Military strengths of the Houses of Westeros

[John Doe]

45k for the North is generous.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You know it, I know it, everybody spending a bit of time at the boards knows it: we've already had that particular discussion about 100 times without agreement. It's about 70,000, give or take.

I'm not going to rehash the same old arguments for the umpteenth time without new information. You'll have to wait for Winds of Winter.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

A few problems there. The Show numbers are wrong. They cannot be used for substantiating the size of Book armies.

Agreed. All show and game numbers should be ignored.

 

I also agree on the 20k. I just don't think Robb counted the Manderlys when he told his mother his number.

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

 

 

As for the Umbers. The main problem is the original 12000 men gathered at Winterfell. A number I'm convinced Martin didn't think through properly. Because if the Umbers brought a similar number of men as the Karstarks did, and if the Boltons brought significantly more than half of 4000 men, as we know they did, then that leaves very little men for the other assembled lords to have contributed.

 

Two things

1) We don't know that the Boltons brought significantly more than 2k. I imagine it was around that number but there is no evidence for any number apart from that majority of Roose's 3,500 host at the Twins was Bolton men.

2) While I think the Umbers brought a considerable amount of men I doubt it was anywhere near as many as the Karstarks supplied. There is just not any evidence that they were as numerous as the Karstarks, Boltons and Freys in Roose's army. Umber or their sigil is rarely, if ever mentioned by Arya, Tyrion and Brienne who see this army up close.

Tyrion

 

• Gods be damned, look at them all, Tyrion thought, though he knew his father had more men on the field. Their captains led them on armored warhorses, standard-bearers riding alongside with their banners. He glimpsed the bull moose of the Hornwoods, the Karstark sunburst, Lord Cerwyn's battle-axe, and the mailed fist of the Glovers … and the twin towers of Frey, blue on grey.
• A crescent of enemy spearmen had formed ahead, a double hedgehog bristling with steel, waiting behind tall oaken shields marked with the sunburst of Karstark.
• He glimpsed Timett son of Timett vault free as his mount died under him in full stride, saw a Moon Brother impaled on a Karstark spear, watched Conn's horse shatter a man's ribs with a kick.
• "My liege, we have taken some of their commanders. Lord Cerwyn, Ser Wylis Manderly, Harrion Karstark, four Freys. Lord Hornwood is dead, and I fear Roose Bolton has escaped us."

Arya

• She tried to judge how many prisoners there were, but lost count before she got to fifty. There were twice that many at least. Their clothing was stained with mud and blood, and in the torchlight it was hard to make out all their badges and sigils, but some of those Arya glimpsed she recognized. Twin towers. Sunburst. Bloody man. Battle-axe. The battle-axe is for Cerwyn, and the white sun on black is Karstark. They're northmen. My father's men, and Robb's. She didn't like to think what that might mean.
• No one ransomed the northmen, though. One fat lordling haunted the kitchens, Hot Pie told her, always looking for a morsel. His mustache was so bushy that it covered his mouth, and the clasp that held his cloak was a silver-and-sapphire trident. He belonged to Lord Tywin, but the fierce, bearded young man who liked to walk the battlements alone in a black cloak patterned with white suns had been taken by some hedge knight who meant to get rich off him.

Jaime

• Bolton gave a soft chuckle. "Harrion Karstark was captive here when we took the castle, did you know? I gave him all the Karhold men still with me and sent him off with Glover.

Brienne

• There was clothing to be had as well: leather boots, fur cloaks, stained surcoats with suspicious rents. She knew many of the badges. The mailed fist, the moose, the white sun, the double-bladed axe, all those were northern sigils.

