then it would imply that House Umber has approximately 800 men in the field in Dance, split roughly equally between Mors and Hother.

This is interesting, because it is close to twice the number that Arnolf Karstark has with him in the Wolfswood (400 spearmen, 40 archers and a dozen mounted lances I believe).

So, this means that the Umber contingent in Robb's host could have been as low as 1900 men and House Umber would still be of roughly equal strength to House Karstark.

Given the prominence of House Umber in Robb's war councils, and in the order of march, as well as the size of their lands in close proximity to the Karstark lands I find it likely that they are of similar strength. The Karstarks may have slightly more, if also you consider the modest number of men they may have contributed to Ser Rodrik's host.

 

Indeed, House Umber had 800 men left in their home army, mostly green boys and old veterans, and it is confirmed that most of their forces had gone south - indicating that 1,600 is an absolute minimum for their total manpower, though the home army is likely not even a third of their total force.

As you said, 1,900 may be more accurate if we want to estimate them as equal to House Karstark. But no statements are ever made that those two houses are of comparable strength.

However, since House Umber has a home army twice the size of House Karstark, this could mean they have twice as many men in general - roughly 5,500, which I think is a too high number.

And then we have Ramsay Bolton's claim in S06E02, that the Umbers, Manderlys, Karstarks and Boltons together have more men than the rest of the North combined (excluding House Stark). We can make several estimations from this:

- The Northern army that marched south numbered 18,000 Northmen, including 3,500 Boltons, 2,300 Karstarks, 1,500 Manderlys and an unknown number of Stark men. Ignoring the Starks, the Umbers should thus have contributed 1,700 men in order for the listed houses to make up half the Northern force. However, if we include the Starks, no matter what number we estimate for them, it would reduce the Umber strength greatly.

- The RPG guide states that the North can raise up to 45,000 fighting men. These would include 4,100 Boltons, 2,752 Karstarks, 7,500 Manderlys and an unknown number of Stark men (let's assume the same strength as the Boltons). This means the Umbers should have a maximum fighting strength of 4,048 men. I think this is the most accurate estimation I've made so far.

 

Any thoughts on this? House Umber's strength has always eluded me, because all the estimations I've made have so vastly different conclusions. 1,600 to 5,500, as you see here, and even greater numbers in some other calculations.

 

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24 minutes ago, Alexander Targaryen said:

15,000 seems like an awfully small number compared to the other regions, though 50,000 is implied to be an overestimation which Doran Martell agrees to in order to make his kingdom appear stronger. They are likely closer to 25,000, though we don't really have a specific number.

Note that no kingdom would ever be willing nor capable of amassing their entire available manpower simultaneously, nor equip them properly. For example, Robb Stark marched south with 20,000 Northmen and not 45,000, because the latter would mean every single House in the North gathered every single soldier they had, including raw recruits and old veterans. No House would realistically send everything they had to an offensive war and leave the home front undefended, nor would any but the absolutely wealthiest of Houses be able to supply and equip large armies of men. The Reach was (claimed but not proven) capable of sending 100,000 men to Renly's aid in the (very short) march to King's Landing, but I've heard estimations saying their total manpower could be closer to 200,000. Besides, a medieval society with its limited means of communication, its poor infrastructure and greatly decentralized government would not be able to accurately predetermine their fighting strength until they actually tried amassing their armies. However, I have an obsession with numbers, statistics and comparisons like these, so even if we have to use semi-canon material or even personal estimation I want to improve this thread further with more information.

Of course, the numbers are not written in stone, but I still think it's worth mentioning in this thread so we will have some idea of the comparative strength of the regions of Westeros. As I said before, it would not be possible to give an accurate number to the fighting strength of each kingdom.

Indeed, House Umber had 800 men left in their home army, mostly green boys and old veterans, and it is confirmed that most of their forces had gone south - indicating that 1,600 is an absolute minimum for their total manpower, though the home army is likely not even a third of their total force.

As you said, 1,900 may be more accurate if we want to estimate them as equal to House Karstark. But no statements are ever made that those two houses are of comparable strength.

However, since House Umber has a home army twice the size of House Karstark, this could mean they have twice as many men in general - roughly 5,500, which I think is a too high number.

And then we have Ramsay Bolton's claim in S06E02, that the Umbers, Manderlys, Karstarks and Boltons together have more men than the rest of the North combined (excluding House Stark). We can make several estimations from this:

- The Northern army that marched south numbered 18,000 Northmen, including 3,500 Boltons, 2,300 Karstarks, 1,500 Manderlys and an unknown number of Stark men. Ignoring the Starks, the Umbers should thus have contributed 1,700 men in order for the listed houses to make up half the Northern force. However, if we include the Starks, no matter what number we estimate for them, it would reduce the Umber strength greatly.

