Military strengths of the Houses of Westeros

[Corvo the Crow]

This will be on Mance's "host"; How many Wildlings does he have and how many among them could be fighters.

I know there are other threads about the wildlings but all the ones I found were long dead so I'll put this here.

 

Mance: As many as 40000 wildlings. Note that this doesn't represent the entire population of the North but those who survived long enough to join Mance and later kept surviving until around old Bear's ranging.

Spearwives: Not enough information but %7-14 of the women being spearwives is a possibility.

Man of fighting age: Again not enough information but could be as much as %28 of the entire host.

Spearwife to fighting men ratio: A ratio of 1:4 to 1:8 seems possible with the numbers at hand.

 

Quote

Thoren Smallwood had returned in a lather three days past. While he was telling the Old Bear what his scouts had seen, his man Kedge Whiteye told the rest of edge said, warming his hands over the fire." , but they're coming,” Kedge said, warming his  hands over the fire. “Harma the Dogshead has the van, the poxy bitch. Goady crept up on her camp and saw her plain by the fire That fool Tumberjon wanted to pick her off with an arrow, but Smallwood had better sense.” Chett spat, “How many were there, could you tell?” Many and more. Twenty, thirty thousand, we didn't stay to count. Hamma had five "Many and more. Twenty, thirty thousand, we didn't stay to count. Hamma had five hundred in the van, every one ahorse.” The men around the fire exchanged uneasy looks. It was a rare thing to find even a dozen mounted wildlings, and five hundred...

 

One blow will take all the fight out of them and send them howling back to their hovels for another fifty years.” Three hundred against thirty thousand. Chett called rank madnes...

From ACOK Prologue

 

Quote

Jon had no doubt that they would.The Old Bear might at least have listened, though he would have balked at the notion of letting thirty or forty thousand wildlings loose on the Seven Kingdoms. But Alliser Thorne and Janos Slynt would dismiss the notion out of hand.

"You fought us hard here." Tormund turned his garron back toward the wildling camp. "You and your brothers. I give you that. Two hundred dead, and a dozen giants. Mag himself went in that gate o' yours and never did come out."
 

The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."
Mance ran a hand along the curve of the great horn. "No man goes hunting with only one arrow in his quiver," he said. "I had hoped that Styr and Jarl would take your brothers unawares, and open the gate for us. I drew your garrison away with feints and raids and secondary attacks. Bowen Marsh swallowed that lure as I knew he would, but your band of cripples and orphans proved to be more stubborn than anticipated. Don't think you've stopped us, though. The truth is, you are too few and we are too many. I could continue the attack here and still send ten thousand men to cross the Bay of Seals on rafts and take Eastwatch from the rear. I could storm the Shadow Tower too, I know the approaches as well as any man alive. I could send men and mammoths to dig out the gates at the castles you've abandoned, all of them at once."
"Why don't you, then?" Jon could have drawn Longclaw then, but he wanted to hear what the wildling had to say.
"Blood," said Mance Rayder. "I'd win in the end, yes, but you'd bleed me, and my people have bled enough."
"Your losses haven't been that heavy."
"Not at your hands." Mance studied Jon's face. "You saw the Fist of the First Men. You know what happened there. You know what we are facing."
"The Others . . . "
"They grow stronger as the days grow shorter and the nights colder. First they kill you, then they send your dead against you. The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Thenns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots."
"Nor you?"

Some quotes from ASOS 73

It appears  that Mance has around 30000-40000 Wildlings coming with him. But how many are fighters?

Quote

There they are. Four thousand, Tormund claims.” “Three thousand, I make them, by the fires.” Bowen Marsh lived for counts and measures. “More than twice that number at Hardhome with the woods witch, we are told. And Ser Denys writes of great camps in the mountains beyond the Shadow Tower.

Tormund Giantsbane timed his arrival perfectly, thundering up with his warriors when all the shoveling was done. Only fifty seemed to have turned up, , not the eighty Toregg promised Leathers, but Tormund was not called Tall Talker for naught.

...There were three women for every man, many with children--pale skinny things clutching at their skirts.
Jon saw very few babes in arms. The babes in arms died during the march, he realized, and those who survived
the battle died in the king's stockade.

The fighters had fared better. Three hundred men of fighting age, Justin Massey had claimed in council ...
There will be spearwives too. Fifty, sixty, maybe as many as a hundred. Fell's count had included men who
had suffered wounds, Jon knew. He saw a score of those--men with empty sleeves and missing hands, men with one
eye or half a face, a legless man carried between two friends. And every one grey-faced and gaunt. Broken men,
he thought. The wights are not the only sort of living dead."

Several quotes from different chapters.

Stannis killed a thousand and captured another thousand. Three hundred men of fighting age seems possible as when Alys marries Sigorn Jon claims to Cregan Karstark Alys now has 200 Thenns (may add the quote later on if I can find) This would leve us with 700 women. 700/300=2.33, so it seems right. Of this 700 women, at least 50 are spearwives with a possibility of as many as 100. This would give us a ratio of %7-14 for fighters among women.

As for men of fighting age, Tormund has 50 among 3000, Jon has 300 among 1000. Just counting these people it makes %9 fighting men among the entire wildling population. Adding those who died earlier, 1000 killed by Stannis, 200 from Mance's main host, and 100 Thenns and 20 with Jarl, It would give us as many as %28 men of fighting age, if all these losses are men.

Of course these are just estimations on what we have, If the 10000 Mance says he could send would be fighters alone then it would make at least %25 men of fighting age in his host. If those mentioned above are the only fighting men in his host, then %4 of his people would be man of fighting age.

If there Women to Men ratio in Mance's army is 1:1 then, taking the result of above calculations true, then 56 out of every 100 men would be men who are of fighting age and with that number changing to %7-14 for women. Which would mean 8:1 to 4:1 ratio of fighting men to fighting women, if all men of fighting age are fighters.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

On 2016-05-24 at 9:57 PM, Alexander Targaryen said:

This thread will be dedicated to facts and estimations regarding the military strength of the many houses in Westeros. Books, TV shows, games and even personal estimations (if based on confirmed information; see my House Manderly estimate for example) are valid. This opening post will be consistently updated if new numbers that seem correct are added by other forum members. Great Houses are not listed, as they command all other Houses in their region.

