Jump to content

Have they lost it?


Lerxst

Recommended Posts

I binge watched Seasons 1-4, catching up with the series as 4 ended. Then I waited for 5, where I binged again on the first 4 seasons and now 6. The show just seems to have gotten too.... hrmmm... "soap opera-y". Just "happy coincidences" all over the place; people related to one another, people who know or have heard of the other, or have met in the past, etc. And then the deaths of damn near everyone at some point just adds to this feel,

The first thing I noticed about season 6, though, is the lack of GRRM's writing influence. I'm completely confident he lacks any ability to write a gratifying climactic scene to any plot line he's created. In Season 6, we're subjected to 2 in a row right at the start. That feels totally out of place for his usual epic tales of anti-climactic tragedy. It wouldn't surprise me if season 6 started to wrap things up and season 7 put a nice ribbon around them.

I don't actually know how I feel about this though. Part of me thinks "Yes! Something's finally happening!!". Part of me feels betrayed because it's not happening the way the other 5 seasons did.

Then we have the plot lines that are actually left...

Mereen seems to be a void that sucks characters in and lets them waste away in limbo until they escape. Now we have one of the most entertaining character in the show, Tyrion, stuck there, falling victim to the same neglect Daenerys did.

King's Landing... I'm over it. Really, these characters don't change or develop any bit since season 2 and don't seem to have any affect on anyone else's story line. For instance, we find out that apparently Daenerys is a popular name in the world, as are her dragons, but no one in King's Landing seems to give a rat's ass about that - it's like the city is tuck in its own little bubble and could be swallowed up into the earth next episode but still have no effect on the rest of the story.

Littlefinger - Give me a break. At first I thought i hated him because he was sinister and sneaky. Now I realize I hate him because he... just isn't written very well. He's conniving for the sake of being conniving. It seems that half of the back-stabbing plots he launches can be accomplished by doing it directly himself. There's no rhyme or reason as to why he does what he does, other than for the sake of being a sneaky bastard.

Sansa, I thought she was the weakest character from season 1 and am disgusted that I've had to endure 6 seasons with her. I'd rather watch 6 seasons of Sandor Clegane and follow a character that actually has depth and isn't a stereotype like Sansa.

Jon Snow... One of the few plots I like. Unfortunately, now Sansa is involved with it *yuk*.

Arya - one of the other few plots that are interesting and I wish they'd focus on more. Although I'm not sure what the point of her blindness was supposed to be.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If anything I think this season is better than season 5. The first two episodes were very off this season but the recent 3 have been up to scratch I felt. The *ahem* spoiling resurrection scene was very underwhelming.
 

But nevertheless season 5 was very very slow and tiresome. Literally I can only remember events from the final 2 episodes, other than Sansa with Ramsey.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Game of Thrones has always been "soap opera-y"... sort of like EastEnders with higher production value. Why do you think a fantasy TV show became so popular?

Even if the show was completely faithful to the books, it's hard to imagine it not coming across like a soap opera. GRRM himself has admitted on more than one occasion that the fantasy setting is just furniture to him and that he's mostly interested in writing about human conflict and drama.

As for whether the show has lost it, the show writers have seldom demonstrated any real talent. They seem to delve further into the realm of fanfiction and away from the source material with every season, which is why season 1 arguably remains the strongest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lerxst said:

I binge watched Seasons 1-4, catching up with the series as 4 ended. Then I waited for 5, where I binged again on the first 4 seasons and now 6. The show just seems to have gotten too.... hrmmm... "soap opera-y". Just "happy coincidences" all over the place; people related to one another, people who know or have heard of the other, or have met in the past, etc. And then the deaths of damn near everyone at some point just adds to this feel,

Are you a book reader? (Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you sound like one)

Because I have a theory... You see, I don't think they show has changed much. It has always had soap opera elements. (as does the source material).

BUT... For the first four seasons, us book readers knew the story and could 'mentally fan-fic' in missing details from the book. But now that we don't know the book version, we can't... And for some people that causes them to suddenly see the show as far inferior to what came before. Just a theory...