Bonus data from Rooses army

• "No." Bolton's voice was soft, but certain. "I left six hundred men at the ford. Spearmen from the rills, the mountains, and the White Knife, a hundred Hornwood longbows, some freeriders and hedge knights, and a strong force of Stout and Cerwyn men to stiffen them. Ronnel Stout and Ser Kyle Condon have the command.
• Two-thirds of my strength was on the north side when the Lannisters attacked those still waiting to cross. Norrey, Locke, and Burley men chiefly, with Ser Wylis Manderly and his White Harbor knights as rear guard. I was on the wrong side of the Trident, powerless to help them. Ser Wylis rallied our men as best he could, but Gregor Clegane attacked with heavy horse and drove them into the river.

Now while there was clearly some Umber men with Roose the lack of any mentions of the suggests there was not many.  Certainly, IMO, not in the Karstark, Bolton and Manderly ballparks.

[Free Northman Reborn]

25 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Agreed. All show and game numbers should be ignored.

 

I also agree on the 20k. I just don't think Robb counted the Manderlys when he told his mother his number.

 

Two things

1) We don't know that the Boltons brought significantly more than 2k. I imagine it was around that number but there is no evidence for any number apart from that majority of Roose's 3,500 host at the Twins was Bolton men.

2) While I think the Umbers brought a considerable amount of men I doubt it was anywhere near as many as the Karstarks supplied. There is just not any evidence that they were as numerous as the Karstarks, Boltons and Freys in Roose's army. Umber or their sigil is rarely, if ever mentioned by Arya, Tyrion and Brienne who see this army up close.

Tyrion

 

• Gods be damned, look at them all, Tyrion thought, though he knew his father had more men on the field. Their captains led them on armored warhorses, standard-bearers riding alongside with their banners. He glimpsed the bull moose of the Hornwoods, the Karstark sunburst, Lord Cerwyn's battle-axe, and the mailed fist of the Glovers … and the twin towers of Frey, blue on grey.
• A crescent of enemy spearmen had formed ahead, a double hedgehog bristling with steel, waiting behind tall oaken shields marked with the sunburst of Karstark.
• He glimpsed Timett son of Timett vault free as his mount died under him in full stride, saw a Moon Brother impaled on a Karstark spear, watched Conn's horse shatter a man's ribs with a kick.
• "My liege, we have taken some of their commanders. Lord Cerwyn, Ser Wylis Manderly, Harrion Karstark, four Freys. Lord Hornwood is dead, and I fear Roose Bolton has escaped us."

Arya

• She tried to judge how many prisoners there were, but lost count before she got to fifty. There were twice that many at least. Their clothing was stained with mud and blood, and in the torchlight it was hard to make out all their badges and sigils, but some of those Arya glimpsed she recognized. Twin towers. Sunburst. Bloody man. Battle-axe. The battle-axe is for Cerwyn, and the white sun on black is Karstark. They're northmen. My father's men, and Robb's. She didn't like to think what that might mean.
• No one ransomed the northmen, though. One fat lordling haunted the kitchens, Hot Pie told her, always looking for a morsel. His mustache was so bushy that it covered his mouth, and the clasp that held his cloak was a silver-and-sapphire trident. He belonged to Lord Tywin, but the fierce, bearded young man who liked to walk the battlements alone in a black cloak patterned with white suns had been taken by some hedge knight who meant to get rich off him.

Jaime

• Bolton gave a soft chuckle. "Harrion Karstark was captive here when we took the castle, did you know? I gave him all the Karhold men still with me and sent him off with Glover.

Brienne

• There was clothing to be had as well: leather boots, fur cloaks, stained surcoats with suspicious rents. She knew many of the badges. The mailed fist, the moose, the white sun, the double-bladed axe, all those were northern sigils.

Bonus data from Rooses army

• "No." Bolton's voice was soft, but certain. "I left six hundred men at the ford. Spearmen from the rills, the mountains, and the White Knife, a hundred Hornwood longbows, some freeriders and hedge knights, and a strong force of Stout and Cerwyn men to stiffen them. Ronnel Stout and Ser Kyle Condon have the command.
• Two-thirds of my strength was on the north side when the Lannisters attacked those still waiting to cross. Norrey, Locke, and Burley men chiefly, with Ser Wylis Manderly and his White Harbor knights as rear guard. I was on the wrong side of the Trident, powerless to help them. Ser Wylis rallied our men as best he could, but Gregor Clegane attacked with heavy horse and drove them into the river.