House Baratheon of Dragonstone: 3,400 men (3,000 foot, 400 knights), 160 ships (80 galleys, 80 other ships)
House Baratheon of King's Landing: 6,300 men (6,000 city watch, 300 knights), 45 ships (all war galleys)
House Bolton: 4,100 men (3,680 foot, 920 horse)
House Caron: 2,400 men (2,000 foot, 400 knights)
House Dondarrion: 2,400 men (2,000 foot, 400 knights)

House Dustin: 3,000+ men (2,400 foot, 600 horse)
House Florent: 2,000 men (1,333 foot, 667 horse)
House Forrester: 613 men (498 foot, 113 horse, 2 knights)
House Frey: 4,400 men (3,300 foot, 100 horse, 1,000 knights)
House Karstark: 2,752 men (2,000 foot, 400 spearmen, 40 archers, 300 horse, 12 mounted lancers)
House Manderly: 7,500 men (4,700 foot, 1,280 pikemen, 1,400 horse, 120 knights), 23 ships (all war galleys)
House Whitehill: 519 men (415 foot, 104 horse)

SOURCES AND CALCULATIONS:

House Baratheon of Dragonstone: Dragonstone can raise 3,000 men-at-arms and 400 knights, and it's fleet is 80 galleys and 80 other ships (A Game of Thrones RPG).
House Baratheon of King's Landing: Excluding sellswords, the relief force and those that left the city prior to the Blackwater, the defense of King's Landing included 2,000 Goldcloaks, 4,000 Goldcloak recruits, 300 knights and men-at-arms, and over 45 war galleys (ACOK, Chapter 49, Tyrion XI).
House Bolton: Roose Bolton commanded 3,500 men in the march south (ASOS, Chapter 49, Catelyn VI) and Ramsay Bolton led 600 men in the Battle at Winterfell (ACOK, Chapter 66, Theon VI). The composition of the Bolton home army is uncertain, so we can assume the same foot-horse ratio as the rest of the North, which is 4-1.
House Caron: In 206 AC, House Dondarrion and House Caron together mustered 4,000 foot and 800 knights (THK). We can assume they contributed half each, and that their power has not drastically changed since that date.
House Dondarrion: In 206 AC, House Dondarrion and House Caron together mustered 4,000 foot and 800 knights (THK). We can assume they contributed half each, and that their power has not drastically changed since that date.
House Dustin: Controls Barrowton, the second-largest town in the North after White Harbor, and thus should have a significantly larger army than House Karstark which only controls a castle. The composition of the Dustin home army is uncertain, so we can assume the same foot-horse ratio as the rest of the North, which is 4-1.

House Florent: Fields roughly 2,000 men, a large proportion of whom are cavalry (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Florent). As the foot-horse ratio of the Reach is between 2-1 and 3-1, we can assume the former.
House Forrester: At their peak, they were at least as powerful as House Whitehill which has 519 men after the war (they were likely more powerful at their peak). They had 52 men-at-arms remaining at Ironrath, and could raise another 30-40 levies according to Royland Degore (2014 game). The composition of the Forrester army is uncertain, so we can assume the same foot-horse ratio as the rest of the North, which is 4-1 (excluding the 40 peasant levies), and they have two named knights (Royland Degore and Malcolm Branfield).
House Frey: Walder Frey contributed 3,000 foot and 1,000 knights to Robb Stark's army (ASOS, Chapter 14, Catelyn II), leaving 400 men to defend the Twins (S01E09). The composition of the Frey home army is uncertain, so we can assume the same foot-horse ratio as the rest of the Riverlands, which is 3-1.
House Karstark: Rickard Karstark commanded 2,000 foot and 300 horse in the march south (AGOT, Chapter 53, Bran VI). Arnolf Karstark joins the March on Winterfell with 400 spearmen, 40 archers and 12 mounted lancers (ADWD, Chapter 62, the Sacrifice).
House Manderly: Wyman Manderly sent 1,280 pikemen, 200 mounted soldiers and 20 knights to join Robb Stark's army (AGOT, Chapter 55, Catelyn VIII). They have over 100 landed knights in total (ADWD, Chapter 29, Davos IV); thus we can assume that they only sent a fifth of their forces. The composition of the Manderly home army is uncertain, so we can assume the same foot-horse ratio as the rest of the North, which is 4-1 (including the knights). They sent 200 men-at-arms and 100 knights to the March on Winterfell (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/March_on_Winterfell), and we can assume these were part of the home army and not sent south. The Manderly fleet has at least 23 war galleys, with many more claimed (ADWD, Chapter 15, Davos II).
House Whitehill: Ludd Whitehill raised 500 men-at-arms for the Siege of Ironrath (2014 game, E06). These exclude those previously killed: 1 (determinant) in E01, 1 (Britt, determinant) in E03, 8 in E05, and 9 in E06. The composition of the Whitehill army is uncertain, so we can assume the same foot-horse ratio as the rest of the North, which is 4-1.

Other notes:

House Hightower has at least 3 times more men than any other Tyrell bannermen (AFFC, Chapter 45, Samwell V), including the Redwynes who thus cannot have 20,000 men under their command. They also have a fleet of unspecified size.

House Mallister has a fleet of 6 longships and 2 war galleys (ASOS, Chapter 45, Catelyn V). A typical longship has 50 oarmen and a war galley closer to 100, meaning House Mallister must have at the very least 500 men dedicated to their fleet. As one of the more powerful houses in the Riverlands, they should have many more men than that, so I will not use a mere 500 as an estimation.

House Redwyne commands 200 warships and 1,000 trading vessels (AFFC, Chapter 32, Cersei VII). If we assume all 200 warships are war galleys, they should each require 100 oarsmen: 20,000 men in total. This is not impossible, given the immense manpower of the Reach (over 100,000 men combined), but still unlikely - especially given that the Hightowers should be 3 times as powerful. The Redwyne fleet likely requires crewmen from many different areas of the Reach.

House Stark's home army could raise 600 men from Winterfell (ACOK, Chapter 66, Theon VI), but it is unknown how many Starks marched south.

House Umber, when put together with the Boltons, Karstarks, and Manderlys, and excluding the Starks, has more men than the rest of the North combined (S06E02). I have done a number of calculations which bring me many more or less plausible answers, but most likely none were accurate as I do not know the Stark numbers.

House Westerling could only contribute 38 infantry and 12 knights to Robb Stark's army (ASOS, Chapter 14, Catelyn II). However, this was after they had fought in the war for a year and their keep had just been conquered by the Northmen. Their peak strength is unknown, as their only casualties mentioned are 1 man killed by Grey Wind (ASOS, Chapter 14, Catelyn II) .

Florent should have 1000+ cavalry since they were in the vanguard of the blackwater and should have taken heavy casualties and they still made up around half of Stannis army afterwards of 1500 men.

Karstark should have 3000 troops because they sent troops to winterfell that got killed by ramsay.

I would guess Manderly has 4500 troops. They are a rich house and if we assume they have a third of their forces in cavalry it would fit pretty well that they have more cavalry than any other lord in the north in dance. I don't think they would have more troops than King's Landing.

Oldtown is similar in size to King's landing so it would be reasonable to assume that they would have 6000 troops. Florent are stated to have 2000 and they are one of the strongest houses in the reach so that x3 would be 6000.

We can assume that House Stark has around the same strength of house bolton since historicaly it's been a close match between them. Also they left behind equally large garrisons so it would be reasonable to assume Robb had 3500 Winterfell men come with him south.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

18 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

 

We can assume that House Stark has around the same strength of house bolton since historicaly it's been a close match between them. Also they left behind equally large garrisons so it would be reasonable to assume Robb had 3500 Winterfell men come with him south.