EDIT: As for the lack of GRRM's writing influence, that is exaggerated. He only wrote ONE episode each seasons for the first four seasons. The rest was all by different writers, doing various levels of adaption and new scenes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Titan said:

Because I have a theory... You see, I don't think they show has changed much. It has always had soap opera elements. (as does the source material).

Why I do this to myself I don't know ....

 

 

Go watch the first season.  Tell me it's the same as this drivel.  It was more than just SHOCK for the sake of SHOCK.

There was plot, the characters made choices that made sense.  And then influenced other choices.  Which in turn, (you may guess where this is going) influenced other choices and in the end had consequences.  

Now all we get is endless dick jokes.  Euron 2 eyes.  Bloodraven-not-Bloodraven.  Women empowered by rape.  And a teleporting LF.

29 minutes ago, Titan said:

EDIT: As for the lack of GRRM's writing influence, that is exaggerated. He only wrote ONE episode each seasons for the first four seasons. The rest was all by different writers, doing various levels of adaption and new scenes.

As the writers have gone further afield they have continued to prove they, in fact, can't write.  No plot.  No motivations.  No characterization.  They want to get to the end as quick as possible to be done with it.  So, GRRM's influence is indeed huge on quality.  

D$D wanted to film the Red Wedding; that's it.  That have cared less and less since.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It says a lot that the on;y powerful and memorable moment from this season (in a good way) came directly from GRRM according to the showrunners themselves.

Once they decided they didn't need the source material the series was doomed.  They don't have the talent.  They've written themselves into so many holes I don't see how they can salvage it.

At least their women empowered theme has prevented them from actually filming any rape scenes so far this year although it hasn't stopped them from treating it as a joke.  Four full episodes of nonstop rape threats (theoretically humorous rape threats) masquerading as a storyline for Dany.  And Missandei's Game, with "only the girls" as the punchline.

And a lot of dick jokes, none half as funny as that loooooong-ass full screen full of dick warts shot.  Holy shit that was a long-ass close up of a dick.  Just a tv screen full of dick, for no discernable reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Lerxst said:

Mereen seems to be a void that sucks characters in and lets them waste away in limbo until they escape. Now we have one of the most entertaining character in the show, Tyrion, stuck there, falling victim to the same neglect Daenerys did.

That comes straight from the books, though. At least that is a faithful adaptation. 

To your overall point, yes. I mean, sure, the show's always been soap opera-y, and there was always going to be an expected dip (or more like nosedive) in quality after Storm because Feast and Dance are simply not good. And don't get me wrong, I'm excited that this season is the first time that stuff actually happens in Westeros since 2011. I'm glad we're at least getting an ending to this thing, even if it's via the tv show. 

But it would be disingenuous from my part to say that this season and the last one are just as good as the ones before them. If one of GRRM's biggest mistakes in the novels was to focus on characters at the expense of plot to the point that action became pretty much stagnant, then I'd say D&D's biggest mistake has been the opposite: sure, the plot is advancing swifter than in the books, but they've neglected characters in the process. And yes, the dialogue, even original show dialogue, used to be better before. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

T'is all opinion, but yeh - the quality went down after the 4th season. I honestly don't know if it's because they were planing for when they run out of source material, or if they got a new writing team, but the show doesn't feel the same. Could be wrong, but I don't think it's fully due to the books, 'cause there's a lot of things that the show did better (IMO) in the first few seasons - even though those parts in the book were also fantastic. They made changes, but it worked. Then it all kind of slumped.

Granted, I don't think books 4 and 5 are as good as 1-3, but they're still better than their show-counterparts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, not a book reader (I feel you judging me!). My book reading era stop right after the Asimov years. I just noticed a certain pace and tone set for the first 4 seasons, then season 5 dragged a bit and now, in season 6 it just feels... rushed? At least some parts feel off-paced. Some feel rushed while other feel bogged down under their own weight.

Part of this whole feel is the fact that there are about 9 plot lines to cover and 10 episodes to cover them in, each 50 or so minutes. That's like watching an hour long TV show about a character, once a year. It better be a damned good hour and/or an amazing character to keep me coming back!

They need to make good use of their time and when they don't it just kind of gets amplified (Dorne... anyone?). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AFFC/AWD are poorer books but more in their pacing and structure than in the quality of the writing. A number of POV characters have some of their best chapters in those books.