Now while there was clearly some Umber men with Roose the lack of any mentions of the suggests there was not many.  Certainly, IMO, not in the Karstark, Bolton and Manderly ballparks.

Good observations. Just one thing to add. Roose's description of the majority of his 3500 being Dreadfort men is further expanded by Theon to say that the majority of the 4000 men returning through Moat Cailin are Dreadfort men. So since this is readily apparent to Theon at a glance this implies to me that the Boltons are a significant majority of the 4000. So I'd suggest 2500 at least, if not closer to 3000.

Edit

It would also fit with the theme that they were the largest contingent in Robb's army, larger than the Karstark 2300.

[Azai]

I really enjoyed the break down. Any other chance's we'll see lots of the Dorne/Vale banners in the future? Or is there too little information to try to figure out how many men they can field per household?

[Alexander Targaryen]

16 hours ago, Azai said:

I really enjoyed the break down. Any other chance's we'll see lots of the Dorne/Vale banners in the future? Or is there too little information to try to figure out how many men they can field per household?

Well, we have some implications of the Vale numbers, but none are accurate enough for them to be included in the top list, unfortunately:

Houses Belmore, Hunter, Redfort, Royce, Templeton, and Waynwood could each raise 1,000 men at a moment's notice (AFFC, Chapter 23, Alayne I). Together they can muster 20,000 men if needed (AFFC, Chapter 10, Sansa I), so we could make a very rough estimation that each of those Houses can field around 3,000 men, but their strengths should be more varied. Furthermore, the Gates of the Moon has an active garrison of 300 men under Lord Nestor Royce (AFFC, Chapter 23, Alayne I), but I cannot say if they answer to House Royce, a mixture of Houses, or the Lord of the Vale personally.

 

As for Dorne, however, we have no implication of the strength of any House, and even the total manpower of the region is uncertain (estimates ranging from as low as 15,000 to 50,000).

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 hours ago, Alexander Targaryen said:

Houses Belmore, Hunter, Redfort, Royce, Templeton, and Waynwood could each raise 1,000 men at a moment's notice (AFFC, Chapter 23, Alayne I). Together they can muster 20,000 men if needed (AFFC, Chapter 10, Sansa I), so we could make a very rough estimation that each of those Houses can field around 3,000 men, but their strengths should be more varied.

 

The 20k is those Houses plus the Lordly Houses Coldwater and Tollett, the knightly House Shett and possibly the Corbrays. Lords Coldwater, Tollett and Ser Shett are all vassals of Lord Royce so were not included on the Lords Declarant parchment but are part of the 20k.

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The 20k is those Houses plus the Lordly Houses Coldwater and Tollett, the knightly House Shett and possibly the Corbrays. Lords Coldwater, Tollett and Ser Shett are all vassals of Lord Royce so were not included on the Lords Declarant parchment but are part of the 20k.

Just to note.

If you are a vassal to a bannerlord, then you are not a primary bannerlord by definition. Just like House Stout's forces forms part of House Dustin's strength. So the vassals to House Royce should not be counted separately, but instead included in House Royce's strength.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Just to note.

If you are a vassal to a bannerlord, then you are not a primary bannerlord by definition. Just like House Stout's forces forms part of House Dustin's strength. So the vassals to House Royce should not be counted separately, but instead included in House Royce's strength.

 

Why not?

Why can you not count Lord Coldwaters own forces because he swears fealty to Lord Royce but can count Lord Royces forces even though he is swears fealty to Lord Arryn?

House Stout are petty lords, Houses Coldwater and Tollett are actual Lords.

