Military strengths of the Houses of Westeros

[Free Northman Reborn]

20 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

It's a plot point of the first book that Robb has to move away from Moat Cailin before he used up all locally available food. Straight in the text, he got to move into the fertile Riverlands - or go home.

And that puts an end to the idea that Torhenn Stark took his time, gathering every possible sword in the North, until he felt there was no one left remaining, and then marched to engage Aegon when he felt he had an overwhelmingly strong force.

 In reality, by the time he had 12000 guys gathered at Winterfell they were likely eating the countryside bare, as in Robb's case, and it was only with great difficulty that he could wait much longer. And when this 30,000 strong host came together at Moat Cailin, it was either a case of march down the Neck immediately to engage Aegon, or see his whole host bleed away as the food ran out. Which is why he chose to do the former, as tactically naive as it may have seemed.

Armies manning Moat Cailin only needed to number a few thousand to keep at bay even the largest of southron hosts. That number can be fed from White Harbor and Barrowton. But against Dragons, that strategy had to be abandoned. So Torhenn's only hope was to march South while he still had most of his host with him and strike a decisive victory. With each day of waiting his host would have shrunk further.

Hence he marched.

[Lord Giggles]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Armies manning Moat Cailin only needed to number a few thousand to keep at bay even the largest of southron hosts. That number can be fed from White Harbor and Barrowton. But against Dragons, that strategy had to be abandoned. So Torhenn's only hope was to march South while he still had most of his host with him and strike a decisive victory. With each day of waiting his host would have shrunk further.

Hence he marched.

For just how quickly his army would have shrunk, just look at Edward I's 1298 campaign in Scotland. When his men began running out of food in Scotland, his infantry shrank from 12,000 to just 2000 in the space of a month or so. 

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

4 hours ago, Ser Arthur Hightower said:

You would think so, but they don't appear to.

• We are told that the number of people with Tywin is around 20,000.
• We know he has ~7,500 cavalry, 2,500 infantry in the reserve and a seemingly huge number of infantry in the centre.
• Not to mention every time Tywin's army is talked about people refer to it as having 20,000 soldiers
• This leaves almost no room for the 7,500+ squires that would be needed to maintain so many men-at-arms, nor the serving men, carriage drivers, Maesters, camp followers, craftsmen and engineers, groom and so on that would be needed.

I have difficulty seeing how Tywin's 20,000 soldiers could amount to a host of less than 30,000 total people. This would also include ~8,000 warhorses, ~8,000 transport horses for the cavalrymen (at least), a few thousand pack animals, and likely thousands more for mounted infantry. So 30,000+ men and 20,000+ horses for the army we see on the Green Fork.

(It would actually be quite interesting if Tywin was keeping this army supplied via boats on the Red Fork, as this would add another strategic layer to Robb lifting the siege of Riverrun.)

Remember Renly's 20,000 lances needs at a minimum 20,000 squires, so the 20,000 men he "rushed" to Storm's End with would actually be 45,000+ men. That is unless we are misled and the cavalry numbers are actually a split between squires and knights/men-at-arms, but since squires is Westeros are universally very young, that means Renly really only had 10,000 cavalry, so was only slightly better off than Tywin.

I can't be bothered to find the quote, but a few pages back I said "Martin isn't interested in this sort of thing" and you agreed with me, but I think you misunderstood what I meant. Martin does enjoy much of the worldbuilding; Houses, histories, civilisations, et cetera, what he doesn't like is the logistical/numerical side to worldbuilding. This shows up a lot, and it's a shame since I don't think very much fantasy tries hard to make this stuff work.

These examples alone make it clear that a lot of things haven't been properly thought out here.

Yes, I agree. GRRM probably just doesn't list them. He certainly seems aware that they exist though, considering his various "washerwomen" characters and so on. 

Yeah, that is probably a more accurate description of his interests. Also when he started writing these books it wouldn't really have been possible to find information about these kinds of things on the internet, so it would have required much more effort for him back then than for us now to get them right. Hence it might be understandable why he never really bothered, and instead left the numerical and logistical sides of things vague. 

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

43 minutes ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Yes, I agree. GRRM probably just doesn't list them. He certainly seems aware that they exist though, considering his various "washerwomen" characters and so on. 

Yeah, that is probably a more accurate description of his interests. Also when he started writing these books it wouldn't really have been possible to find information about these kinds of things on the internet, so it would have required much more effort for him back then than for us now to get them right. Hence it might be understandable why he never really bothered, and instead left the numerical and logistical sides of things vague. 