As they are they were unfilmable and unfortunately in adapting them D&D made a number of mistakes. Dorne is an obvious example, but they were also too faithful to some characters storylines who had particularly dull plotlines.

However I feel we are emerging from the dip caused by adapting these books. The last two episodes have shown what can be if you mix in WOW material with the few remaining AFFC/ADWD plotlines that are necessary to the main plot.

If you get pass the fact that even the stuff that is faithful to future books is unfamiliar to you this has been a strong season so far, certainly better than season 5. If they can keep going like this I think they can do the ending of the story justice.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lerxst totally agree. I think the directors have no ideea about what is going to happened next, they only know 3 things (shereen death, hodor and probably cercei) and that's it, probably some sort of ending. I think they have argued with GRRM about the rest of the seasons and now they have nothing.

@Khorkalba "GRRM himself has admitted on more than one occasion that the fantasy setting is just furniture to him and that he's mostly interested in writing about human conflict and drama. " +

he said he don't want to make any hero and villanin conflict and now we have zombie apocalypse.

but this is only my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They didn't loose it just yet, but after S6 episode 1 I thought they were damn close.
[Even very good directors make mistake of making their lead characters "precious", as if other side-characters are watching the movie too.
However, precious corps was unseen so far. Dorne bits were bare exposition nothing more and so on.]

To their credit, it's apparent right now, they do not wish just to expand the series to no end (and milk it as much as they can).

Some mini-episodes are very good with only minor problems - fight in front of ToJ (great no issues), Tyrion's release of dragons (he never read they can burn the innocent, well let's say he idolizes them), all Arya (good and very cinematic but repetitive already).

My impression is - they have the outlines but just struggling to fill "the meat", details that are the story really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first half of S6 is better than any other season other than arguably S1. The first episode was boring, but the first episode of the season is always boring because they spend 2-3 minutes on each character just giving us an update on what they are doing.

S2, 3 and 5 all have the same season structure. First 4-5 eps set up the conflict. The next few episodes add some complications, a surprise or two, and hint at the climax. Then eps 8-10 show the conflicts explode in crazy unexpected ways. And episode 10 teases the next season. This make the back half of the seasons really good, but the front half is unbalanced and boring. They basically use a three act structure for the whole season. Most tv shows use a 2 or 3 act structure each episode. Game of Thrones cannot (or chooses not to) because there is only enough time for 1-2 scenes per story lines per episode. Characters basically have a plotline for the whole season.

Season 1 is pretty similar except the set up is more interesting because it's all new.

Season 4 is different because it was basically an adaptation of the third act of ASOS. There is a lot of conflict in the beginning of the season without taking 3-4 episode to set it all up.

Season 6 is basically doing the same thing as 4, taking up right where S5 left off. Ep 1 was clearly a set up episode, but by Ep2 stuff was going on. Conflicts had arisen and then been resolved.

Maybe S6 will shit the bed at the second half, but the first half has been great.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Cz-99 said:

Could be wrong, but I don't think it's fully due to the books, 'cause there's a lot of things that the show did better (IMO) in the first few seasons - even though those parts in the book were also fantastic. They made changes, but it worked. Then it all kind of slumped.

Granted, I don't think books 4 and 5 are as good as 1-3, but they're still better than their show-counterparts.

this! thank you. it worked indeed, subtle, sophisticated changes.

it's like a car inductry: without excellent tuning you can't have excellent product. if you however hand the general outlines to tuners, and tell them to build the car on their own, they'll do it, they know a lot about the cars, but not the same thing. they may stumble upon issues that even average startup manufacurer would never stumble upon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lerxst said:

No, not a book reader (I feel you judging me!). My book reading era stop right after the Asimov years. I just noticed a certain pace and tone set for the first 4 seasons, then season 5 dragged a bit and now, in season 6 it just feels... rushed? At least some parts feel off-paced. Some feel rushed while other feel bogged down under their own weight.

Part of this whole feel is the fact that there are about 9 plot lines to cover and 10 episodes to cover them in, each 50 or so minutes. That's like watching an hour long TV show about a character, once a year. It better be a damned good hour and/or an amazing character to keep me coming back!

