Have they lost it?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

5 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

It's more true that most show fans would want to admit. For season 2 and 3, it was like 5-6 boring episodes, 1-2 decent, 2-3 great, and one giant tease for the next season. For S5, some of the boring ones were dowright bad, but eps 7-10 were very good. Before S4, the finales were actually pretty bad imo. But I think I just hate finales that set up the next season. Really, I hate when the finale does it and then the premiere does it again the next season.

Again it all depends what you find interesting, fun and boring. It also highlights the differing audience types watching the show. 

For some, the slower, dense character moments, especially ones lifted from the books are their favourite bits, so they would argue about what they found boring and it might be different to others. 

I've been watching Black Sails, due to recommendations on here, and I actually really enjoy it, but funnily enough I cannot ever imagine it ever really hitting the same sort of viewing figures as GoT, because it often lacks a level of human drama and can be quite talky and slow in parts. I think its a good comparison because its a very popular show on these boards, and in some ways I can see bits of GoT that are similar at times, but at the same time many people wouldn't be interested in a show like that. Even something like the wire is more of a cult hit rather than a huge ratings winner. 

 

[Ser Gareth]

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/27/11787534/game-of-thrones-show-better-than-books-spoilers - I think this is a fair reflection.  The show is improving now it's unshackled from having to follow the last two ponderous tomes.  It definitely hasn't lost it.

[The Knight in Motley]

"Lost it" is subjective. They have changed audiences: The first couple seasons were (mostly) for the book fans, then as the show grew in popularity they started writing it for a much more general audience.

[Ser_Gerassime]

I might have just registered in this forum to comment here.. so tight your seatbelts

I agree with most of the original OP, last 2 seasons have been remarkably lesser quality in writing.. in a show that is very dependent on intelligent and logical plot development this is very noticeable (it is still a very good show, if only because the actors also created great characters IMHO).

I don't mind the streamlining of stuff, or the re-writing of characters and arcs that much, as long as is done intelligently. Meaning that you can tell they understand what the character motivation was, and what is its role on the larger picture. This is very telling in the case of Jamie. In the books, (as boring as FoC sometimes gets for instance) you realize the change this character is going through; precipitated by losing his fighting hand, and coming to a complete rejection of her sister (even hinting he painfully realizes she's been using him all his life).

The shows were awfully inconsistent in this, because we've got all the drama of getting his hand chopped, then his character seemingly turning around  by influence of Brienne.. and then!? nothing.. once they split away from the books they've just gotten Jamie to the sister-loving idiot he was at the beginning reciting bad soap-opera tropes to Cersei ("We've got each other.. against all of them.. " or something...)

Then you've got the case of the Sansa storyline, I understand that maybe the appearance of fake Arya was too much for the TV show, but taking Sansa to Winterfell created enormous plot-holes.. Can somebody tell me please how the $·%&!! is Kingslanding unaware that Roose married Ramsay to Sansa?.. Wouldn't be the first thing for Cersei to irrationally send the whole Lannister army to the North?!

The lack of ability to write plotlines coherently is also very noticeable with the Tyrion storyline. When he was hand of the King in KL he could show his brilliance and cunning for "playing the game", mostly because he was scheming and interacting with interesting characters in an overall plot that went somewhere. Now in Mereen he's just saying platitudes, one-liners and executing stuff in empty halls, as if the writers are desperately trying to remind us: "Look how smart he is!!".

Of course the most obvious case is that you've got a waste of Dorne... All the masterplan behind the scenes of Doran is lost, and his character is not only depicted as weak coward idiot (which again.. I wouldn't mind even if they change the character). But worse, his motivation to be like this is never stated!, he just pardons everyone, doesn't want to ever go to war and lets everyone disrespect him.. because.. reasons.

Two more points, first, without the rich tapestry of intelligently woven plot the series is becoming very disjointed, Sansa's marriage (and Bolton treason to the Lannisters) has no repercusions; Dorne stuff doesn't change anything anywhere, since they streamlined precisely the plot lines about how this tense conflict among the kingdoms is set, it is just now family drama.

Finally, the bad writing is remarkably noticeable not only in the dialogs, but also in the plot to the point that you can easily tell the main plot lines that GRRM adviced and the ones they are inventing; in the 6th season it has also become sort of formulaic.. they are giving us glimpses in a very ordered manner about the regions where our character of interests are.. some backstory (mostly via Bran), and then a shoking revelation of death or resurrection.. so far.. all of the new season chapters are like taht

[Jairion Lannister]

Even though I'd say the show now (S6) isn't on the level as the first one, it's definitely improved upon 5 (the worst), and while many of the plots are quite simplified, they've been mostly solid this season, moving at a decent pace and being fairly engaging.