 

We have no idea how many men they left as garrisons. Winterfell normally has 200 guards and the 600 men Rodrik gathered to help Torrhen's comes from nearby holdfasts as well as Winterfell guards Rodrik took with him. As for Ramsay he doesn't have 600 men as garrison nor does he have that many men with him, why everyone keeps repeating this is beyond me.  He's raising levies before kidnapping Lady Donella.  You can read my post on it on the previous page.

 

This will be on Reach and Stormlands.

 

Renly: He has some 80000 with him at Bitterbridge; 60000 foot, 10000 knights and 10000 light cavalry. He also has 10000 with Mace Tyrell.

 

Reach + Stormlands: It is rather likely they have more than 120000 men together.

 

Quote

“It is as you warned him. They will not rise, Maester. Not for him. They do not love him.” No, Cressen thought. Nor will they ever. He is strong, able, just… aye, just past the point of wisdom . . . yet it is not enough. It has never been enough. “You spoke to them all?” “All? No. Only those that would see me. They do not love me either, these highborns.To them I'll always be the Onion Knight.” His left hand closed, stubby fingers locking Stannis had hacked the ends off at the last joint, all but the thumb. “I broke bread with Gulian Swann and old Penrose, and the Tarths consented to a midnight meeting in a grove. The others— well, Beric Dondarrion is gone missing, some say dead, and Lord Caron is with Renly. Bryce the Orange, of the Rainbow Guard.”

 

Quote

 

The storm lords will not rise for me. It seems they do not like me, and the justice of my cause means nothing to them. The cravenly ones will sit behind their walls waiting to see how the wind rises and who is likely to triumph. The bold ones have already declared for Renly. For Renly!” He spat out the name like poison on his tongue.

 

 

Quote

 "I am informed that Renly Baratheon has marched from Highgarden. He is making his way up the roseroad, with all his strength behind him."
"Varys gave me the same report."
"He could be here by the full moon."
"Not at his present leisurely pace," Tyrion assured her. "He feasts every night in a different castle, and holds court at every crossroads he passes."
"And every day, more men rally to his banners. His host is now said to be a hundred thousand strong."
"That seems rather high."
"He has the power of Storm's End and Highgarden behind him, you little fool," Cersei snapped down at him. "All the Tyrell bannermen but for the Redwynes, and you have me to thank for that. So long as I hold those poxy twins of his, Lord Paxter will squat on the Arbor and count himself fortunate to be out of it."
 

From a Tyrion chapter. Renly's host is said to be 100000 strong and it is getting stronger as days pass, or more likely as he travels; Catelyn meets Renly near Bitterbridge. Lord Caswell of bitterbridge later shuts himself to his castle when Randyl Tarly comes and starts slaughtering soldiers that are like to join Stannis. So at this point Renly still hasn't reached his full strength yet, lords of the Reach join him on the move, as he travels near their lands.

Quote

Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife's brothers and uncles, they will make me king. All the chivalry of the south rides with me, and that is the least part of my power. My foot is coming behind, a hundred thousand swords and spears and pikes. And you will destroy me? With what, pray? That paltry rabble I see there huddled under the castle walls? I'll call them five thousand and be generous, codfish lords and onion knights and sellswords. Half of them are like to come over to me before the battle starts. You have fewer than four hundred horse, my scouts tell me—freeriders in boiled leather who will not stand an instant against armored lances. I do not care how seasoned a warrior you think you are, Stannis, that host of yours won't survive the first charge of my vanguard."

Renly says his foot coming behind is 100000 strength. We know it isn't and he's saying this to Stannis, the man who is said to know how many men can every house in Westeros raise. He can not hope to fool Stannis... unless it's not entirely a lie and even though he doesn't have this number he expects to reach this by the time he's done gathering his strength or at least it is possible to reach it if every lord from the Reach and Stormlands join him.

 

Quote

. "Joff will be so disappointed," he said. "He was saving such a nice spike for Renly's head. But whoever did the deed, we must assume Stannis was behind it. The gain is clearly his." He did not like this news; he had counted on the brothers Baratheon decimating each other in bloody battle. He could feel his elbow throbbing where the morningstar had laid it open. It did that sometimes in the damp. He squeezed it uselessly in his hand and asked, "What of Renly's host?"
"The greater part of his foot remains at Bitterbridge." Varys abandoned the brazier to take his seat at the table. "Most of the lords who rode with Lord Renly to Storm's End have gone over banner-and-blade to Stannis, with all their chivalry."
"Led by the Florents, I'd wager," said Littlefinger.
Varys gave him a simpering smile. "You would win, my lord. Lord Alester was indeed the first to bend the knee. Many others followed."
"Many," Tyrion said pointedly, "but not all?"
"Not all," agreed the eunuch. "Not Loras Tyrell, nor Randyll Tarly, nor Mathis Rowan. And Storm's End itself has not yielded. Ser Cortnay Penrose holds the castle in Renly's name, and will not believe his liege is dead. He demands to see the mortal remains before he opens his gates, but it seems that Renly's corpse has unaccountably vanished. Carried away, most likely. A fifth of Renly's knights departed with Ser Loras rather than bend the knee to Stannis. It's said the Knight of Flowers went mad when he saw his king's body, and slew three of Renly's guards in his wrath, among them Emmon Cuy and Robar Royce."

Quote

 "Doubtless you know your son better than I do," he made himself tell Cersei, "but regardless, there's still much to be said for a Tyrell marriage. It may be the only way that Joffrey lives long enough to reach his wedding night."
Littlefinger agreed. "The Stark girl brings Joffrey nothing but her body, sweet as that may be. Margaery Tyrell brings fifty thousand swords and all the strength of Highgarden."
"Indeed." Varys laid a soft hand on the queen's sleeve. "You have a mother's heart, and I know His Grace loves his little sweetling. Yet kings must learn to put the needs of the realm before their own desires. I say this offer must be made."

Two quotes from ACOK 36, Tyrion.

 

Quote

As the long fingers of dawn fanned across the fields, color was returning to the world. Where grey men had sat grey horses armed with shadow spears, the points of ten thousand lances now glinted silverly cold, and on the myriad flapping banners Catelyn saw the blush of red and pink and orange, the richness of blues and browns, the blaze of gold and yellow. All the power of Storm's End and Highgarden, the power that had been Renly's an hour ago. They belong to Stannis now, she realized, even if they do not know it themselves yet. Where else are they to turn, if not to the last Baratheon? Stannis has won all with a single evil stroke.

Quote

Is it the justice of your cause you doubt, my lord, or the strength of your arm? Are you afraid I'll piss on your burning sword and put it out?"
"Do you take me for an utter fool, ser?" asked Stannis. "I have twenty thousand men. You are besieged by land and sea. Why would I choose single combat when my eventual victory is certain?"
 

Quote

...his host was largely mounted; near twenty thousand knights, light horse, and freeriders, Renly's unwilling legacy to his brother.
 

