Did GRRM make the Lannisters too strong?

[James Steller]

I understand that the villains of a story need to be daunting for our protagonists to be the underdogs, but it's still a bit strange just how OP the Lannisters are in the story, especially given what TWOIAF revealed about Westeros and its history.

The Lannisters are the wealthiest of all the Great Houses. They command a large army of men who, barring the rule of the Laughing Lion, are more or less loyal to them and nearly always have been. They faced no internal struggles, not even when the Young Wolf invaded the Westerlands, and even with the death of Tywin and the madness of Cersei and her children, the Lannisters are in no danger of losing their lands. There are plenty of Lannister males left alive, and even if they all die, there's a city filled with Lannisters next to Casterly Rock.

And speaking of the Rock, it's apparently three times as high as the Wall, which would put it at over half a kilometre in height. It's filled to the brim with tunnels that contain storerooms, dungeons, treasures, courtyards, gardens, a whole port, and even a godswood. It has never been taken, nor will it ever be taken, since not even the immense power of dragons would have been able to break it.

And above all, they are super wealthy, and are in no danger of losing that wealth. They apparently have so much gold and silver in the Westerlands that they've been mining the same veins for thousands of years, and Casterly Rock still contains "many veins of red and yellow gold which gleam untouched in the stone".

Again, I understand where GRRM is coming from. Tywin Lannister needs to be a very intimidating man, and the Lannisters need to have more wealth than anyone else in the Seven Kingdoms. But that said, I assume that they are to receive their comeuppance just as every other Great House (even the Tyrells) has apparently suffered throughout the story so far. But how can we expect them to realistically be brought down in any way? Casterly Rock has repeatedly been set up as the perfect home base, and there is no end to either the Lannisters' gold or the Lannister gene, even if the main branch is totally wiped out. Does anyone else think GRRM set them up a bit too high and mighty?

[Raisin' Bran]

With two books left, who is to say that the highest and mightiest cannot come crashing down. Lots of stuff can happen.

Though I will probably echo what many others have said about ASOIAF. There are no "good guys" nor "bad guys". So I do not think it is fair to say that GRRM set up the "bad guys" as too powerful. They have their limitations, and their strengths can also be weaknesses. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Why does every Great House need to receive their 'comeuppance'? Surely Tywin, Joffrey, Tyrek, Kevan, Willem, Cleos, Tion, Stafford all dying shows they have suffered. And the likely deaths of Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella in the future. Why do you want some unknown characters to suffer?

 

As for Lannister strength, they are the richest (someone had to be), they have the second, third or fourth largest population and the second largest army most likely down to its previous Lord. There is a possibility that they were not always so military strong under other Lannister Lords/Kings.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

They aren't, weren't and never have been. The Lannisters were incredibly lucky. That's it. Call it plot armor if you like.

And Tywin's focus on propaganda over actual accomplishment made it seem more than it was.

[erra]

I think Tywin is a special case in Westerosi Lords' history:

He wiped out two families that rebelled against him. 

Sanctioned brutally murdering babies. 

Burned and raped the Riverlands when the war started. (Before a Winter)

Ran the kingdoms and basically was more powerful than the King, when he was Hand. 

 

No internal struggle? They're all terrified of Tywin, now that he's out of the picture, all kinds of internal struggles could happen. 

The Rock withstanding dragons? Harrenhall was bigger and the dragons melted its stone walls just the same. 

There are plenty of ways to conquer a besieged castle. Number 1 is just starving them out. They simply will not survive without making peace or fighting. 

Everybody hates the Lannisters. It wouldn't take many houses (at their full strength) to rally together and simply wipe them out. 

 

I never got the impression the Lannisters were too high and mighty ... I often thought they were kind of weak because their power stemmed mostly from one person, while the main heir who could hope to replace Tywin is a King's guard who can't marry or inherit lands (under regular law) and the other heir who even has a twinkling of Tywin's governing genius is a convicted murderer running from the Crown's justice.   

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

17 minutes ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

They aren't, weren't and never have been. The Lannisters were incredibly lucky. That's it. Call it plot armor if you like.

And Tywin's focus on propaganda over actual accomplishment made it seem more than it was.

Tywin was incredibly unlucky. Had his dipshit children kept it in their pants, or at least Robert to have a couple of legitimate children he would not have been in this huge mess.

And I'm not really sure how lucky he is considering other factions get magical direwolves, dragons, shadowbinders and Krakenhorns.

[Nevets]

The Lannisters now are a shell of what they were at the beginning of the story.  At the start, they were easily the most powerful family in Westeros.  Between their wealth, and their numbers and influence at court, they were effectively in charge.  Now, they have the Westerlands, but not much else.  Cersei may be queen in name, but her power has been effectively broken.  Jaime is crippled, and Tyrion a fugitive.  Those in charge are no-names.  Essentially, they're done as a force to be reckoned with.  Sounds like they have already had their comeuppance, and it's not likely to get any better for them.  

[Floki of the Ironborn]

The Lannisters have gotten their comeuppance same as anyone. Robb Stark humiliated them in every battle they fought against him. Tywin was murdered by his own son, and his funeral was a farce due to the horrific stench. His children are tearing apart his legacy, and the Tyrells are literally the only reason they emerged victorious. Stannis and Robb would have defeated the Lannisters between them if the Tyrells hadn't joined in the war on Tywin's side.

As to whether they lose their wealth or lands, I doubt it, but they don't have to. They've already lost their reputation and their power. A lesser branch will take over and concern themselves with maintaining the Westerlands or driving out the Others.

