Have they lost it?

[Fearodh]

I do enjoy the show A LOT more now that they overtook the books and I no longer have a clue what is going to happen. It feels completely different to me now and I am very happy that we get to see new stuff. Something that can't be said about the books since years and years.

I am also overall happy with most stories in season 6. Also in the other seasons there were always some things annoying and many things entertaining for me, which is why I kept on watching it. So much about my view toward the show.

The general "style" has not changed much, it always had elements of soap opera. That you complain in your first post about not liking Sansa since season 1 and that your title is "Have they lost it?" actually makes no sense at all. You can't loose something you never had, and whether you "like" a character or not is very individual. There are many ppl who like Sansa. After all, the show has millions and millions of viewers, the numbers are still growing if you compare it to earlier seasons, so they must be doing something right. 

After reading your post, I don't really understand how it connects to your question of whether they have "lost" it.

[JonSnowed]

I am absolutely loving Season 6, it's fast paced we are getting answers to stuff the books have left us waiting years for.  Season 5 was not as good as the other seasons but then AFFC/ADWD were by far the weakest books of the series and in some areas the show improved on them.

[SuperMario]

The show has definitely lost it since season 3. While nothing has the magic of the first season, at least in the first three seasons, the show had better writing, plot and characterization. The scenes made sense and the show progressed in a logical manner. Characters made choices that made sense and the consequences were legit. That all changed starting in season 4 and really took off in season 5.

Maybe it's because the writers have lost their will or the weaknesses are starting to show (probably a combination of both), but if you objectively look at seasons 4-6, things not only seem very rushed, but the various plots have no connections to each other. Watching the show feels like the showrunners have bullet points for what they want to show and then just check off each bullet point as they edit it without thinking of the overall picture.

"Oh, we have to make sure we have a Tyrion scene, so let's get that in there. Then we'll go to Jon at the wall. And it's been three episodes since anyone mentioned Dorne, so let's make sure that gets in there."

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

The only good thing this season was episode 5, and that was heavily influenced by GRRM = Bran and the Theater group. Hopefully there will be more GRRM spoilery scenes this season to maintain the quality level.

[Ser Maverick]

Considering this all started as soon as they stopped following the source material, I'm not so sure we can say they ever had it.

[RUSSELL BELL]

Nah it hasn't. But then again I haven't read all of the books so I'm probably coming from the perspective of a non book fan. But I keep saying that no tv show can produce more than 5 excellent seasons of television, there is always a dip somewhere. (With the rare exception of Breaking Bad that got better as it got along). The sixth season has been excellent though so it'd be a shame to miss out on it. However, Game Of Thrones is definitely resorting to tv tropes more than it used to, theres no denying that. 

[HashRouge]

23 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

 

 

19 hours ago, SuperMario said:

The show has definitely lost it since season 3. While nothing has the magic of the first season, at least in the first three seasons, the show had better writing, plot and characterization. The scenes made sense and the show progressed in a logical manner. Characters made choices that made sense and the consequences were legit. That all changed starting in season 4 and really took off in season 5.

Maybe it's because the writers have lost their will or the weaknesses are starting to show (probably a combination of both), but if you objectively look at seasons 4-6, things not only seem very rushed, but the various plots have no connections to each other. Watching the show feels like the showrunners have bullet points for what they want to show and then just check off each bullet point as they edit it without thinking of the overall picture.

"Oh, we have to make sure we have a Tyrion scene, so let's get that in there. Then we'll go to Jon at the wall. And it's been three episodes since anyone mentioned Dorne, so let's make sure that gets in there."

Okay but don't you think part of that is due to one of the primary weaknesses of the books. I.e. the fact that the episodes end up hopping round Westeros from character to character is 100% due to the way the books are written. The long POV chapters are very hard to adapt to a TV series because if you have 8 or 9 different main characters all in different places you have to keep up with them all as best you can, you can't just ignore certain characters for half a series. It worked better earlier on because more of the characters were in the same place - so Catelyn and Robb were usually together, we had multiple characters in King's Landing (Cersei, Joffrey, Sansa, Tyrion, Oberyn, Littlefinger) and then it was just a case of keeping up with Arya, Dany and Jon. So it didn't feel as fragmented. But now the number of locations have expanded, which makes things far harder. It's the same structure as the books really. If you think about the first book, there are far fewer locations and each location has more main characters. Which is far easier to adapt than the later books, where the main characters are scattered all over the place. 