As shown in the appendices

• BARBREY DUSTIN, his daughter, Lady of Barrowton, widow of Lord Willam Dustin,
  • HARWOOD STOUT, her liege man, a petty lord at Barrowton,

 

• Bronze Yohn's bannermen and sworn swords:

• ROYCE COLDWATER, Lord of Coldwater Burn,
• SER DAMON SHETT, Knight of Gull Tower,
• UTHOR TOLLETT, Lord of the Grey Glen,

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Why not?

Why can you not count Lord Coldwaters own forces because he swears fealty to Lord Royce but can count Lord Royces forces even though he is swears fealty to Lord Arryn?

House Stout are petty lords, Houses Coldwater and Tollett are actual Lords.

As shown in the appendices

• BARBREY DUSTIN, his daughter, Lady of Barrowton, widow of Lord Willam Dustin,
  • HARWOOD STOUT, her liege man, a petty lord at Barrowton,

 

• Bronze Yohn's bannermen and sworn swords:

• ROYCE COLDWATER, Lord of Coldwater Burn,
• SER DAMON SHETT, Knight of Gull Tower,
• UTHOR TOLLETT, Lord of the Grey Glen,

 

Basically, anyone not sworn to the Lord Paramount is a "petty" lord. But petty lords just vary considerably in strength - from Rohanne Webber who could raise maybe 30 troops or whatever, to lords that can probably raise 500 or more.

In any case, I am supporting your point, that when they say the 6 Lords Declarant can raise 20k men, that includes all of their vassals strength too.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Basically, anyone not sworn to the Lord Paramount is a "petty" lord. But petty lords just vary considerably in strength - from Rohanne Webber who could raise maybe 30 troops or whatever, to lords that can probably raise 500 or more.

In any case, I am supporting your point, that when they say the 6 Lords Declarant can raise 20k men, that includes all of their vassals strength too.

As I've said already once, there is no reason to make that distinction. There is no textual confirmation that the strength of this or that house is limited to the levies they can raise themselves without relying on the allegiance of their vassals. Both for great and smaller houses.

In essence, the Iron Throne or this or that great house can consider its vassal's vassals as their own men because, you know, they are.

[Free Northman Reborn]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As I've said already once, there is no reason to make that distinction. There is no textual confirmation that the strength of this or that house is limited to the levies they can raise themselves without relying on the allegiance of their vassals. Both for great and smaller houses.

In essence, the Iron Throne or this or that great house can consider its vassal's vassals as their own men because, you know, they are.

I'm not sure what you're arguing against.

House Frey can raise 4000 men. But that is not from the Twins alone. That is from all of their dozen or so vassal lords, and their scores of landed knights. All of those vassals together add up to House Frey's 4000 men.

Martin has not created lordly ranks like earl, duke, count, baron, viscount and so on. So basically, what he left us with are Lords Paramount (House Tully), the vassals to the lords Paramount (House Frey) and then the petty lords sworn to House Frey. And then there might be landed knights sworn to some of the stronger petty lords and so on and so forth.

But it is clear that Lord Manderly, for example, does not distinguish between the lords sworn to him. To him,  all dozen of them are petty lords, whether they can raise 50 men or 500 men.

So petty lord here is not used to only refer to the smallest and weakest of lords, but rather as a collective term for Houses that are vassals to the vassals of the Lord's Paramount.

So as I said, I'm not sure what you are arguing against.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

I'm not sure what you're arguing against.

House Frey can raise 4000 men. But that is not from the Twins alone. That is from all of their dozen or so vassal lords, and their scores of landed knights. All of those vassals together add up to House Frey's 4000 men.

Where is that stated?

Lord Charlton is sworn to House Frey, with lands of their own. They may have followed Walder's lead and kept their men at whatever their castle/settlement is called or may have even sent men to Riverrun.

Lord Tywin's host was still many days to the south … but Walder Frey, Lord of the Crossing, had assembled a force of near four thousand men at his castles on the Green Fork.