 First is from ACOK 33, Catelyn.  Ten thousand lances mean equals to ten thousand knights south of Moat Cailin.

Other two are from Davos chapters after Renly's death. After Loras and some other Reach lords leave with a fifth of Renly's horse, Stannis now has 20000 men, including his.

Quote

Now that the lords of the Trident are with him, perhaps he commands forty thousand.” No, she thought, not near so many, we have lost men in battle, and others No, she thought, not near so many, we have lost men in battle, and others to the harvest. “I have twice that number here.” Renly said, “and this is only part of my strength. Mace Tyrell remains at Highgarden with another ten thousand, I have a strong garrison holding Storm's End, and soon enough the Dornishmen will join me with all their power
 

Quote

Ser Cortnay does not have the power to harm you. The Lannisters do. A siege would take too long, single combat is too chancy, and an assault would cost thousands of lives with no certainty of success. And there is no need. Once you dethrone Joffrey this castle must come to you with all the rest. It is said about the camp that Lord Tywin Lannister rushes west to rescue Lannisport from the vengeance of the northmen . . . "
"You have a passing clever father, Devan," the king told the boy standing by his elbow. "He makes me wish I had more smugglers in my service. And fewer lords. Though you are wrong in one respect, Davos. There is a need. If I leave Storm's End untaken in my rear, it will be said I was defeated here. And that I cannot permit. Men do not love me as they loved my brothers. They follow me because they fear me . . . and defeat is death to fear. The castle must fall." His jaw ground side to side. "Aye, and quickly. Doran Martell has called his banners and fortified the mountain passes. His Dornishmen are poised to sweep down onto the Marches. And Highgarden is far from spent. My brother left the greater part of his power at Bitterbridge, near sixty thousand foot. I sent my wife's brother Ser Errol with Ser Parmen Crane to take them under my command, but they have not returned. I fear that Ser Loras Tyrell reached Bitterbridge before my envoys, and took that host for his own."

First is from a Catelyn Chapter and the second is from a Davos chapter. Renly says Catelyn he has twice Robbs supposed 40000 with him, Stannis seems to confirm this number, saying Renly left 60000 foot and having now 20000 men with the exception of a fifth of Renly's cavalry.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

At the battle at winterfell there were 600 stark men and winterfell was almost completely undefended. Therefore the garrison of Winterfell can practicly be called 600 dudes.

[Ingelheim]

I'm always amazed at how sparcely populated Westeros seems to be. Going by the 1-2% rule, it seems to have half of the density Europe had at the end of the Middle Ages (pre Black Death I mean)

[Corvo the Crow]

 

Quote

Each man wore a new cloak, heavy grey wool with a white satin border. A hand of beaten silver clutched the woolen folds of each cloak and marked their wearers as men of the Hand's household guard. There were only fifty of them, so most of the benches were empty. (AGOT Arya II)

Jory and Ser Rodrik and Vayon Poole had gone too, and Hullen and Harwin and Fat Tom and a quarter of the guard.(AGOT Bran IV)

"Your lord father took the cream of his guard to King's Landing, and your brother took the rest, along with all the likely lads for leagues around. Many will not come back to us, and we must needs find the men to take their places." (AGOT Bran VII)

These are from before Ironborn attack The North, took them from another thread. Winterfell's usual garrison is 200.

 

Quote

Donella Hornwood brought no tail of knights and retainers; only herself,
and six tired men-at-arms with a moosehead badge on their dusty orange livery.

"Bolton's Bastard is massing men at the Dreadfort," she warned them. "I hope he means to take them south to join his father at the Twins, but when I sent to ask his intent,
he told me that no Bolton would be questioned by a woman. As if he were trueborn and had a right to that name."
"Lord Bolton has never acknowledged the boy, so far as I know," Ser Rodrik said. "I confess, I do not know him."
"Few do," she replied. "He lived with his mother until two years past, when young Domeric died and
left Bolton without an heir. That was when he brought his bastard to the Dreadfort

Bran wanted to give the lady a hundred men to defend her rights, but Ser Rodrik only said,
"He may look, but should he do more I promise you there will be dire retribution.
You will be safe enough, my lady . . . though perhaps in time, when your grief is passed,
you may find it prudent to wed again."

With no direct heir, there are sure to be many claimants contending for the Hornwood lands.
The Tallharts, Flints, and Karstarks all have ties to House Hornwood through the female line
and the Glovers are fostering Lord Harys's bastard at Deepwood Motte. The Dreadfort has no claim that I know,
but the lands adjoin, and Roose Bolton is not one to overlook such a chance."

Before Ramsay kidnaps Lady Donella. Ramsay's gathering men, Roose doesn't have 600 men as garrison (Nor does Ramsay have 600 men in his "army", check my post on the previous page for it).

Quote

No one came, and after a moment he remembered that no one would. They had taken the guard off his door.
Ser Rodrik had needed every man of fighting age he could lay his hands on, so Winterfell had been left with only a token garrison.
The rest had left eight days past, six hundred men from Winterfell and the nearest holdfasts.
Cley Cerwyn was bringing three hundred more to join them on the march, and Maester Luwin had sent ravens
before them, summoning levies from White Harbor and the barrowlands and even the deep places inside the
wolfswood. Torrhen's Square was under attack by some monstrous war chief named Dagmer Cleftjaw.

After Ironborn attack The North. We do not now how many men guards Winterfell before Rodrik left, but usual number is 200.

 

Quote

With thirty men, I captured Winterfell in a night. You needed a thousand and a moon's turn to take Deepwood Motte."
 

Theon to Asha. Rodrik later says Theon has no more than 50 men by all the accounts, though I couldn't find it so am unable to add here.

For Theon to take the castle with 30 men, even by surprise, I think the castle would need to be seriously undermanned. So if Rodrik brought the number of guards to 200 again after Robb left, more than 450 of that 600 would come not from Winterfells garrison but the holdfasts.

Also again on garrisons, Kings Landing, with the supposed population of half a million, had 2000 gold cloaks at the start of the series. It sems too few against sieges for a city that big but it is not constantly under siege, therefore no need to keep a huge garrison. Remember the impoverished Tarbecks, they had 50 or maybe less household knights, they later have 500. Knights and to a degree guards are standing armies, they are soldiers that cost you money and have no benefit unless you are in war. You do not waste your money unnecesarily keeping a garrison of 600 to guard a small castle with no real treasury to speak of and only some woods and small plots of farmable lands against enemies that do not even exist , which is the situation in the North.

[direpupy]

On 6-5-2017 at 11:28 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

We have no idea how many men they left as garrisons. Winterfell normally has 200 guards and the 600 men Rodrik gathered to help Torrhen's comes from nearby holdfasts as well as Winterfell guards Rodrik took with him. As for Ramsay he doesn't have 600 men as garrison nor does he have that many men with him, why everyone keeps repeating this is beyond me.  He's raising levies before kidnapping Lady Donella.  You can read my post on it on the previous page.