[SuperMario]

4 hours ago, HashRouge said:

 

Okay but don't you think part of that is due to one of the primary weaknesses of the books. I.e. the fact that the episodes end up hopping round Westeros from character to character is 100% due to the way the books are written. The long POV chapters are very hard to adapt to a TV series because if you have 8 or 9 different main characters all in different places you have to keep up with them all as best you can, you can't just ignore certain characters for half a series. It worked better earlier on because more of the characters were in the same place - so Catelyn and Robb were usually together, we had multiple characters in King's Landing (Cersei, Joffrey, Sansa, Tyrion, Oberyn, Littlefinger) and then it was just a case of keeping up with Arya, Dany and Jon. So it didn't feel as fragmented. But now the number of locations have expanded, which makes things far harder. It's the same structure as the books really. If you think about the first book, there are far fewer locations and each location has more main characters. Which is far easier to adapt than the later books, where the main characters are scattered all over the place. 

Yes, I do agree that it is harder to adapt as the books expand. While the books are in more locations, because GRRM has more time and space to expand on characters and plots, it doesn't seem as rushed or sloppy. The show probably should have left certain plots our altogether - Dorne and the Iron Islands. But I still think even if you take out some of that, it still would seem rushed and sloppy. Take the Wall right now. Jon, Sansa, Brienne, Davos and Mel are all there yet the scenes with all of them have been stilted at best.

[HashRouge]

49 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

Yes, I do agree that it is harder to adapt as the books expand. While the books are in more locations, because GRRM has more time and space to expand on characters and plots, it doesn't seem as rushed or sloppy. The show probably should have left certain plots our altogether - Dorne and the Iron Islands. But I still think even if you take out some of that, it still would seem rushed and sloppy. Take the Wall right now. Jon, Sansa, Brienne, Davos and Mel are all there yet the scenes with all of them have been stilted at best.

That's so subjective though - for instance, I love the scenes at the Wall this season. I think they're brilliant!

[dsug]

There's an R&R thread already. 

Who keeps approving this shit lol

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

4 hours ago, SuperMario said:

Yes, I do agree that it is harder to adapt as the books expand. While the books are in more locations, because GRRM has more time and space to expand on characters and plots, it doesn't seem as rushed or sloppy. The show probably should have left certain plots our altogether - Dorne and the Iron Islands. But I still think even if you take out some of that, it still would seem rushed and sloppy. Take the Wall right now. Jon, Sansa, Brienne, Davos and Mel are all there yet the scenes with all of them have been stilted at best.

While i agree there is a certain rushed element to the show at the moment IMO, I think its really not possible to say 'oh they should have left out this or that storyline', because GRRM has created a tapestry of storylines that intereweave and have knock on effects. The big major change in the show is the lack of Aegon, and his non appearance has led to changes in pretty much every other storyline in one form or another, because having to make that change is like a butterfly effect of chaos, something very difficult to work around.

Unfortunately sometimes leaving out storylines is an entirely necessary part of the adaptation process, Aegon was probably one of those necessary changes. 

But there is no doubt that the books have their part to play in the problems of the show, no matter what anyone says, the last two books expanded massively, in scope and detail, transforming into a very different type of story that is very difficult to adapt and contain in a 10 episode format.

[Greg B]

From a story perspective, I think they've found it. The material adapted from the rather poor fourth and fifth books was mixed -- in at least one case, better than the source material (Hardhome) and in some cases even worse (Dorne). The dialogue is worse; the show writers can't compete with the Martin there. But in terms of the actual story, the show is now better paced, tighter, and better structured than a novel series that appears to be a trainwreck in progress.

[SuperMario]

2 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

While i agree there is a certain rushed element to the show at the moment IMO, I think its really not possible to say 'oh they should have left out this or that storyline', because GRRM has created a tapestry of storylines that intereweave and have knock on effects. The big major change in the show is the lack of Aegon, and his non appearance has led to changes in pretty much every other storyline in one form or another, because having to make that change is like a butterfly effect of chaos, something very difficult to work around.

Unfortunately sometimes leaving out storylines is an entirely necessary part of the adaptation process, Aegon was probably one of those necessary changes. 

But there is no doubt that the books have their part to play in the problems of the show, no matter what anyone says, the last two books expanded massively, in scope and detail, transforming into a very different type of story that is very difficult to adapt and contain in a 10 episode format.