Some of the dialogue has occasionally been very out of place (Dothraki lad banter), but most of it's been alright.

[Jairion Lannister]

7 minutes ago, Ser_Gerassime said:

Then you've got the case of the Sansa storyline, I understand that maybe the appearance of fake Arya was too much for the TV show, but taking Sansa to Winterfell created enormous plot-holes.. Can somebody tell me please how the $·%&!! is Kingslanding unaware that Roose married Ramsay to Sansa?.. Wouldn't be the first thing for Cersei to irrationally send the whole Lannister army to the North?!

Didn't Littlefinger go south to KL and tell Cersei that this had occurred? And as a result, Cersei essentially allowed him to go against the Boltons, and take the North for himself. The details are a bit hazy as I don't remember it too well, but I'm fairly sure Littlefinger was playing both sides in that regard.

It'd also be irrational for Cersei to send the entire army north, even for someone as irrational as Cersei. They'd have a ridiculously hard time getting past the Neck, and by the time they'd gotten to a freezing north they're completely unaccustomed to, they'd be picked off by every single house in the north...both the ones loyal to the Boltons, and those who remain loyal to the Starks.

[Ser_Gerassime]

8 minutes ago, Jairion Lannister said:

Didn't Littlefinger go south to KL and tell Cersei that this had occurred? And as a result, Cersei essentially allowed him to go against the Boltons, and take the North for himself. The details are a bit hazy as I don't remember it too well, but I'm fairly sure Littlefinger was playing both sides in that regard.

It'd also be irrational for Cersei to send the entire army north, even for someone as irrational as Cersei. They'd have a ridiculously hard time getting past the Neck, and by the time they'd gotten to a freezing north they're completely unaccustomed to, they'd be picked off by every single house in the north...both the ones loyal to the Boltons, and those who remain loyal to the Starks.

Oh Ok.. I forgot about that... I hope my point still stands for the other cases !

[Greg B]

2 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/27/11787534/game-of-thrones-show-better-than-books-spoilers - I think this is a fair reflection.  The show is improving now it's unshackled from having to follow the last two ponderous tomes.  It definitely hasn't lost it.

Thanks for the link. Good piece, with which I agree wholeheartedly.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

2 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/27/11787534/game-of-thrones-show-better-than-books-spoilers - I think this is a fair reflection.  The show is improving now it's unshackled from having to follow the last two ponderous tomes.  It definitely hasn't lost it.

Interesting, Im sure the Fair Game documentary thread would lose their minds at anyone suggesting that the show is outdoing the books!

[Castigear]

I simply think that the pace of the show has abruptly changed. I am not going to say that it is necessarily a good thing or bad thing, and everyone will have their own opinion on that. I am of two minds about it...I like seeing payoffs of storylines, but I don't want to miss any nuance...I would have liked to have seen the conversation where Jon told Sansa about his resurrection, and a few other conversations that we have skipped over just because it wouldn't have conveyed any new information. I also don't want the show to be over sooner than it could be.

That being said, Everyone is making the assumption that it is a product of D&D flying solo, or the reduction of GRRM's involvement...when the truth might be much simpler. If you watch just about any movie, the third act is generally at a much quicker more frantic pace because all of the threads are converging and coming to a climax. The same goes for the show. As plot threads reach their third acts AND start overlapping more, we will all automatically get the feeling that things are ramping in terms of pace and payoff. (granted the skipped scenes are making that feeling worse). Point is that part of what we are feeling may just be the nature of what point we are in the story.

Make no mistake, despite what I just said, I am thoroughly enjoying this season. I just don't want the show to be over prematurely, and the rumors of us only having a total of about 18 episodes left sounds crazy. 

[Jerry Drake]

I never thought that show had anything to lose in the first place. I suspected I wouldn't like the show adaptation more than the books and the hype and good reviews of the first season made me want to read the books first and then enjoy the show. And I enjoyed both rides immensely. It's just a different imagination of the story - a different telling. Even Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy was way different than the books in all screen/tv adaptations and Douglas Adams was heavily involved in all of them, until he died at least. Different doesn't equate to bad. I watched Dune as a kid and found it amazing, even though it's a horrible adaptation of the book. That being said, Jodorovsky's Dune wouldn't be a faithful depiction of the book either, it would have been his interpretation of the theme of the book, and I can only feel sad that it was never made. (Perhaps even better that it wasn't made, so it doesn't fall short on the expectations).

And it all could be just a matter of perspective. Now that we can't compare the show with the books anymore we can't know just how far off the course the show writers are and how much they've changed. Case in point - Roose's death in the show seems cheap and as a bit of an anti-climax, whereas 'Hold the Door' seems spot on and a emotional parting that advances the story. I would suspect the latter is part of Martin's storytelling while Roose is more likely killed off in the show to do away with introducing another dozen or so characters for the Siege of Winterfell. 