Here is the quote Ramsay does have 600 men with him and claims they are his fathers garrison.

A Clash of Kings - Theon VI

"Aye, but he thought us friends. A common mistake. When the old fool gave me his hand, I took half his arm instead. Then I let him see my face." The man put both hands to his helm and lifted it off his head, holding it in the crook of his arm.

"Reek," Theon said, disquieted. How did a serving man get such fine armor?

The man laughed. "The wretch is dead." He stepped closer. "The girl's fault. If she had not run so far, his horse would not have lamed, and we might have been able to flee. I gave him mine when I saw the riders from the ridge. I was done with her by then, and he liked to take his turn while they were still warm. I had to pull him off her and shove my clothes into his hands—calfskin boots and velvet doublet, silver-chased swordbelt, even my sable cloak. Ride for the Dreadfort, I told him, bring all the help you can. Take my horse, he's swifter, and here, wear the ring my father gave me, so they'll know you came from me. He'd learned better than to question me. By the time they put that arrow through his back, I'd smeared myself with the girl's filth and dressed in his rags. They might have hanged me anyway, but it was the only chance I saw." He rubbed the back of his hand across his mouth. "And now, my sweet prince, there was a woman promised me, if I brought two hundred men. Well, I brought three times as many, and no green boys nor fieldhands neither, but my father's own garrison."

[Corvo the Crow]

Here is the quote that Ramsay confirms Ser Rodrik had him five-to-one.

 

Quote

Finally a column of mounted men rode out of the drifting smoke. At their head was a knight in dark armor. His rounded helm gleamed a sullen red, and a pale pink cloak streamed from his shoulders. Outside the main gate he reined up, and one of his men shouted for the castle to open.
"Are you friend or foe?" Black Lorren bellowed down.
"Would a foe bring such fine gifts?" Red Helm waved a hand, and three corpses were dumped in front of the gates. A torch was waved above the bodies, so the defenders upon the walls might see the faces of the dead.
"The old castellan," said Black Lorren.
"With Leobald Tallhart and Cley Cerwyn." The boy lord had taken an arrow in the eye, and Ser Rodrik had lost his left arm at the elbow. Maester Luwin gave a wordless cry of dismay, turned away from the battlements, and fell to his knees sick.
"The great pig Manderly was too craven to leave White Harbor, or we would have brought him as well," shouted Red Helm.
I am saved, Theon thought. So why did he feel so empty? This was victory, sweet victory, the deliverance he had prayed for. He glanced at Maester Luwin. To think how close I came to yielding, and taking the black . . .
"Open the gates for our friends." Perhaps tonight Theon would sleep without fear of what his dreams might bring.
The Dreadfort men made their way across the moat and through the inner gates. Theon descended with Black Lorren and Maester Luwin to meet them in the yard. Pale red pennons trailed from the ends of a few lances, but many more carried battle-axes and greatswords and shields hacked half to splinters. "How many men did you lose?" Theon asked Red Helm as he dismounted.
"Twenty or thirty." The torchlight glittered off the chipped enamel of his visor. His helm and gorget were wrought in the shape of a man's face and shoulders, skinless and bloody, mouth open in a silent howl of anguish."Ser Rodrik had you five-to-one."

 

This also shows Majority of Ramsay's forces aren't mounted.

And here is the quote that we know Ser Rodrik has near two thousand men.

Quote

"Robb will never look on Winterfell again," Theon promised. "He will break himself on Moat Cailin, as every southron army has done for ten thousand years. We hold the north now, ser."
"You hold three castles," replied Ser Rodrik, "and this one I mean to take back, Turncloak."
Theon ignored that. "Here are my terms. You have until evenfall to disperse. Those who swear fealty to Balon Greyjoy as their king and to myself as Prince of Winterfell will be confirmed in their rights and properties and suffer no harm. Those who defy us will be destroyed."
Young Cerwyn was incredulous. "Are you mad, Greyjoy?"
Ser Rodrik shook his head. "Only vain, lad. Theon has always had too lofty an opinion of himself, I fear." The old man jabbed a finger at him. "Do not imagine that I need wait for Robb to fight his way up the Neck to deal with the likes of you. I have near two thousand men with me . . . and if the tales be true, you have no more than fifty."
Seventeen, in truth. Theon made himself smile. "I have something better than men." And he raised a fist over his head, the signal Black Lorren had been told to watch for.

Both are from the same chapter as the quote you gave. In fact, your quote starts just where the first quoute I gave ends, with Ramsay confirming Rodrik had five times his number.

 

Previous page also has a post with a quote of Ramsay massing men.

[Free Northman Reborn]

38 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Here is the quote that Ramsay confirms Ser Rodrik had him five-to-one.

 

This also shows Majority of Ramsay's forces aren't mounted.

And here is the quote that we know Ser Rodrik has near two thousand men.

Both are from the same chapter as the quote you gave. In fact, your quote starts just where the first quoute I gave ends, with Ramsay confirming Rodrik had five times his number.

 

Previous page also has a post with a quote of Ramsay massing men.

Martin stated in an SSM quote that various observers' estimates of the size of a host will differ widely. One guy will look at a host and call it 10,000 men, another will call it between 5,000 and 10,000, another will call it merely thousands. Take the arrival of the wildlings when they passed through the Wall, for example:

Silence greeted his pronouncement. Then Othell Yarwyck said, "Lord Commander, there are thousands of—"

"—scrawny wildlings, bone weary, hungry, far from home." Jon pointed at the lights of their campfires. "There they are. Four thousand, Tormund claims."

"Three thousand, I make them, by the fires." Bowen Marsh lived for counts and measures. "More than twice that number at Hardhome with the woods witch, we are told. And Ser Denys writes of great camps in the mountains beyond the Shadow Tower …"

 

The same applies to Ramsay's host.  What is more likely: That Theon knew better from just seeing the chaos of the battle in Wintertown how man men Ramsay had? Or that Ramsay himself knew the exact strength of his father's garrison? Logic dictates that the 600 figure for his own strength is more accurate than Theon's estimate of his strength by looking down on the battlefield from the castle walls? Consider when Theon arrived:

 

The flayed man of the Dreadfort. Reek had belonged to the Bastard of Bolton before his capture, Theon recalled. It was hard to believe that a vile creature like him could sway the Boltons to change their allegiance, but nothing else made sense. "I'll see this for myself," Theon said.

Maester Luwin trailed after him. By the time they reached the battlements, dead men and dying horses were strewn about the market square outside the gates. He saw no battle lines, only a swirling chaos of banners and blades. Shouts and screams rang through the cold autumn air. Ser Rodrik seemed to have the numbers, but the Dreadfort men were better led, and had taken the others unawares. Theon watched them charge and wheel and charge again, chopping the larger force to bloody pieces every time they tried to form up between the houses. He could hear the crash of iron axeheads on oaken shields over the terrified trumpeting of a maimed horse.

That hardly sounds like a scene from which he could accurately judge Ramsay's numbers.

