Have they lost it?

[Ser Gareth]

5 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

The fourth and fifth book are the beginning of Act II. Set up for the explosion in TWOW.

The conquest of Westeros isn't going to take long because there won't really be an iron throne to win. I kind of expect Aegon to be the last person to sit the iron throne in the books because ultimately who is king doesn't matter as much as the existential conflict happening in the north 

 

See, I don't think what Tyrion is doing is more interesting than what Daenerys did in ADWD. The reason is that Tyrion ultimately doesn't really care all that much a bout the welfare of the Meereenese citizens. There's no conflict there just external whereas with Daenerys she was fighting herself the same time she was fighting the Sons and the rest of the world. She had to give up things she wanted to achieve a peace. 

 

Actually Cersei did try use the Faith to give Tommen more political legitimacy. Remember that she gave more power to the Faith in exchange for forgiving their debt and crowing Tommen under the 7.

You have more faith than me!  My expectations for the end of TWOW is that the Others invasion begins fairly early on in the book.  But that means Dany has to be in Westeros by then.  So basically it isn't going to happen.  Most likely the book will end with Dany making preparations to come to Westeros.

[Greg B]

8 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

The fourth and fifth book are the beginning of Act II. Set up for the explosion in TWOW.

The conquest of Westeros isn't going to take long because there won't really be an iron throne to win. I kind of expect Aegon to be the last person to sit the iron throne in the books because ultimately who is king doesn't matter as much as the existential conflict happening in the north 

 

See, I don't think what Tyrion is doing is more interesting than what Daenerys did in ADWD. The reason is that Tyrion ultimately doesn't really care all that much a bout the welfare of the Meereenese citizens. There's no conflict there just external whereas with Daenerys she was fighting herself the same time she was fighting the Sons and the rest of the world. She had to give up things she wanted to achieve a peace. 

 

Actually Cersei did try use the Faith to give Tommen more political legitimacy. Remember that she gave more power to the Faith in exchange for forgiving their debt and crowing Tommen under the 7.

So two thousand words for "the beginning of Act II." Yeah, that's a problem. But what's worse is what you call the "setup." Daenerys goes nowhere. At the end of ASOS, she's a conqueror. For whatever reason, she ignores her advisors and decides she's not ready to be a queen. She decides to learn how to be a queen by...trying to be the queen of a foreign state. Okay, the illogic gives one a headache, but whatever. At the end of ADWD, she decides she can never be queen of Meereen; she's a conqueror. That's her big epiphany. That's her story arc. It's so bad it's kinda funny.

That's fine if you enjoy Daenerys's internal conflict. If it moved the story forward, I still wouldn't enjoy it much (not Martin's strength, IMO), but it'd be fine. It doesn't move the story forward one inch. It ends with, "Ah, fuck it. I am what I am. Fire and Blood!" Either way, I'm enjoying Tyrion's maneuvers much more, but it's cool that we disagree.

Re: Cersei, I did say it had "little to do with political legitimacy." She does need to get Tommen crowned, that's absolutely true.

[lancerman]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always had the expectation that after the last two books, the pace for Winds would need to be lightning fast for any chance of finishing in two books. 

So this is pretty on par with what I thought. 

[Lerxst]

On 5/27/2016 at 10:28 AM, Ser_Gerassime said:

I might have just registered in this forum to comment here.. so tight your seatbelts

I agree with most of the original OP, last 2 seasons have been remarkably lesser quality in writing.. in a show that is very dependent on intelligent and logical plot development this is very noticeable (it is still a very good show, if only because the actors also created great characters IMHO).

I don't mind the streamlining of stuff, or the re-writing of characters and arcs that much, as long as is done intelligently. Meaning that you can tell they understand what the character motivation was, and what is its role on the larger picture. This is very telling in the case of Jamie. In the books, (as boring as FoC sometimes gets for instance) you realize the change this character is going through; precipitated by losing his fighting hand, and coming to a complete rejection of her sister (even hinting he painfully realizes she's been using him all his life).

The shows were awfully inconsistent in this, because we've got all the drama of getting his hand chopped, then his character seemingly turning around  by influence of Brienne.. and then!? nothing.. once they split away from the books they've just gotten Jamie to the sister-loving idiot he was at the beginning reciting bad soap-opera tropes to Cersei ("We've got each other.. against all of them.. " or something...)