Another important point that is often overlooked that I have brought up before, it is difficult to fathom how much more information we have now compared to people 20 years ago, as someone who can't even remember a time before wikipedia it seems almost crazy.

Whilst not related to the logistical side of things, another issue to which this applies is the combat itself; HEMA (historical European Martial arts) was an often overlooked field a few decades ago with all the information essentially crammed into a few very long, fairly rare, and not particularly entertaining books. Thanks largely to the internet interest has flared up and now all the information is online and regularly being discussed and analysed.

[Tarellen]

On June 3, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

More populated it definitely isn't, since Doran says in AFFC that Dorne is the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms. Density wise it might be a little bit more so though. A lot of it is desert, yes, but the parts that aren't should be among the most productive farmland you can find. It is no coincidence that in our history the earliest cities and civilizations arose around large rivers in very hot regions of the world. That is where population densities first became high enough to enable more complex forms of governance and economics. 

The Nile the greenblood is not for if it was dorne would be a bread basket. Also if it's so fertile how come most people avoided dorne when settling westeros?

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

1 hour ago, Ser Arthur Hightower said:

Another important point that is often overlooked that I have brought up before, it is difficult to fathom how much more information we have now compared to people 20 years ago, as someone who can't even remember a time before wikipedia it seems almost crazy.

Whilst not related to the logistical side of things, another issue to which this applies is the combat itself; HEMA (historical European Martial arts) was an often overlooked field a few decades ago with all the information essentially crammed into a few very long, fairly rare, and not particularly entertaining books. Thanks largely to the internet interest has flared up and now all the information is online and regularly being discussed and analysed.

Yeah, the conditions for doing more realistic fantasy and historical fiction stories are certainly much better today due to how much more accessible knowledge has become with spread of the internet. 

I think the game "the Witcher 3" which came out last year might have been a good example of this giving results. Everything from the clothes and armor to how villages, cities and the landscape looks is just on a completely different level in that game compared to most older fantasy, I think. The general society feels a good deal more authentically medieval as well, although it is still a high fantasy setting with a good deal of humor mixed in. I would really recommend it to anyone liking ASOIAF and role playing games. 

29 minutes ago, Tarellen said:

The Nile the greenblood is not for if it was dorne would be a bread basket. Also if it's so fertile how come most people avoided dorne when settling westeros?

Yeah, the Greenblood is probably not nearly as good as the Nile but it should at least be something. Dorne does export a lot of fruits, wines and other agricultural produce, so it is not a barren wasteland. 

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Just now, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

I think the game "the Witcher 3" which came out last year might have been a good example of this giving results. Everything from the clothes and armor to how villages, cities and the landscape looks is just on a completely different level in that game compared to most older fantasy, I think. The general society feels a good deal more authentically medieval as well, although it is still a high fantasy setting with a good deal of humor mixed in. I would really recommend it to anyone liking ASOIAF and role playing games. 

 

Damn, I really need to finish that game. Such a great setting and gameplay. And yes, by video game standards the armours, weapons and even most of the fighting animations are fairly realistic (though I actually wish the armour was a bit less realistic, as I don't like the aesthetics of most of the non-Witcher gear.

I think the individual villages and such are very well portrayed, as in the map is not unlike the layout of a real medieval kingdom, though IRL the villages would be somewhat larger, as would the distances between them.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

14 minutes ago, Ser Arthur Hightower said:

Damn, I really need to finish that game. Such a great setting and gameplay. And yes, by video game standards the armours, weapons and even most of the fighting animations are fairly realistic (though I actually wish the armour was a bit less realistic, as I don't like the aesthetics of most of the non-Witcher gear.

I think the individual villages and such are very well portrayed, as in the map is not unlike the layout of a real medieval kingdom, though IRL the villages would be somewhat larger, as would the distances between them.

Yeah, you should. The two expansions that have come out are really top notch as well. Maybe even a little better than the main storyline. 

Mm the world has of course been compressed quite a bit for gameplay reasons. Even as it is now it would be insufferable without the fast travel option, so I really see why they didn't make the distances even larger. Novigrad still feels like a huge city that is pretty hard to find its way around without a map even though it should probably be around ten times as big according to the lore, for example. 

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Yeah, the Greenblood is probably not nearly as good as the Nile but it should at least be something. Dorne does export a lot of fruits, wines and other agricultural produce, so it is not a barren wasteland. 

For what's worth, the easter section of Dorne on the TWoIaF map is pretty green and seems to be reasonably fertile.