As for your second assertion, namely that the description of Ramsay's arriving force somehow proves that they weren't mostly cavalry, that is incorrect. The description of the battle focuses exclusively on Ramsay's forces charging, wheeling and charging again. No mention is made of infantry engaging Rodrik's infantry. But that does not mean that all the cavalry were lancers. Mounted axemen and swordsmen formed part of Manderly's cavalry at Moat Cailin. There is no reason why they did not form part of Ramsay's force too. Similarly, considering the amount of times his cavalry charged, wheeled and charged again amidst the chaos of the narrow Wintertown streets, one would imagine that most of them would have lost their lances after a number of charges, and would have then resorted to their axes and swords to continue the battle against the superior numbers of the foes.

 

So in short, nothing in the description deviates from the impression that most of Ramsay's force consisted of cavalry. In fact, considering that he raced to get to Winterfell before Rodrik could take the castle, and barely made it with a day to spare, and that his force arrived together, strongly suggests that they were all mounted, as waiting for slower infantry would have cost them the one day that made all the difference between Rodrick being inside or outside the caslte walls when they arrived.

 

 

[direpupy]

17 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Here is the quote that Ramsay confirms Ser Rodrik had him five-to-one.

 

This also shows Majority of Ramsay's forces aren't mounted.

And here is the quote that we know Ser Rodrik has near two thousand men.

Both are from the same chapter as the quote you gave. In fact, your quote starts just where the first quoute I gave ends, with Ramsay confirming Rodrik had five times his number.

 

Previous page also has a post with a quote of Ramsay massing men.

Like free northman reborn said there is a differens between theon making an guess at how many men he see's in a battle, and a statement by the commander of a army about how many men he brought with him. whe have no reason to doubth ramsays satement of 600 men.

[Corvo the Crow]

17 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Martin stated in an SSM quote that various observers' estimates of the size of a host will differ widely. One guy will look at a host and call it 10,000 men, another will call it between 5,000 and 10,000, another will call it merely thousands. Take the arrival of the wildlings when they passed through the Wall, for example:

Silence greeted his pronouncement. Then Othell Yarwyck said, "Lord Commander, there are thousands of—"

"—scrawny wildlings, bone weary, hungry, far from home." Jon pointed at the lights of their campfires. "There they are. Four thousand, Tormund claims."

"Three thousand, I make them, by the fires." Bowen Marsh lived for counts and measures. "More than twice that number at Hardhome with the woods witch, we are told. And Ser Denys writes of great camps in the mountains beyond the Shadow Tower …"

 

 

Quote

There they are. Four thousand, Tormund claims.” “Three thousand, I make them, by the fires.” Bowen Marsh lived for counts and measures. “More than twice that number at Hardhome with the woods witch, we are told. And Ser Denys writes of great camps in the mountains beyond the Shadow Tower.

Tormund Giantsbane timed his arrival perfectly, thundering up with his warriors when all the shoveling was done. Only fifty seemed to have turned up, , not the eighty Toregg promised Leathers, but Tormund was not called Tall Talker for naught

Tormund Tall Talker, name says it all;

 

 

Quote

The same applies to Ramsay's host.  What is more likely: That Theon knew better from just seeing the chaos of the battle in Wintertown how man men Ramsay had? Or that Ramsay himself knew the exact strength of his father's garrison? Logic dictates that the 600 figure for his own strength is more accurate than Theon's estimate of his strength by looking down on the battlefield from the castle walls? Consider when Theon arrived:

 

 

That hardly sounds like a scene from which he could accurately judge Ramsay's numbers.

 

Theon may or may not have accurately judged their numbers because of the battle but Ramsay had time to do before battle, while he was approaching to Rodrik's camp. Also Theon has a chance to assess their numbers after things calmed down; he knows Rodrik has near two thousand and after the battle he has the oppurtunity to take a good look at Ramsay's numbers, which only took 20-30 casualties. Theon doesn't know the casualty number yet but he can see all the remaining men and can makes his guess of "five-to-one" after this, which Ramsay confirms I remind you again.

 

 

I've already posted all these on the previous page but will do it here again.

Quote

"Twelve thousand foot scattered around the castle in three seperate camps... two or three thousand horse. The kingslayer has us three to one," said Galbart Glover. "True enough, Ser Brynden Said..."

"Their force was greater than it had been when they left the Twins. Jason Mallister had brought his power out... others had crept forth as well, hedge knights, small lords, masterless man at arms who had fled north...

"This is about keeping my son alive and whole"... if it comes to that will thirty be enough? will six thousand be enough?"

They have six thousand and say fourteen or fifteen thousand is thrice their numbers 15/6 = 2,5 rounded to 3 14/6 = 2,33 it is also rounded to 3, so even 0,33 is rounded to the above number.

200 x 2,33= 466  ;  2000/4,33 = ~462

Rather close numbers, don't you think? Fitting both Theon's statement and Ramsay's statement. Also remember that Ramsay confirms Theon on saying Rodrik had him five to one where Rodrik doesn't even have.

Less than %1 difference between these numbers so this is how many Ramsay has.

 

 

Quote

As for your second assertion, namely that the description of Ramsay's arriving force somehow proves that they weren't mostly cavalry, that is incorrect. The description of the battle focuses exclusively on Ramsay's forces charging, wheeling and charging again. No mention is made of infantry engaging Rodrik's infantry. But that does not mean that all the cavalry were lancers. Mounted axemen and swordsmen formed part of Manderly's cavalry at Moat Cailin. There is no reason why they did not form part of Ramsay's force too. Similarly, considering the amount of times his cavalry charged, wheeled and charged again amidst the chaos of the narrow Wintertown streets, one would imagine that most of them would have lost their lances after a number of charges, and would have then resorted to their axes and swords to continue the battle against the superior numbers of the foes.

 

Quote

Ser Wylis and his brother Ser Wendel followed, leading their levies, near fifteen hundred men: some twenty-odd knights and as many squires, two hundred mounted lances, swordsmen, and freeriders, and the rest foot, armed with spears, pikes and tridents.

Guys with splintered shields could be swordsmen on horseback, true, but do you see any axemen here? Not to mention Battleaxes and Greatswords are two handed weapons used by infantry.

 

Quote

"With Leobald Tallhart and Cley Cerwyn." The boy lord had taken an arrow in the eye, and Ser Rodrik had lost his left arm at the elbow. Maester Luwin gave a wordless cry of dismay, turned away from the battlements, and fell to his knees sick.
"The great pig Manderly was too craven to leave White Harbor, or we would have brought him as well," shouted Red Helm.

So he has archers. He could have some horse archers, there are some in westeros too but it is a very rare sight, so Theon would have taken a note of it if that was the case. He also doesn't note any archers but that'd be because there would be few of them; Karstarks with Stannis are a good example. Archery takes skill and learning, you can just put a spear or an axe or a sword to a man's hand and he can use it, without training and skills he'd be bad at it but he can still use it, it isn't so with archers.  Hother Whoresbane has a hundred archers with him, a quarter of his force but he is leading the old men part of Umbers, these men would be hunters Greatjon didn't take with him because of their age.