Then you've got the case of the Sansa storyline, I understand that maybe the appearance of fake Arya was too much for the TV show, but taking Sansa to Winterfell created enormous plot-holes.. Can somebody tell me please how the $·%&!! is Kingslanding unaware that Roose married Ramsay to Sansa?.. Wouldn't be the first thing for Cersei to irrationally send the whole Lannister army to the North?!

The lack of ability to write plotlines coherently is also very noticeable with the Tyrion storyline. When he was hand of the King in KL he could show his brilliance and cunning for "playing the game", mostly because he was scheming and interacting with interesting characters in an overall plot that went somewhere. Now in Mereen he's just saying platitudes, one-liners and executing stuff in empty halls, as if the writers are desperately trying to remind us: "Look how smart he is!!".

Of course the most obvious case is that you've got a waste of Dorne... All the masterplan behind the scenes of Doran is lost, and his character is not only depicted as weak coward idiot (which again.. I wouldn't mind even if they change the character). But worse, his motivation to be like this is never stated!, he just pardons everyone, doesn't want to ever go to war and lets everyone disrespect him.. because.. reasons.

Two more points, first, without the rich tapestry of intelligently woven plot the series is becoming very disjointed, Sansa's marriage (and Bolton treason to the Lannisters) has no repercusions; Dorne stuff doesn't change anything anywhere, since they streamlined precisely the plot lines about how this tense conflict among the kingdoms is set, it is just now family drama.

Finally, the bad writing is remarkably noticeable not only in the dialogs, but also in the plot to the point that you can easily tell the main plot lines that GRRM adviced and the ones they are inventing; in the 6th season it has also become sort of formulaic.. they are giving us glimpses in a very ordered manner about the regions where our character of interests are.. some backstory (mostly via Bran), and then a shoking revelation of death or resurrection.. so far.. all of the new season chapters are like taht

 

21 hours ago, ununsullied said:

so well put, spot on! they have abandoned character development for CGI effects and drama. I am mourning the loss of Jaime's character development, and the terrible use of Tyrion and Varys. I ,like a lot of others, HATE Ramsay. Its as if D+D thought 'OMG Ramsay is so evil! Let's make him star of the show!' Ugh. Sigh

 

My thoughts on season 6 are pretty much that they are telling us to skip seasons 3-5. As you said, Jamie's character felt like he was developing and then, he backtracked - he's now the same hot-headed, incestuous idiot he was in seasons 1 and 2.

Daenerys now has her Dothraki back and is planning to take over Westeros... again. Bravo. Thanks for wasting out time for 4 years.

Whitewalkers are coming! Yep, we saw that and knew it in season 1. Nothing new here. Just tell me - how fucking slow do they move?? They seemed pretty speedy in Hardhome and the Night's Watch can move from point A to B in a matter of weeks. Why do the WWs take years to move that same goddamned distance?!

Jon is dead. Oh, wait, nope. Never mind, he isn't.

Arya wants to kill people in season 2 and trains in season 1. She gets stuck doing some boring crap in the last 3 seasons and now she's going back to wanting to kill people with her sword again. 

Brienne served Lady Stark, then swore to serve Sansa. Something happened for a little while somewhere and now she's back to serving Sansa.

Littlefinger is still a prick, being a prick, doing prick-like things.

 

Season 3 could have consisted of 1 episode that tied all the loser ends together (Kill Stanis and Tywin, Zombify the Mount... oh wait, he never really did anything than brutally kill people anyway. Never mind, he's still the same...) and left us at season's 6 doorstep.

And the writing feels like daytime soap opera quality. GRRM went on such an epic killing spree with his characters in the story, that there's really very little left to root for, or against. Some of the most fleshed out, developed characters have all been killed off. The ones they didn't kill off, they sidelined into sub-plots that go on forever without amounting to anything.

"OMG! Hodor died!!!" Who gives a rat's ass? From a character development standpoint, he was 1 dimensional - an huge oaf that only served as an oversize wheelchair. Had Bran actually discovered Hodor's past earlier and his background been developed, I might actually care.

Season 1 made me watch season 2 because it pissed me off. In a very, very good way. Seasons 4-5 made me watch season 6 because they pissed me off in the opposite direction... with boredom.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

4 hours ago, Lerxst said:

 

 

My thoughts on season 6 are pretty much that they are telling us to skip seasons 3-5. As you said, Jamie's character felt like he was developing and then, he backtracked - he's now the same hot-headed, incestuous idiot he was in seasons 1 and 2.