Seems unlikely that Lord Charlton would allow his lands to be left wide open and sending all his men to the Twins.

I can understand Knightly Houses doing that (Haigh and Nayland for example) as their lands fall within Lords Frey but that would not be the same of another Lord with his own lands to protect.

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Where is that stated?

Lord Charlton is sworn to House Frey, with lands of their own. They may have followed Walder's lead and kept their men at whatever their castle/settlement is called or may have even sent men to Riverrun.

Lord Tywin's host was still many days to the south … but Walder Frey, Lord of the Crossing, had assembled a force of near four thousand men at his castles on the Green Fork.

Seems unlikely that Lord Charlton would allow his lands to be left wide open and sending all his men to the Twins.

I can understand Knightly Houses doing that (Haigh and Nayland for example) as their lands fall within Lords Frey but that would not be the same of another Lord with his own lands to protect.

I think you are looking for more in my statement than I am actually saying. I'm not trying to make the point that the Freys are maxed out at 4000 men, having drawn every last scrap from every one of their vassal lords. I'm sure the various vassal lords contributed to the Frey's call to banners in varying levels of commitment.

The point I am making is that just like Robb's 20k northern host consists of Karstark, Bolton, Umber, Dustin and other men from very one of his banner lords, so in general, the Frey host or the Mallister host or the Rowan host will consist of soldiers from their respective bannermen.

Same with House Royce. So if Royce can raise a maximum of 6000 soldiers, then those 6000 soldiers will be drawn from all of his bannermen.

[Lord Varys]

@Free Northman Reborn

I did not want to argue against anything. I tried to point out that the men of this or that lord - regardless whether he has lordly vassals of his own not - essentially are his own men as well as the men his vassals (great lords, lords, petty lords, landed knights, etc) can raise.

If we talk about the strength of House Stark we talk about the entire North not about 'the men of Winterfell'. When we talk about the strength of House Frey we talk about all the strength of all the men directly sworn to House Frey as well as about the strength of House Frey's individual vassals.

In fact, we actually do not know if (or which of) the great houses actually do control any levies directly. It is entirely possible that House Stark or Lannister doesn't have direct control of much of 'their land' or 'their subjects' because the direct controls lies in the hands of other lords and knights.

Granted, each great house has a household guard and some men-at-arms and such but if we take Dragonstone as an example than even a great seat doesn't actually control many men directly. This might be due to the particular island situation and such but we have actually no clue where exactly the lands of, say, the Lannisters of Casterly Rock end and the lands of their nearest vassals begin.

If we take the Starks as example we know that the Cerwyn lands must begin pretty close to Winterfell, and we also know that huge portions of the close by Wolfswood are controlled by the Glovers. Not to mention the levies of the Crownlands - all of them seem to be controlled by their own lords rather than the villages and towns owing directly fealty to the Iron Throne.

[Free Northman Reborn]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn

I did not want to argue against anything. I tried to point out that the men of this or that lord - regardless whether he has lordly vassals of his own not - essentially are his own men as well as the men his vassals (great lords, lords, petty lords, landed knights, etc) can raise.

If we talk about the strength of House Stark we talk about the entire North not about 'the men of Winterfell'. When we talk about the strength of House Frey we talk about all the strength of all the men directly sworn to House Frey as well as about the strength of House Frey's individual vassals.

In fact, we actually do not know if (or which of) the great houses actually do control any levies directly. It is entirely possible that House Stark or Lannister doesn't have direct control of much of 'their land' or 'their subjects' because the direct controls lies in the hands of other lords and knights.

Granted, each great house has a household guard and some men-at-arms and such but if we take Dragonstone as an example than even a great seat doesn't actually control many men directly. This might be due to the particular island situation and such but we have actually no clue where exactly the lands of, say, the Lannisters of Casterly Rock end and the lands of their nearest vassals begin.