In general though, I'm not really sure how important such debates are. Battles and wars are seldom decided by the superior numbers, and George already showed us that with Robb winning his victories and Renly failing despite his superior numbers.

In that sense I'm not sure why the strength of the various regions matters so much. George isn't going to base his stories on accurate numbers. In fact, he may not have thought about them all that much back in AGoT when the worldbuilding stuff wasn't yet such a priority, and neither might the people talking about all that experts on this kind of thing.

Doran Martell making statements about Dorne's population in comparison to the other kingdoms sounds fine at first glance but what firsthand knowledge does the guy actually have with the strength of the North or the Vale? We don't even know if he ever was there.

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Hence he marched.

It was still a stupid decision. Fighting the enemy on his own soil could have helped him play the Dornish card. The North is vast and essentially the Westerosi equivalent of Russia. The dragons might have taken Moat Cailin but he could have harried the Targaryen army while it crossed the Neck and subsequently afterwards left them only burned soil and poisoned wells for hundreds of leagues while moving the bulk of the population farther up north (just as the Russians did when dealing with Napoleon and Hitler). That way Torrhen could have had a chance to reconquer what he had lost instead of essentially being forced to bend the knee.

I don't think he could have won in the end because the dragons destroying Winterfell and other big castles shortly before the next winter would have dealt the Northmen a blow from which they wouldn't have been able to recover.

But marching into the dragon's jaw was just silly.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

56 minutes ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Yeah, you should. The two expansions that have come out are really top notch as well. Maybe even a little better than the main storyline. 

Mm the world has of course been compressed quite a bit for gameplay reasons. Even as it is now it would be insufferable without the fast travel option, so I really see why they didn't make the distances even larger. Novigrad still feels like a huge city that is pretty hard to find its way around without a map even though it should probably be around ten times as big according to the lore, for example. 

Good to hear a recommendation for the DLC, most reviews I've heard so far have been fairly mediocre, but I'll certainly consider buying them if I get back into the game over the summer.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

For what's worth, the easter section of Dorne on the TWoIaF map is pretty green and seems to be reasonably fertile.

In general though, I'm not really sure how important such debates are. Battles and wars are seldom decided by the superior numbers, and George already showed us that with Robb winning his victories and Renly failing despite his superior numbers.

In that sense I'm not sure why the strength of the various regions matters so much. George isn't going to base his stories on accurate numbers. In fact, he may not have thought about them all that much back in AGoT when the worldbuilding stuff wasn't yet such a priority, and neither might the people talking about all that experts on this kind of thing.

Doran Martell making statements about Dorne's population in comparison to the other kingdoms sounds fine at first glance but what firsthand knowledge does the guy actually have with the strength of the North or the Vale? We don't even know if he ever was there.

Those things are all probably true. For me it is more about personal interest in these sorts of topics rather than them actually ending up mattering much in the series. 

33 minutes ago, Ser Arthur Hightower said:

Good to hear a recommendation for the DLC, most reviews I've heard so far have been fairly mediocre, but I'll certainly consider buying them if I get back into the game over the summer.

Really? The ones I've read praised them. Either way, they are definitely worth getting as long as you liked the main game. 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Those things are all probably true. For me it is more about personal interest in these sorts of topics rather than them actually ending up mattering much in the series.

Me too, but trying to figure how the North could have more troops than it seems to have isn't really going to influence the story line.

They don't have to have many troops to win battles or even wars if George decides to do that.

I don't think that's very likely due to the whole realism angle but I also know that numbers don't matter all that much in war if the circumstances are correct. I cited the Armada incident for years in regards to the Ironborn-Redwyne battle but many people didn't want to hear that.

[Tarellen]

2 hours ago, Khaleesi did nothing wrong said:

Yeah, the conditions for doing more realistic fantasy and historical fiction stories are certainly much better today due to how much more accessible knowledge has become with spread of the internet. 

I think the game "the Witcher 3" which came out last year might have been a good example of this giving results. Everything from the clothes and armor to how villages, cities and the landscape looks is just on a completely different level in that game compared to most older fantasy, I think. The general society feels a good deal more authentically medieval as well, although it is still a high fantasy setting with a good deal of humor mixed in. I would really recommend it to anyone liking ASOIAF and role playing games. 

Yeah, the Greenblood is probably not nearly as good as the Nile but it should at least be something. Dorne does export a lot of fruits, wines and other agricultural produce, so it is not a barren wasteland. 