 

Quote

So in short, nothing in the description deviates from the impression that most of Ramsay's force consisted of cavalry. In fact, considering that he raced to get to Winterfell before Rodrik could take the castle, and barely made it with a day to spare, and that his force arrived together, strongly suggests that they were all mounted, as waiting for slower infantry would have cost them the one day that made all the difference between Rodrick being inside or outside the caslte walls when they arrived.

Ramsay also seems to have a timely arrival in another case as seen in Reek II ADWD; he arrives just in time to root out the Ironborn before his father arrives. It is plot time, It happens when it needs to happen. Twins are much more closer to MC than Dreadfort yet he somehow he arrives earlier than his father.

Also another thing; Walder Frey has a thousand knights, he lives in riverlands where the land is much, much more suitable to farming than North is, his house got rich from their bridge and he only has a thousand horseman where as Roose, living in North with land far less suitable to farm and no natural resources to speak of that'd get him rich has six hundred horses at home alone? Not to mention he would bring some cavalry to Robb's army too as it'd be expected of him. Knights or household guards costs money, money Roose wouldn't have considering where he lives.

 

Bonus:

Quote

"Bolton's Bastard is massing men at the Dreadfort," she warned them. "I hope he means to take them south to join his father at the Twins, but when I sent to ask his intent,
he told me that no Bolton would be questioned by a woman. As if he were trueborn and had a right to that name."
"Lord Bolton has never acknowledged the boy, so far as I know," Ser Rodrik said. "I confess, I do not know him."
"Few do," she replied. "He lived with his mother until two years past, when young Domeric died and
left Bolton without an heir. That was when he brought his bastard to the Dreadfort.

He's gathering men.

He has lived with his mother until two years ago, so no maester training for him until two years ago, unlike Theon turncloak, ward of Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of The North.

 

 

Quote

Like free northman reborn said there is a differens between theon making an guess at how many men he see's in a battle, and a statement by the commander of a army about how many men he brought with him. whe have no reason to doubth ramsays satement of 600 men.

Ramsay never, I say again, NEVER says he has 600 men. He says "Hey, so I promised you two hundred so you'd give me a girl, well here is not six hundred or 600 but three times the number I promised. Also do not forget Rodrik has stated to you that he has near two thousand men, well I confirm you on your guess that he had five times my number."

Numbers are always rounded, this is also the case in comparisons. Further explanation is given above.

2000/4.33 roughly equals to 200 x 2.33 with less than %1 mistake.

[Lord Varys]

Thinking a little bit about this entire enterprise, I think one should scrap that. Unless we have very good actual figures (which we usually don't have) then all those figures are just guesses and approximations with pretty much no significance.

If you are in a crowd do you actually know with how many people you are there? Do you ever try to count the people you are with at concert, a festival, or some sort of parade? How many men in Westeros can actually count or do more than a little bit of math? Does anybody really think Theon actually counted the men that came back with Roose? Why should he? He doesn't have to count them to realize that it is only a tiny fraction of the men that rode south with him and Robb.

And any commander giving figures about the size of his host is not likely to speak the truth. He will be exaggerating. Renly exaggerated the number of his camp fires as well as the size of his army. He even claimed Dorne would soon join him (which Doran Martell did not intend to do). And the idea that Ramsay - a pathological liar - would give Theon true information on the size of his army is pretty far-fetched if you ask me.

Spreading stories about the size of one's own army is itself a weapon in war, which means that most commanders and generals will exaggerate the size of their own army while downplaying the power of their enemy in a way to boost the morale of their own troops.

The numbers on armies we get in this series are not meant to be taken all that seriously. Especially not if you want a count of the properly trained and armed fighting men.

[Corvo the Crow]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Thinking a little bit about this entire enterprise, I think one should scrap that. Unless we have very good actual figures (which we usually don't have) then all those figures are just guesses and approximations with pretty much no significance.

If you are in a crowd do you actually know with how many people you are there? Do you ever try to count the people you are with at concert, a festival, or some sort of parade? How many men in Westeros can actually count or do more than a little bit of math? Does anybody really think Theon actually counted the men that came back with Roose? Why should he? He doesn't have to count them to realize that it is only a tiny fraction of the men that rode south with him and Robb.

And any commander giving figures about the size of his host is not likely to speak the truth. He will be exaggerating. Renly exaggerated the number of his camp fires as well as the size of his army. He even claimed Dorne would soon join him (which Doran Martell did not intend to do). And the idea that Ramsay - a pathological liar - would give Theon true information on the size of his army is pretty far-fetched if you ask me.

Spreading stories about the size of one's own army is itself a weapon in war, which means that most commanders and generals will exaggerate the size of their own army while downplaying the power of their enemy in a way to boost the morale of their own troops.

The numbers on armies we get in this series are not meant to be taken all that seriously. Especially not if you want a count of the properly trained and armed fighting men.

 

Actually I believe Renlywas only half lying; He doesn't have a hundred thousand foot waiting for him in addition to his twenty thousand or so horse but he also doesn't have the entire Stormlands supporting him as Stannis confirms in ACOK prologue and he doesn't have the support of the entire Reach either; he doesn't have Redwynes with him as Cersei confirms, however weak their land strength may be and he hasn't gathered his entire strength  either, he gathers his armyon the move, on his stops and feasts at every crossroads and castle.

He's bluffing on his claim about 120k but it is entirely possible that he could have achieved this number had all the Storm Lords joined him and he finished his march.

Dorne is also gathering their strength as seen later on so he's also bluffing on them gathering to join him too. Or maybe he genuinely believed Dorne would join him for this reason or that, he wouldn't have expected them to act against him, even during bitter bridge he had eighty thousand or so men with another ten thousand with Mace Tyrell if he was telling Catelyn the truth.

[direpupy]

On 11-5-2017 at 0:42 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Theon may or may not have accurately judged their numbers because of the battle but Ramsay had time to do before battle, while he was approaching to Rodrik's camp. Also Theon has a chance to assess their numbers after things calmed down; he knows Rodrik has near two thousand and after the battle he has the oppurtunity to take a good look at Ramsay's numbers, which only took 20-30 casualties. Theon doesn't know the casualty number yet but he can see all the remaining men and can makes his guess of "five-to-one" after this, which Ramsay confirms I remind you again.

Ramsay never, I say again, NEVER says he has 600 men. He says "Hey, so I promised you two hundred so you'd give me a girl, well here is not six hundred or 600 but three times the number I promised. Also do not forget Rodrik has stated to you that he has near two thousand men, well I confirm you on your guess that he had five times my number."