Yeah, and I agree to some extent. Clearly books 4 and 5 have a different feel to them and spread out the story and then some. The first book was the most concise, and every chapter was very important, so it's not surprising that the first season of the show also was the most concise. But I don't think you can just blame the show slipping on books 4 and 5 meandering a bit because most of season 4 was based on ASOS, arguably the best book, yet the show already at that point was losing its luster. I honestly don't think the books should have been adapted to begin with or at least should have waited until the full story was done. But that's a moot point.

[Firefae]

The problem I have with the show is D&D unnecessary changing things. I don't have anything against changes if they are properly executed. Most of the changes on the show are poorly executed( Dorne, kings moot, Jaime's character). And of course the shock factor.

[Richard Writhen]

The show jumped the shark here, in S05E06 when Bronn punches Tyene in the face but it doesn't connect by like a foot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghprWEjcNRY

[RUSSELL BELL]

On 25 May 2016 at 8:58 AM, Desert Fox said:

The first half of S6 is better than any other season other than arguably S1. The first episode was boring, but the first episode of the season is always boring because they spend 2-3 minutes on each character just giving us an update on what they are doing.

S2, 3 and 5 all have the same season structure. First 4-5 eps set up the conflict. The next few episodes add some complications, a surprise or two, and hint at the climax. Then eps 8-10 show the conflicts explode in crazy unexpected ways. And episode 10 teases the next season. This make the back half of the seasons really good, but the front half is unbalanced and boring. They basically use a three act structure for the whole season. Most tv shows use a 2 or 3 act structure each episode. Game of Thrones cannot (or chooses not to) because there is only enough time for 1-2 scenes per story lines per episode. Characters basically have a plotline for the whole season.

Season 1 is pretty similar except the set up is more interesting because it's all new.

Season 4 is different because it was basically an adaptation of the third act of ASOS. There is a lot of conflict in the beginning of the season without taking 3-4 episode to set it all up.

Season 6 is basically doing the same thing as 4, taking up right where S5 left off. Ep 1 was clearly a set up episode, but by Ep2 stuff was going on. Conflicts had arisen and then been resolved.

Maybe S6 will shit the bed at the second half, but the first half has been great.

This is actually quite true, I do remember some people always saying that Game of Thrones was typically 8 boring episodes and 1 great one (Even if that's not necessarily true). 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Season 3 and 4 were adapted from one book (book 3, ASOS, Season 5 scrapped most of the good stuff from books 4 and 5 (AFFC and ADWD) and they added more of their own made up and switched stuff. Now, they have to follow that same path as much as they can do to The Butterfly Effect. They accelerated the whole story so that it will only end in now as of today, approx 18 more episodes. That decision to go off books to the extent they did seems to have caused the disconnect and apparent "confusion" as to coherent story telling. A lesson to be learned for future "adaptations". Still, to much of the masses, as long as it has blood, zombies, death, gore, sadism, sex, nudity and dragons, it will still have a following and that is what they seemed to desire over the intrigue like say in ADWD.

[WingedShadow]

No, I think they've found it. Bryan Cogman led them off the path last season when he talked them into including Dorne in the show(D&D were planning on omitting the storyline completely) but Season 6's first half has been, in my opinion, the most consistently good first half, even if you include the brief Dorne scene(I personally don't have a problem with Show!Dorne but I do see why people would). 

 

I think this "rushing" everyone is referring to is just the natural course of a story. We're nearing the end of the story. It's only natural that things are speeding up to reach the conclusion.

[FingerlittleGood]

I have never read the books but I don't have a problem with the TV series.. Watching TV series you have to realize some episodes are going to be epic, some are mediocre and some are just boring. No big TV series ever had all the episodes great and on point so basically I just tend to accept and take lame episodes with the great episodes. Really the only thing that has annoyed me this season is the attempt to add comedy with childish jokes and noises. The fart sound at the small council meeting when the mountain arrived seem like a 12 year old writing the script. Oh well lol

[Desert Fox]

2 hours ago, RUSSELL BELL said:

This is actually quite true, I do remember some people always saying that Game of Thrones was typically 8 boring episodes and 1 great one (Even if that's not necessarily true). 

It's more true that most show fans would want to admit. For season 2 and 3, it was like 5-6 boring episodes, 1-2 decent, 2-3 great, and one giant tease for the next season. For S5, some of the boring ones were dowright bad, but eps 7-10 were very good. Before S4, the finales were actually pretty bad imo. But I think I just hate finales that set up the next season. Really, I hate when the finale does it and then the premiere does it again the next season.