They need to make good use of their time and when they don't it just kind of gets amplified (Dorne... anyone?). 

Yes, it is rushed. I think a critical mistake made early in the production was to try and stay as close to the books as possible, the result of which is the 9 different plot lines you've mentioned above. In my opinion, both Dorne and the Iron Islands should have been written out from the very beginning, and if that meant no Theon Greyjoy and no Oberyn Martell, then so be it. I've also wondered at times if they should have waited until season 2 to introduce Dany. 

10 episodes/season has been a problem from the beginning. As you mention above, there just isn't enough screen time to truly develop the characters. 

I wouldn't be surprised if, ten or fifteen years from now, someone takes another swing at adapting ASOIAF. If that happens, it'll be interesting to compare the shows and see if anything was learned from the original.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Pecan said:

Yes, it is rushed. I think a critical mistake made early in the production was to try and stay as close to the books as possible, the result of which is the 9 different plot lines you've mentioned above. In my opinion, both Dorne and the Iron Islands should have been written out from the very beginning, and if that meant no Theon Greyjoy and no Oberyn Martell, then so be it. I've also wondered at times if they should have waited until season 2 to introduce Dany. 

10 episodes/season has been a problem from the beginning. As you mention above, there just isn't enough screen time to truly develop the characters. 

I wouldn't be surprised if, ten or fifteen years from now, someone takes another swing at adapting ASOIAF. If that happens, it'll be interesting to compare the shows and see if anything was learned from the original.  

 

I agree. I don't think the show has lost it, I've enjoyed a great deal of this and last season. However there are far more elements that feel rushed and undeveloped than before. If they'd just stopped relying on the initial material from the start they might have been able to move things around rather than shoot their load right at the end. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Pecan said:

Yes, it is rushed. I think a critical mistake made early in the production was to try and stay as close to the books as possible, the result of which is the 9 different plot lines you've mentioned above. In my opinion, both Dorne and the Iron Islands should have been written out from the very beginning, and if that meant no Theon Greyjoy and no Oberyn Martell, then so be it. I've also wondered at times if they should have waited until season 2 to introduce Dany. 

10 episodes/season has been a problem from the beginning. As you mention above, there just isn't enough screen time to truly develop the characters. 

I wouldn't be surprised if, ten or fifteen years from now, someone takes another swing at adapting ASOIAF. If that happens, it'll be interesting to compare the shows and see if anything was learned from the original.  

 

Very well put - fully agree with this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I agree. I don't think the show has lost it, I've enjoyed a great deal of this and last season. However there are far more elements that feel rushed and undeveloped than before. If they'd just stopped relying on the initial material from the start they might have been able to move things around rather than shoot their load right at the end. 

 

You might be the only person on this forum that agrees with me on this. :)  Mostly what I've read on here the last few years are complaints about the changes. But, in my view, the best television dramas are strongly character driven. Breaking Bad wouldn't have worked if it wasn't fundamentally about Walter White and all the lives he destroyed. But ASOIAF is definitely a tough nut to crack, no question, and more so because the main series remains unfinished. So I do have some sympathy for D & D. (I won't forgive them for Dorne though - gosh what a mess that was!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Pecan said:

You might be the only person on this forum that agrees with me on this. :)  Mostly what I've read on here the last few years are complaints about the changes. But, in my view, the best television dramas are strongly character driven. Breaking Bad wouldn't have worked if it wasn't fundamentally about Walter White and all the lives he destroyed. But ASOIAF is definitely a tough nut to crack, no question, and more so because the main series remains unfinished. So I do have some sympathy for D & D. (I won't forgive them for Dorne though - gosh what a mess that was!)

Ha thanks! Yes I think often there is a confusion about objective criticism about the show and what is essentially anger at changing stuff from the books, which I personally don't see as a valid argument. I also have sympathy for D&D, making a TV show is never as simple as 'just make it good' , because anyone who's ever worked in a creative industry knows that the end product is so reliant on a million factors and competing stakeholders, and often you just have to do the best you can. 

Having said that, I think this season has been incredibly patchy, its had some of my absolutely favourite episodes, and also some that I've pretty much hated, I think thats something I'll have to reconcile with myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...