- The RPG guide states that the North can raise up to 45,000 fighting men. These would include 4,100 Boltons, 2,752 Karstarks, 7,500 Manderlys and an unknown number of Stark men (let's assume the same strength as the Boltons). This means the Umbers should have a maximum fighting strength of 4,048 men. I think this is the most accurate estimation I've made so far.

 

Any thoughts on this? House Umber's strength has always eluded me, because all the estimations I've made have so vastly different conclusions. 1,600 to 5,500, as you see here, and even greater numbers in some other calculations.

 

A few problems there. The Show numbers are wrong. They cannot be used for substantiating the size of Book armies.

As for Robb's army. It seems that he actually marched South with 19500 men. Robb refers to 18000 men when he meets with Catelyn, who was riding at the head of the Manderly host, before the Manderlys 1500 men had joined with Robb's gathered host yet. This interpretation is supported by 3 more references that I can recall.

First, Robb says that he outnumbers Walder Frey's 4000 troops 5-1 at the Twins. This equates to 20000 men. Secondly, Renly tells Catelyn that his information is that Robb crossed the Neck with 20000 men. And thirdly, Theon says in Dance that 20000 Northmen "or near enough to make no matter", marched South, but only 1 in 5 was returning.

So we have three references to 20000 men, which would tie in with Robb's reference to 18000 men if he had not yet included the recently arrived Manderlys' 1500 men when he made that comment. 19500 is therefore the likely strength of Robb's Northern host.

As for the Umbers. The main problem is the original 12000 men gathered at Winterfell. A number I'm convinced Martin didn't think through properly. Because if the Umbers brought a similar number of men as the Karstarks did, and if the Boltons brought significantly more than half of 4000 men, as we know they did, then that leaves very little men for the other assembled lords to have contributed. Particularly if you consider that House Stark on their own should surely be able to contribute more than anyone else, given that their men don't have to march any great distance to get to Winterfell, but are drawn from the surrounding countryside.

So that screws around with giving any Houses other than the Boltons more men than the Karstarks in Robb's original host.

Regarding Dorne, I honestly don't know where the figures of 15k or even 25k come from. All we know is that 50k was a significant overstatement of their strength, and that they in fact have the lowest numbers of the mainland kingdoms.

If, as we suspect, the Stormlands can raise in the region of 30k men - based on their estimated contribution to Renly's host - then I guess we know that Dorne must be lower than that, so 25k becomes a reasonable upper limit. But if the Stormlands can actually raise 35k men - which is not beyond the realm of possibility - then Dorne could well be as high as 30k.

15k seems way too low for Dorne, in my view.

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4 hours ago, Alexander Targaryen said:

Note that no kingdom would ever be willing nor capable of amassing their entire available manpower simultaneously, nor equip them properly. For example, Robb Stark marched south with 20,000 Northmen and not 45,000, because the latter would mean every single House in the North gathered every single soldier they had, including raw recruits and old veterans. No House would realistically send everything they had to an offensive war and leave the home front undefended, nor would any but the absolutely wealthiest of Houses be able to supply and equip large armies of men. The Reach was (claimed but not proven) capable of sending 100,000 men to Renly's aid in the (very short) march to King's Landing, but I've heard estimations saying their total manpower could be closer to 200,000. Besides, a medieval society with its limited means of communication, its poor infrastructure and greatly decentralized government would not be able to accurately predetermine their fighting strength until they actually tried amassing their armies. However, I have an obsession with numbers, statistics and comparisons like these, so even if we have to use semi-canon material or even personal estimation I want to improve this thread further with more information.

Of course, the numbers are not written in stone, but I still think it's worth mentioning in this thread so we will have some idea of the comparative strength of the regions of Westeros. As I said before, it would not be possible to give an accurate number to the fighting strength of each kingdom.

You don't need to tell that to me, I've been preaching it since 2011 :P

 

The problem lies elsewhere:

45,000 as an estimate for the North is too low. Far too low. Robb's initial host, the hosts being marched around by four out ~15 houses in Dance and the Manderly estimates already make up 45,000 and more, while leaving more than two third of the major houses with no soldiers at all. That may be an result of GRRM scrapping the 5-year-gap, retconjuring 20,000 additional men into the North instead of having Robb's lost host replaced naturally, but it's a given nevertheless.

The Westerlands 60,000 are actually the ones proving those numbers wrong as early as the second book. Tywin got 20,000. Jaime got 15,000, 4,000 of whom retreated to the Westerlands and formed the core of Stafford's army at Oxcross (about 10,000 in total), which already relied heavily upon nonprofessionals. So, about 35,000 professionals, maybe up to 41,000 while scraping the barrel, recruiting for almost two years. Including a whole bunch of mercenaries.

No, the Westerlands don't have 60,000. They are hardpressed to achieve 40,000 and that was proven as early as the Battle of Oxcross.

Dorne has been proven wrong by Doran's own statements in Feast.

 

40% proven utterly wrong, and the rest lacking information one way or another. Those numbers are useless.

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