True there's exotic fruits in dorne. But that seems to be about it in terms of Dornes economy 

[direpupy]

18 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

With great difficulty. Not all breeds can survive in wilderness, not even a majority. Please remember that the animal we call a horse now is not naturally evolved but entirely shaped by man. The original wild horses were dog-sized.

 

Actually they where about the same size as a zebra, but you are correct in that a cavalry horse that has to bear the weight of man in armour probably can not survive in the wild.

[Alexander Targaryen]

As it has now been 20 days since the last post, and the Season 6 finale just premiered (and what a great episode it was), I would like to ask anyone with information, calculations or estimations regarding the strength of other Houses to share them with me and the rest of the community. Once again I will repeat that these numbers are not written in stone and that the strength and manpower of any House can vary greatly under certain circumstances.

[Alexander Targaryen]

Jon Snow estimates that the seven known Northern Mountain Clans can raise 3,000 fighting men combined. The Flints, Wulls, Norreys and Liddles contributed 2,500 men to the March on Winterfell, leaving 500 for the other 3 mountain clans. If we assume that their strengths are roughly equal, and that the common foot-horse ratio of the North (4-1) applies to them, we get the following numbers:

House Burley: 167 men (133 foot, 34 horse)

House Flint of the Mountains: 625 men (500 foot, 125 horse)

House Harclay: 167 men (134 foot, 33 horse)

House Knott: 166 men (133 foot, 33 horse)

House Liddle: 625 men (500 foot, 125 horse)

House Norrey: 625 men (500 foot, 125 horse)

House Wull: 625 men (500 foot, 125 horse)

 

However, this is after the Red Wedding, and their peak strengths are likely twice these numbers.

[Free Northman Reborn]

There are about 40 Mountain Clans in total, if I recall correctly.

[Shireen Purratheon]

Isn't it said that the mountain clans don't have warhorses? Or they use their cold weather snow horses to move around and then dismount for battle? Plus, only the most important chieftains and champions even get actual steel. So I'd guess they don't have the average 1:4 cavalry ratio, and I'd be sort of surprised if each family could provide for more than a couple of heavy lancers each.

We're told Clan Wull is the most powerful, so it follows that they have more of a force than the other more powerful groups.

[GallowsKnight]

I agree that the Mountain Clans probably don't line up with the rest of the Northern soldiers. The Clan leaders, sons and champions will have mail byrnies and greatsword of steel. But the rest have sling or ash-staffs, wearing furs or at best studded leather.

Where most of the northern foot would have some mail armour. We see this in a few descriptions. They might however have more horses per man, needing them to get around in the mountains. But these aren't war horses, they wouldn't be useful for charging just for mobility.

You don't really want to take this guys south of the moat except as scouts and scavengers. Despite their bluster, these guys would have a big disadvantage against cavalry, archers, pikes etc. But they are who you want to fight Ironborn, Wildlings or Skagosi in the North.

[Corvo the Crow]

I currently do not have time to read all of the 10 pages, so I'm sorry if some of these information has been given before.

I will give information and numbers, all of them taken from ASOIAF boks,  to correct the wrong ones listed at first post and add some new ones to it. I will give as much detail as possible. I will also make some assumptions after that, based on these. I won't be able to give the exact chapter and page from where i got these for most of them but i am able to give enough information( where, when and who of its mention) so you can find it for confirmation. I may add chapters for all of them if i have enough time.

House Bolton:

Information

Spoiler

1- Roose Bolton and Robett Glover ask for battle command. ( AGOT Bran VI)

2- Houses Stark, Karstark and Umber each occupy a tower when Robb is at Moat Cailin.

3- House Bolton and House Manderly have skirmishes over Hornwood lands. (I believe it was from a Bran chapter, the one in which Reed siblings came to swear fealty)

4- Ramsay asks for gold to bring Theon 100-200 men. He  defeats Ser Rodrik's army of near 2000. Theon says Rodrik had five times his numbers and Ramsay says he brought three times as many men as promised. (From two consecutive Theon chapters if i'm not mistaken. Second one is the one where siege is lifted).

5- Roose tells Jaime a thousand Karstark men are on the search for him. (Jaime V)

6- Roose sends Steelshanks Walton with 200 men to deliver Jaime to KL. On the same day he leaves Harrenhal for Edmure's wedding. (ASOS, Jaine VI). Two thirds of his army cross the trident, remaining third is lost when mountain attacks. He leaves 600 men to guard the crossing and marches on to twins with 3000 infantry and some 500 cavalry, Dreadfort men in chief and some from Karhold. (ASOS, Catelyn VI). As a side note, Robb Also has 3500 men with him, men who were with him since the whispering wood, on his march to twins.