If we take the Starks as example we know that the Cerwyn lands must begin pretty close to Winterfell, and we also know that huge portions of the close by Wolfswood are controlled by the Glovers. Not to mention the levies of the Crownlands - all of them seem to be controlled by their own lords rather than the villages and towns owing directly fealty to the Iron Throne.

Well exactly. Then we are saying the same thing. Hence my question as to what in my post you were disputing?

Let's take the Glovers as an example. Stannis's host passes from the Glover lands on day two of their march, somewhere at the 30-40 mile mark from Deepwood Motte. But Deepwood is not located at the center of this circle, as it is located much closer to the coast than 30 miles. So their direct lands clearly don't include a 30 mile radius in all directions.

But let's make it a 30 mile radius, for argument's sake. In that case, they rule about 3600 square miles of land. At a ratio of say 5 people per square mile, that would give you about 18,000 people on the Glover lands.

At the standard 1% ratio, that means they can raise 180 men from their directly controlled lands. The remaining men they can raise to presumably get to a figure of 1000 would come from their vassals who live outside of this radius.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@Free Northman Reborn

If we take the Starks as example we know that the Cerwyn lands must begin pretty close to Winterfell, and we also know that huge portions of the close by Wolfswood are controlled by the Glovers. Not to mention the levies of the Crownlands - all of them seem to be controlled by their own lords rather than the villages and towns owing directly fealty to the Iron Throne.

Well, in case of the Glovers we actually know. They are Stark men, same as the Tallharts. Just Masters of their keeps, not Lords in their own right.

 

Of course that is a purely legal issue, with hardly any relevance for realpolitics.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Well, in case of the Glovers we actually know. They are Stark men, same as the Tallharts. Just Masters of their keeps, not Lords in their own right.

 

Of course that is a purely legal issue, with hardly any relevance for realpolitics.

There is no mentioning that the Glovers aren't legally lords in any sense of the word. Masters might not be the Northern equivalent to landed knights, after all.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no mentioning that the Glovers aren't legally lords in any sense of the word. Masters might not be the Northern equivalent to landed knights, after all.

No, but it seems they are not the equivalent to Lords either.

GRRM lists them and the Tallharts as Masters in the Appendix. Which suggests they are either a higher or lower rank than the Northern Lords he also lists.

Personally I think it is a lower rank with both the Glovers and Tallharts sworn directly to the Lord Stark, that is why when he needs Moat Cailin to be prepared without raising suspicion he tells Cat to have the Glovers and Tallharrts send men rather than the closer Manderlys, Cerwyns or Dustins.

There is also a reference to two of two Harlaws who are masters of their individual castles while being sworn to Rodrik.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said:

No, but it seems they are not the equivalent to Lords either.

GRRM lists them and the Tallharts as Masters in the Appendix. Which suggests they are either a higher or lower rank than the Northern Lords he also lists.

Personally I think it is a lower rank with both the Glovers and Tallharts sworn directly to the Lord Stark, that is why when he needs Moat Cailin to be prepared without raising suspicion he tells Cat to have the Glovers and Tallharrts send men rather than the closer Manderlys, Cerwyns or Dustins.

There is also a reference to two of two Harlaws who are masters of their individual castles while being sworn to Rodrik.

Yeah, I know they are not lords. But what difference there is legally between a lord and a master we do not know. A landed knight just owns land, he doesn't have rule over his people, and has no right to sit in judgment over the peasants working on his land.

A master might have all those rights.

And the masterly houses in the North (although perhaps not all those branches of House Harlaw) clearly is no castellan, either. Those families apparently hold their castles and lands for generations and are not easily ousted or replaced.

In that sense I don't think there is a difference between a lord and and a master insofar as the whole military aspect is concerned. Just as the mountain clan chieftains are essentially the same as lords in that regard (although perhaps not insofar as true lordly privileges like the ruling stuff is concerned).