Daenerys now has her Dothraki back and is planning to take over Westeros... again. Bravo. Thanks for wasting out time for 4 years.

Whitewalkers are coming! Yep, we saw that and knew it in season 1. Nothing new here. Just tell me - how fucking slow do they move?? They seemed pretty speedy in Hardhome and the Night's Watch can move from point A to B in a matter of weeks. Why do the WWs take years to move that same goddamned distance?!

Jon is dead. Oh, wait, nope. Never mind, he isn't.

Arya wants to kill people in season 2 and trains in season 1. She gets stuck doing some boring crap in the last 3 seasons and now she's going back to wanting to kill people with her sword again. 

Brienne served Lady Stark, then swore to serve Sansa. Something happened for a little while somewhere and now she's back to serving Sansa.

Littlefinger is still a prick, being a prick, doing prick-like things.

 

Season 3 could have consisted of 1 episode that tied all the loser ends together (Kill Stanis and Tywin, Zombify the Mount... oh wait, he never really did anything than brutally kill people anyway. Never mind, he's still the same...) and left us at season's 6 doorstep.

And the writing feels like daytime soap opera quality. GRRM went on such an epic killing spree with his characters in the story, that there's really very little left to root for, or against. Some of the most fleshed out, developed characters have all been killed off. The ones they didn't kill off, they sidelined into sub-plots that go on forever without amounting to anything.

"OMG! Hodor died!!!" Who gives a rat's ass? From a character development standpoint, he was 1 dimensional - an huge oaf that only served as an oversize wheelchair. Had Bran actually discovered Hodor's past earlier and his background been developed, I might actually care.

Season 1 made me watch season 2 because it pissed me off. In a very, very good way. Seasons 4-5 made me watch season 6 because they pissed me off in the opposite direction... with boredom.

You can blame the books for most of those things 

[Ser Gareth]

12 hours ago, lancerman said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always had the expectation that after the last two books, the pace for Winds would need to be lightning fast for any chance of finishing in two books. 

So this is pretty on par with what I thought. 

Both TWOW and ADOS will have to have the pacing of the last half of ASOS if the series is going to finish in two books.  Considering how many sample chapters there are of TWOW already it's pretty clear the pacing isn't as breathless as ASOS at that stage.

Add to that GRRM has already confirmed he won't be writing the last book as originally intended (A Time for Wolves has now been cut from the series) but that I am sure he'll want to get some of those storylines into the series?  Yeah, I can't see the books finishing in two more novels including TWOW.  There's way too much to wrap up.

[nedstarksdetachedhead]

This season is miles better then season 5. That season will be remembered as the shit stain of the series once it's over. 

[Zombies That Were Promised]

If you had to pick one ,  would you choose Dorne, Iron Islands, or the Aegon/Arianne plot ?  I'm starting to think the sudden appearance of a Fake Targ introduced late in the show could have worked as well as...well, what we've seen from the show.

also think the Stannis filler for 2 seasons in Dragonstone after Blackwater only to meet his end in s5 was ... really weird.

[Lerxst]

Remember when Eddard lost his head? Remember the Red Wedding? Remember when Theon invaded Winterfell? Remember Renly's assassination by his own brother? Remember Brienne defeating Sandor?

Those were pure GoT moments.

Now we have the ex machina season 6 upon us, where everything is being handed to us on a silver platter, wrapped in a neat ribbon. It feels too out of place to even be the same show at this point.

 

[lancerman]

7 minutes ago, Zombies That Were Promised said:

If you had to pick one ,  would you choose Dorne, Iron Islands, or the Aegon/Arianne plot ?  I'm starting to think the sudden appearance of a Fake Targ introduced late in the show could have worked as well as...well, what we've seen from the show.

also think the Stannis filler for 2 seasons in Dragonstone after Blackwater only to meet his end in s5 was ... really weird.

Iron Islands. By a million miles. It atleast is interesting and has a clear direction.

Aegon/Arianne was too much, especially when Dany isn't even close to getting to Westeros yet. Dorne is basically a gutted version of getting an army over to KL for similar reasons. It's like do you want the overly convoluted version of the plot or the stripped down nonsensical one? Who cares at that point.