[Daske]

On ‎25‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 9:42 AM, Pecan said:

...

I wouldn't be surprised if, ten or fifteen years from now, someone takes another swing at adapting ASOIAF. If that happens, it'll be interesting to compare the shows and see if anything was learned from the original.  

 

There is no chance in hell of this.

You are ignoring how successful the show is. Noone (normal watchers) would spend all the time to watch it apart from dedicated fans. And even then those that hate the current version would just start complaining again that it was also rubbish because of something or other that wasn't 'right'.

Maybe in 50 years. Ditto LotR.

 

[John Doe]

On 25.5.2016 at 3:20 AM, Good Guy Garlan said:

That comes straight from the books, though. At least that is a faithful adaptation. 

To your overall point, yes. I mean, sure, the show's always been soap opera-y, and there was always going to be an expected dip (or more like nosedive) in quality after Storm because Feast and Dance are simply not good. 

That doesn't serve as an excuse. Had they made a faithful adaptation and the result still turned out worse than the previous seasons it might work. But they threw everything out that made the last two books interesting and replaced it with bad fanfic. The blame is entirely on them. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, John Doe said:

That doesn't serve as an excuse. Had they made a faithful adaptation and the result still turned out worse than the previous seasons it might work. But they through everything out that made the last two books interesting and replaced it with bad fanfic. The blame is entirely on them. 

More like they salvaged anything that they could possibly use from those books and discarded the stuff that wasn't necessary, and had to fiddle around to make it work.

I still find it amazing that some people call for a more faithful adaptation of the books like that would somehow make good tv

[John Doe]

4 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

More like they salvaged anything that they could possibly use from those books and discarded the stuff that wasn't necessary, and had to fiddle around to make it work.

I still find it amazing that some people call for a more faithful adaptation of the books like that would somehow make good tv

The first four seasons were more faithful and pretty much everyone agrees that those were better than the last two. So how is it strange that people call for a more faithful adaption?

What was unnecessary in your book? The whole northern/Stannis plot? The pink letter? A kingsmoot that is actually interesting because not every participant has the same plan? Arianne instead of the Sand Snakes? Jaime's character development as opposed to raping his sister next to his son's corpse? Having battles decided by something other than twenty good men and ships that magically burst into flames?

[Neds Secret]

7 minutes ago, John Doe said:

The first four seasons were more faithful and pretty much everyone agrees that those were better than the last two. So how is it strange that people call for a more faithful adaption?

What was unnecessary in your book? The whole northern/Stannis plot? The pink letter? A kingsmoot that is actually interesting because not every participant has the same plan? Arianne instead of the Sand Snakes? Jaime's character development as opposed to raping his sister next to his son's corpse? Having battles decided by something other than twenty good men and ships that magically burst into flames?

and that's just skimming the surface, Olly, Olyvar, bad pussy, disembarking north of the wall from hardhome, LFs incompetence, The north (dis)remembers, Davos forgetting Stannis, fooking tanner, Valyrian lifeguards feud ex machina, teleporting harpies, Pycelle farting, Euron2 eyes kinslaying kingslaying King cause he has a dick, Varys Wonka, perjury Margery, High Cobbler, Bloodravens barber shop, What you talking about Willas, it never fucking ends! The D$S are the self parody that just won't quit, they have lost it, because I cannot believe the people who gave us seasons 1-3 are the same people responsible for the last 2 seasons, unless they were lobotomised!

[Uncle Benjen's]

I think it's important to remember that we have gone out of our way to comment on a forum - we probably represent >1% of the show's viewership and therefore aren't regular views.

Your average viewer might be finding that this season is the best so far (as my non-book reading friends do) whereas I am in a constant state of criticism in nearly every scene. I think this is due to the sort of superiority complex that comes from the knowledge of GRRM's world the books give you (including AWOIAF & the short stories) and it becomes frustrating when you see D&D create an interpretation that doesn't align to the world of ASOIAF that you have in your head. The one you imagine is always going to be infinitely better. I just wish they were doing 10 seasons, but alas - they want to pursue other interests.

It's just about perception.

[Orphalesion]

On 24/05/2016 at 10:43 PM, Lerxst said:

 

1)The first thing I noticed about season 6, though, is the lack of GRRM's writing influence. I'm completely confident he lacks any ability to write a gratifying climactic scene to any plot line he's created.

2)Mereen seems to be a void that sucks characters in and lets them waste away in limbo until they escape. Now we have one of the most entertaining character in the show, Tyrion, stuck there, falling victim to the same neglect Daenerys did.