7- Karlon Hold was built on land taken from a rebel lord. Boltons were powerful enough to remain kings for quite a long time, bending the knee only a thousand years or so ago and have rebelled against Starks hundreds of years ago and lost. (ADWD Jon IV, TWOIAF North, ACOK Theon IV, ASOS Catelyn III)

Assumptions

Spoiler

1- Someone asking for a military command should be indicative of one of these two: either he has previously proven himself as a capable commander or has brought a significant number of men and expects to be honored for his contribution.

2- Houses Umber and Karstark are both given a tower in Moat Cailin and not other houses, Greatjon is Robb's right hand so is a reason to honor him by giving a tower to him but there's no apparent reason for giving the Karstarks a tower. Yes they are "kin" but it's very distant and  most if not all the houses are related someway or the other because of marrying among themselves so they are mostly a bannermen like any. So, probably they are given the tower either because they brought most men or when they arrived at moat cailin they were the house with most men ( i.e.- other houses with more men showed up at MC but after Karstarks - which is unlikely.

3- Roose kept his men away from battle as much as possible, always sending others to die so his army is mostly is mostly intact.

4- In the series, when numbers are given they are almost always rounded up (or rounded down though this is less often) and not exact, even for as few as 20-30 men as can be seen in Catelyn chapter where Manderlys are marching to Join Robb. So Ramsay having brought three times the number promised or having a fifth of Ser Rodrik's men, is also rounded which places his numbers somewhere between ~2000/5 = 400 and 200 x 3 = 600. A thousand Karstarks searching for Jaime is also rounded, there can be "less" (I dare you, Stannis) or more. And  Roose's 3000 infantry is most likely rounded up.

4- Land Karlon Stark got was most likely belonged to the Boltons as it was taken from a rebelling lord, there are no other great houses known past the Dreadfort and Karlon built a castle of his own so most likely there weren't any before the lands were taken either, so, Karlon, a Stark was given land and as a consequence men, strengthening house Stark and Boltons lost power by this loss of men and land. Karlon must at least have a number of men close to the former owner of his newly gotten land so as to be able to useful against another rebellion from the same lord or defend his lands against him if the need arises, so the lands are probably divided more or less equally, poulation wise.

Conclusion

Spoiler

Boltons have a number of men close to the Karstarks, which have more than ~2750  but most likely fewer than 3000; ~2300 that went south, 450 under Cregan and some men during the siege of winterfell, noticably fewer in numbers compared to Cerwyns(300) and probably  most didn't survive the battle with Ramsay or at least haven't returned to Karhold, Karstarks probably have 2800-2900 men Roose went south with 2000 men or maybe a hundred or so more, a bit smaller than Karstarks numbers but almost as many and Ramsay had 500 men attacking Rodrik, father and son's armies totalling 2500-2600 let's be generous and add in another hundred for men lost to skirmishes in Hornwood and a very small garrison when Ramsay goes to "aid" Theon. So final total is 2600-2700 for Boltons and 2800-2900 for Karstarks.

That's it for Boltons and though it was not my intention, Karstarks are also cleared up.

Freys:

This will be very much shorter than Boltons:

 

Spoiler

Information:

1- Walder Frey has gathered his levies in Twins, he has near 4000 men, 1000 of it cavalry. (Vatelyn chapter When Robb is near twins). There are also very small numbers of Frey men throughout Walder's lands, not engaging Lannisters unless they are provoked (again a Catelyn chapter, maybe the same? Or maybe this one was a Tyrion, not sure.)

2- Robb leaves a garrison of 800 men in Twins, 400 of his own Northmen under Helman Tallhart and he leaves another 400 from Walder Frey's gathered ~4000, not new men.

3- Both Jaime and Roose have 2000 or so Freys with them in Riverrun and Winterfell. Also Jason Mallister and his heir, Patrek are held hostage by Freys in Seagard.

Assumptions and conclusion:

Seeing how they have ~4000 men or so in total, half with Jaime and the other half with Roose and they also hold Mallisters hostage so in total they must have a little bit more than 4000, i'd say they can raise 4100-4200 at most. Also as a side note, they came out of WOT5K with their forces intact just like Roose, their ally through marriage, which would mean Roose kept both the Freys and Boltons mostly away from battles since the Greenfork, which strikes me as odd.

 

Next will be Lannisters most likely. I'll edit them in once I'm convenient again.