[Good Guy Garlan]

8 hours ago, Zombies That Were Promised said:

If you had to pick one ,  would you choose Dorne, Iron Islands, or the Aegon/Arianne plot ?  I'm starting to think the sudden appearance of a Fake Targ introduced late in the show could have worked as well as...well, what we've seen from the show.

also think the Stannis filler for 2 seasons in Dragonstone after Blackwater only to meet his end in s5 was ... really weird.

Iron Islands. It ties in better with the rest of the story, and Theon, Asha and Euron are better characters than anyone from Dorne or the Aegon plot.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

The problem for me is that they lightly spoke of Dany in s2-s4 and since then it's like the King's Landing story is in a bubble, not really knowing what is going on anywhere else.  A fake Targaryen on their doorstep would have tied things better between KL and Dany.

[CrypticWeirwood]

12 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Both TWOW and ADOS will have to have the pacing of the last half of ASOS if the series is going to finish in two books.  Considering how many sample chapters there are of TWOW already it's pretty clear the pacing isn't as breathless as ASOS at that stage.

Add to that GRRM has already confirmed he won't be writing the last book as originally intended (A Time for Wolves has now been cut from the series) but that I am sure he'll want to get some of those storylines into the series?  Yeah, I can't see the books finishing in two more novels including TWOW.  There's way too much to wrap up.

What’s this now about Martin not writing the last book as originally intended, and a volume being “split off” from series?

[Good Guy Garlan]

1 hour ago, Zombies That Were Promised said:

The problem for me is that they lightly spoke of Dany in s2-s4 and since then it's like the King's Landing story is in a bubble, not really knowing what is going on anywhere else.  A fake Targaryen on their doorstep would have tied things better between KL and Dany.

I think Euron works even better. He's likely the literal bridge between Dany and Westeros, the guy who's gonna bring her home, and he's an immediate threat to the KL elite with his attack on the Reach. 

Aegon is the one who's on a bubble, in my opinion, only interacting with Arianne and the Dorne people, who are also a bit isolated themselves. 

[Zombies That Were Promised]

Yeah I just don't see the KL cast doing anything right now except about the High Sparrow and... the Blackfish?  Euron and the Dornish open rebellion are bigger threats, hopefully explored further in season 7.  The Sand Bitches didn't kill the Martells just cause they wanted to rule, they wanted to rule so they could march to war.

[SerMixalot]

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 1:25 AM, Lerxst said:

No, not a book reader (I feel you judging me!). My book reading era stop right after the Asimov years. I just noticed a certain pace and tone set for the first 4 seasons, then season 5 dragged a bit and now, in season 6 it just feels... rushed? At least some parts feel off-paced. Some feel rushed while other feel bogged down under their own weight.

Part of this whole feel is the fact that there are about 9 plot lines to cover and 10 episodes to cover them in, each 50 or so minutes. That's like watching an hour long TV show about a character, once a year. It better be a damned good hour and/or an amazing character to keep me coming back!

They need to make good use of their time and when they don't it just kind of gets amplified (Dorne... anyone?). 

The problem you are experiencing is that for 4 or 5 episodes NOTHING happened, then BANG something happens.  Dany confronting the Dothraki on the back of Drogon to get the Dothraki to her side would have worked great in episode 1 or even 2.  To have to go through 4 episodes of rape threats, a questionable at best temple burning scene to last night is, well a WASTE OF TIME.  All the story needed was last night's scene.  But that would FORCE the showrunners to write an actual story instead of hitting a few plot points and filler filler filler.  Again compare the 1st season where nearly every scene moved the story FORWARD, not leaving stuff in limbo, restating things again to this season.  Night and Day

[SerMixalot]

BTW the argument that AFFC and ADWD are bad or unfilmable is just laughable.  the Showrunners push characters into illogical situations to have something happen that they want to happen-ie Brienne meeting Arya/Sandor-so Brienne could fight Sandor, or the whole Sansa at Winterfell plot.  The problem is they want something to happen so they make nonsensical changes then are left with the illogical to deal with.  She cant tell Sansa about Sandor cause that would impact Sansa NOW, but it makes no sense that she wouldn't say anything

As for AFFC and ADWD, Brienne's season 4 and 5 story could have been travelling through the Riverlands seeing the impact on people's lives, a few scenes here and there to give a. depth to the world, b. thematic importance and nuance to the destructive nature of the game of thrones, c. kept us in touch with what is happening in the Riverlands.  It could have culminated with her fighting some outlaws and being captured-certainly an action worthy story.  Her story could have built up to a confrontation with the bandits terrorizing the little people.  This would have kept alive the Frey/Tully/Riverlands story alive and it could have tied perfectly into the rise of the High Sparrow-you would see the germination in the war ravaged lands to a rise at Kings Landing. 