3)Sansa, I thought she was the weakest character from season 1 and am disgusted that I've had to endure 6 seasons with her. I'd rather watch 6 seasons of Sandor Clegane and follow a character that actually has depth and isn't a stereotype like Sansa.

4)Arya - one of the other few plots that are interesting and I wish they'd focus on more. Although I'm not sure what the point of her blindness was supposed to be.

 

 

1) Hello? Battle of Blackwater? Also GRRM left earlier than Season 6. I think his last episode was "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" which...yeah...was pretty boring and anti-climactic for a episode that had Jaime rescue Brienne from a Bear...that scene was rushed, if anything...

Also since when is lacking gratifying, climactic scenes something desirable?

2) You mean exactly like the books? *zing* Oh...not a book reader, well rest assured that Mereen is just as boring, dragging and pointless in the books, only longer...much longer...and more repetitive... every Dany chapter basically has her holding audience, complaining about the dresses she has to wear for those audiences, being upset that Mereen won't accept her reforms, moaning about some slave who was assasinated and ogling Daario's ass.

3)  Sansa has heaps of depth, most of which is revealed in ways that don't translate well to the screen. Also in modern fantasy literature Sandors are a dime a dozen, but Sansas are hard to find, which actually makes her refreshing imho. I always look forward to her chapters and scenes.

I'll also never understand this frame of mind: Sansa lies to Jon -> LOOK AT HOW HORRIBLE A PERSON SHE IS! SHE LIED TO JON!!!!1one!!!112

Sandor kills a defenseless farmer and his daughter for helping him and the little brat (a show invention btw) -> What an interesting and deep character!

Am I missing something? Also, the pathetic loser lusts after a 13/14 year old, ewww...

4)[sarcasm] Because there's nothing cliche about the rebellious princess who runs around in breeches, swings a sword and becomes a "badass" assasin, no siree, that's fresh and new and novel and not found in every second, badly written penny store novel, not at all [/sarcasm]

[Good Guy Garlan]

5 hours ago, John Doe said:

The first four seasons were more faithful and pretty much everyone agrees that those were better than the last two. So how is it strange that people call for a more faithful adaption?

What was unnecessary in your book? The whole northern/Stannis plot? The pink letter? A kingsmoot that is actually interesting because not every participant has the same plan? Arianne instead of the Sand Snakes? Jaime's character development as opposed to raping his sister next to his son's corpse? Having battles decided by something other than twenty good men and ships that magically burst into flames?

The first four seasons were based on books that are actually good. Feast and Dance are entirely different animals, so a straightforward faithful adaptation just doesn't cut it with them. 

I do agree that D&D didn't do a good job of salvaging the better bits of the last books, though. 

[Orphalesion]

27 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

The first four seasons were based on books that are actually good. Feast and Dance are entirely different animals, so a straightforward faithful adaptation just doesn't cut it with them. 

I do agree that D&D didn't do a good job of salvaging the better bits of the last books, though. 

That's pretty much it, GoT-SoS where a swift river, easy sailing, beautiful scenery, fun for all involved. In FFC that river hit a low lying swamp area and split into dozens of boggy sidearms. Navigating it becomes a chore, there's annoying mossies and it smells.

A complete, faithful adaption of those books would have made awful television. They needed to cut and merge storylines, just like Garlan, however I don't think they made the right choices in what to cut or what storyline to merge with which.

Personally I would have wished for a Dorne storyline that would have been a simplified version of the book plot. If we really can't have the Griffs, then have Doran place his faith in Daenerys instead, I'm sure Arianne would have been fine with backing her. If it is really necessary, then have Elaria take over for Darkstar, but have her be punished for it.

They could have merged Quentyn's storyline with Tyrion and Varys traveling to Mereen, Quentyn still could have died in the attack at the Colosseum. he would have just needed to be a glorified extra, existing so that the rest of the Dorne storyline makes at least somewhat sense. 

Question is if they could have used Jaime as a Oakheart standin, or Bronn? I can see the sense of having the Dorne storyline onto an already established character, but I have no clue on how to do that, except maybe giving Darkstar's role to Elaria. Could have been an epic Arianne against Elaria word-fight though...

Jaime's storyline and Brienne's were kinda similar, so it would have made sense to send them abroad together. Plus, more Jaime/Birenne dynamic, it was great in the books!

Naturally I was the most diappointed that the Vale storyline didn't happen. Th Eyrie's so beautiful, I'd like to have seen more of it. No idea though whom they could have ysed to stand in for Jeyne Pool, though... She was already adapted out, so they couldn't even have reintroduced her with a "previously on" segment. There was speculation that they might use Ros, but then they killed her off before that. In any case she would not have worked as a "Arya" double....but maybe a Sansa one.