Theon says "he had you five to one" but nowhere in the quote you gave does ramsay confirm this. he only confirms he was outnumbered but that they won because rodrik thought them friends.

he does say i promised 200 well here is thrice that many. 3x200=600.

and off course it is not likely that it is exactly 600 might be a little more or a little less but 600 is the baseline.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

 

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

Theon says "he had you five to one" but nowhere in the quote you gave does ramsay confirm this. he only confirms he was outnumbered but that they won because rodrik thought them friends.

he does say i promised 200 well here is thrice that many. 3x200=600.

and off course it is not likely that it is exactly 600 might be a little more or a little less but 600 is the baseline.

 

 

He confirms he was outnumbered five-to-one. Nowhere in the quote I gave does Ramsay confirms he is simply outnumbered nor does Theon say he is just outnumbered. Theon gaves a specific number and Ramsay confirms it. He doesn't say I was outnumbered or anything else to that effect that'd lead the ratio of outnumbering to vagueness, he simply confirms Theon's number.

 

Also I will post this again, read the quote below.

 

On Invalid Date at 1:42 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Quote

"Twelve thousand foot scattered around the castle in three seperate camps... two or three thousand horse. The kingslayer has us three to one," said Galbart Glover. "True enough, Ser Brynden Said..."

"Their force was greater than it had been when they left the Twins. Jason Mallister had brought his power out... others had crept forth as well, hedge knights, small lords, masterless man at arms who had fled north...

"This is about keeping my son alive and whole"... if it comes to that will thirty be enough? will six thousand be enough?"

 

 

Is Twelve thousand foot and two thousand horses are three times of six thousand? No? What if I add another thousand horse to it? Still no?

(12 + 2)/6 = ~2,33 ; not 3?    (12 + 2 + 1)/6 = 2,5 ; still not 3? So why Galbart says Kingslayer has them three to one? Do they not have maesters up there in the woodlans of the frozen wastelands that is called "Da Norf" ? Is he an uneducated savage thinking 14 or 15 is 3 times of 6? What of Brynden? Son, brother and uncle to three generations of Greatlords, of Riverrun, uncle to wives of two Greatlords of two regions,  Knight of the Bloody Gate for many years and yet he also thinks 14 or 15 is 3 times of 6, confirming the filthy northern savage. Maybe a second son doesn't get maester tutelage? Well Bran did but maybe The Ned, the big softy of the North felt her second son should also get maester trained, who knows?

Certainly Ramsay, who is the bastard son of a northern lord and lived his entire life until  just two years or so before this battle and was kept a secret so had no access to a maester all that time would be much better at "sums", than a woodland savage who is the lord of a major house, right? Also he'd be much better than some second son of a great house. He says 3 times the 200 then it'd be exactly 600. Evil Genius that one.

Well I don't have Ramsays head for maths but let's have a try

2000/5 = 400? No can't be, Ramsay had 600! He says so himself while not saying so.

What if 600 x 5 = 3000? Could be? Well Rodrik says he has near 2000 so he doesn't even have that much but who is he to know better than Ramsayboy?

This would be a heretical thought, true, may old gods and the new forgive me but what if Galbart Glover and Brynden Tully know something? I mean, they aren't Jon Snow so they aren't entitled to know nothing... I hope.

So if 2,5 or even 2,33 can be considered 3 when comparing numbers...

200 x 2, 5 = 500 ; 2000/4,5 = ~445 Well these guys suck! They are like Jon Snow after all...

I'll have a try at 2,33 too just to further prove how ignorant stupid nobles they are;

200 x 2,33 = 466 ;  2000/4,33 = ~462   See I told you they suck! Numbers don't add up, there is a difference of ~4 men! Less than %1 but still it doesn't add up! Lord Ramsay, bastard of the mill on weeping water, I wish everyone could learn as much sum as you did in 2 years!

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

Theon says "he had you five to one" but nowhere in the quote you gave does ramsay confirm this. he only confirms he was outnumbered but that they won because rodrik thought them friends.

 

 

Where is it said that is the reason they won? 

The impression I got was Ramsay won because Rodrik's host was young and largely untrained and scattered at being attacked. 

[Lord Wraith]

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where is it said that is the reason they won? 

The impression I got was Ramsay won because Rodrik's host was young and largely untrained and scattered at being attacked. 

Probably a combination of both.

[Free Northman Reborn]

On 29/07/2016 at 9:49 AM, direpupy said:

 

Clearing quote

[Free Northman Reborn]

A lot of unfounded statements above. The reason for the victory is given by Theon as appearing to be that the Dreadfort men were better led. And by Ramsay as being that they thought them friends and therefore were caught with their pants down.

Rodrik's force did not consist of untrained boys only. They had knights from White Harbor and experienced warriors from other regions. Note that this is the force that has just returned from defeating Dagmer Cleft jaw at Torhenn square and at another point in the series it is stated that Dagmer's infantry could not stand against the cavalry charges of the Northmen.

So the main disadvantage Rodrik faced, in my view, was that his knights were dismounted and not in formation, while Ramsay's cavalry was able to charge, wheel and charge at them repeatedly to carve them to pieces.

[Lord Varys]

On 11.5.2017 at 1:05 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

Actually I believe Renlywas only half lying; He doesn't have a hundred thousand foot waiting for him in addition to his twenty thousand or so horse but he also doesn't have the entire Stormlands supporting him as Stannis confirms in ACOK prologue and he doesn't have the support of the entire Reach either; he doesn't have Redwynes with him as Cersei confirms, however weak their land strength may be and he hasn't gathered his entire strength  either, he gathers his armyon the move, on his stops and feasts at every crossroads and castle.

He's bluffing on his claim about 120k but it is entirely possible that he could have achieved this number had all the Storm Lords joined him and he finished his march.

Dorne is also gathering their strength as seen later on so he's also bluffing on them gathering to join him too. Or maybe he genuinely believed Dorne would join him for this reason or that, he wouldn't have expected them to act against him, even during bitter bridge he had eighty thousand or so men with another ten thousand with Mace Tyrell if he was telling Catelyn the truth.

The point I was making there is that we have no reason to buy Renly's exact claim. He is pointing out the number of his camp fires, and there is certainly reason enough that people trained at this can make pretty good guesses how many people are likely to sit (on average) at such a fire.

But in Renly's case there is a pretty good guess that only a fraction of the people following him where actually fighting men. Renly was effectively on a royal progress through the Reach, entertaining the crowds. This wasn't exactly the march of a well-trained and determined army. There were a lot of actual fighters among Renly's men, and many of the lords who declared for him and joined him brought their men-at-arms and levies with him but that doesn't mean that they were the majority. A lot of people are living in the Reach, and many of those people would be willing to see the king if he was making camp in the vicinity to make a tourney or feat there. But not all of them would actually join him.

In addition, there are all the entertainment people. Renly's progress would not only have camp followers etc. of the normal sort but actually even more refined ones like mummers, actors, singers, etc. That also reduces the number of his fighting men, etc.

But the general point is - most numbers given in the books simply won't be accurate and are no likely given to the reader to consider them accurate.

Numbers usually are also not all that relevant when a battle is decided. George uses other factors like surprise, terrain, determination of the men fighting, etc. for that, not simple math.