Get rid of Hardhome and Olly and the Wall could have had a better paced story for 2 seasons.  Have Jon negotiate with Stannis and the Wildings, show Melisandra starting to doubt, have Davos establish a relationship with Jon that would justify his actions in Season 6 Show the Watch having problems with Jon Snow, have the whole process spread out instead of being rushed to get Jon to Hardhome.  You want a battle in Episode 9? Fine make it Stannis getting defeated, but make it larger and epic. 

Keep Sansa in the Vale, putting her in Winterfell was a HUGE mistake, create some Vale drama-will Sansa drop the dime on LF, show LF messing with Lord Robyn, shit have Robyn die in episode 10, show LF balancing the Lannisters with the Vale

Keep Tyrion OUT of Mereen, have him be a player through Volantis and the slavers camps and the mercenaries, Establish the battle forming outside of Mereen, make Dany's story make sense, make her actions make sense, it would take expanding the cast there but a person or 2 but doable.  If you cant make feudal politics dramatic then you have no right showrunning a series like ASOIAF.

I honestly don't know what to do with Conleth Hill-he may have to take a Bran year off but keeping him with Tyrion is just bad.

The story is there, you need to consider AFFC and ADWD as one book, all the characters are there, the theme though goes beyond what the showrunners want to show-the suffering that follows a game of thrones, it can be dramatic, if done right, but they didn't even try

 

 

 

[SerMixalot]

Honestly, how can you take this show seriously at this point.  Ellaria and the Sand Snakes KILLED Cersei's daughter, Cersei is now stating that if you hurt the Lannisters they will come after you-A Lannister Always Pays His Debts- and Jamie is going to the Riverlands.

[SerMixalot]

and the argument that the pacing this season has been good, is well absurd

lets look at the storylines

Dany could have had the dothraki in episode 1 or 2 doing what she did in Episode 6 without 4 episodes of repetitive rape threats

Tyrion has done nothing but get Dany's ships burned and reestablished slavery could have been done in 1 episode

KL-maybe 2 or 3 episodes worth of story-HS meets Tommen and Margery, Cersei gets the Tyrells to move instead we had Cersei and Jamie being ostrasized at Small Council meetings and Ser Strong killing some dude

Arya-gets beat up for 5 episodes then quits the FM, could have been done in 1 or 2 episodes

Winterfell-Ramsey killed his father, Fat Walda and baby, now has another stark

The Wall-ok a little bit more happened, Jon rose, Sansa and Brienne arrive, and killers were killed, not really much

Bran sat around for 5 episodes and then has to flee

Really very little has happened over 6 episodes that couldn't have been done in 2 or 3, if the writing was good

 

[ununsullied]

2 hours ago, SerMixalot said:

and the argument that the pacing this season has been good, is well absurd

lets look at the storylines

Dany could have had the dothraki in episode 1 or 2 doing what she did in Episode 6 without 4 episodes of repetitive rape threats

Tyrion has done nothing but get Dany's ships burned and reestablished slavery could have been done in 1 episode

KL-maybe 2 or 3 episodes worth of story-HS meets Tommen and Margery, Cersei gets the Tyrells to move instead we had Cersei and Jamie being ostrasized at Small Council meetings and Ser Strong killing some dude

Arya-gets beat up for 5 episodes then quits the FM, could have been done in 1 or 2 episodes

Winterfell-Ramsey killed his father, Fat Walda and baby, now has another stark

The Wall-ok a little bit more happened, Jon rose, Sansa and Brienne arrive, and killers were killed, not really much

Bran sat around for 5 episodes and then has to flee

Really very little has happened over 6 episodes that couldn't have been done in 2 or 3, if the writing was good

 

totally agree with all your points. People think the pacing has been better because there was the Whitewalkers reveal and the Hodor moment in one episode. The whole Arya plot has dragged for over a season. They could have had 3 episode in the House of Black and White and got it over with, and given all that waste of time to another character. They could have cut out Dorne all together and given that to another character. Ugh!!!