[The Wolves]

3 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The Lannisters now are a shell of what they were at the beginning of the story.  At the start, they were easily the most powerful family in Westeros.  Between their wealth, and their numbers and influence at court, they were effectively in charge.  Now, they have the Westerlands, but not much else.  Cersei may be queen in name, but her power has been effectively broken.  Jaime is crippled, and Tyrion a fugitive.  Those in charge are no-names.  Essentially, they're done as a force to be reckoned with.  Sounds like they have already had their comeuppance, and it's not likely to get any better for them.  

The Lannisters were never all that powerful. The only reason they had any power was because Robert was a cowering little bitch. 

They had the Westerlands at the start of the story. When they war broke out alliances were being made all through Westeros but no one tried to align with the Lannisters till Renly died from a shadow baby. It was luck and plot points alone that have them still in possession of that ugly chair. 

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

I understand that the villains of a story need to be daunting for our protagonists to be the underdogs, but it's still a bit strange just how OP the Lannisters are in the story, especially given what TWOIAF revealed about Westeros and its history.

The Lannisters are the wealthiest of all the Great Houses. They command a large army of men who, barring the rule of the Laughing Lion, are more or less loyal to them and nearly always have been. They faced no internal struggles, not even when the Young Wolf invaded the Westerlands, and even with the death of Tywin and the madness of Cersei and her children, the Lannisters are in no danger of losing their lands. There are plenty of Lannister males left alive, and even if they all die, there's a city filled with Lannisters next to Casterly Rock.

And speaking of the Rock, it's apparently three times as high as the Wall, which would put it at over half a kilometre in height. It's filled to the brim with tunnels that contain storerooms, dungeons, treasures, courtyards, gardens, a whole port, and even a godswood. It has never been taken, nor will it ever be taken, since not even the immense power of dragons would have been able to break it.

And above all, they are super wealthy, and are in no danger of losing that wealth. They apparently have so much gold and silver in the Westerlands that they've been mining the same veins for thousands of years, and Casterly Rock still contains "many veins of red and yellow gold which gleam untouched in the stone".

Again, I understand where GRRM is coming from. Tywin Lannister needs to be a very intimidating man, and the Lannisters need to have more wealth than anyone else in the Seven Kingdoms. But that said, I assume that they are to receive their comeuppance just as every other Great House (even the Tyrells) has apparently suffered throughout the story so far. But how can we expect them to realistically be brought down in any way? Casterly Rock has repeatedly been set up as the perfect home base, and there is no end to either the Lannisters' gold or the Lannister gene, even if the main branch is totally wiped out. Does anyone else think GRRM set them up a bit too high and mighty?

Yeah two things here. First, I would hesitate scaling the Lannister's the "bad guys" 

 

i think where GRRM really shines is in having created a word far more complicated than good guys and bad guys.

 

even some of the most despicable people like Cersei have incredibly redeeming qualities like being a fiercely loving mother. Both Tywin and Jamie who do commit atrocities have complex back stories which makes their motivations make some sense.

 

the other thing that I feel is important is to remember that yes the Lannister's are the richest house and that brings with it power and yes they have a large army but much of this is due directly to Tywin. There is nothing pointing to the Lannisters having had this incredible large power base forever.

 

by sheer force of will and through cunning and ruthlessness Tywin made his house, a great and wealthy house, into the power house it is. Being smart enough to make sure the crown was in debt to him, leveraging his daughters beauty, forcing the idea of family before self, being a brilliant military strategist and being ruthless when needed. No internal conflict from lesser western houses you say? That song about Castamere isn't something from the dawn age, the current lords of the lesser houses remember the Reyens and know why they are gone and even with that huge threat one lesser house goes off and had their daughter marry Robb Stark.

 

i think it is easy to forget that the houses that Tywin wiped out of existence wasn't something that happened  centuries ago but in quite near memory. 

[Makk]

The Lannisters seem pretty screwed to me. Who is actually leading them now? Cersei? They seem to be on the cusp of falling to me, destroyed by themselves.

[Gregor'sBrainTumor]

They're far too busy burning themselves to the ground to continue reaping the harvest Tywin sowed and otherwise good fortune/geography has granted.  As others have mentioned: Cersei and her children are screwed, Jamie is unable to assume Lordship in the unlikely event he survives, and Tyrion is on the other side of the globe at present.  House Lannister is unlikely to be remembered fondly or done any future favors by any other House in Westeros after the series is all said and done, considering their supporting/raising up the likes of the Freys and the Boltons; further enraging Dorne with the death of Oberyn; loosing Gregor and The Brave Companions on the Riverlands; and all things past, present, and future Cersei.  

I question their wealth in regards to how much gold they have on hand versus how much has been spent on the current war and loaned out generally; the Crown is several million dragons in their debt for instance, but I doubt they'll see a copper of that once Targaryen rule is re-established.

[James Steller]

42 minutes ago, Gregor'sBrainTumor said:

They're far too busy burning themselves to the ground to continue reaping the harvest Tywin sowed and otherwise good fortune/geography has granted.  As others have mentioned: Cersei and her children are screwed, Jamie is unable to assume Lordship in the unlikely event he survives, and Tyrion is on the other side of the globe at present.  House Lannister is unlikely to be remembered fondly or done any future favors by any other House in Westeros after the series is all said and done, considering their supporting/raising up the likes of the Freys and the Boltons; further enraging Dorne with the death of Oberyn; loosing Gregor and The Brave Companions on the Riverlands; and all things past, present, and future Cersei.  

I question their wealth in regards to how much gold they have on hand versus how much has been spent on the current war and loaned out generally; the Crown is several million dragons in their debt for instance, but I doubt they'll see a copper of that once Targaryen rule is re-established.

It doesn't matter, apparently. They have enough gold to last them until whenever the Westerosi equivalent of Ragnarok or the Apocalypse occurs. Gold veins so thick that they're still being mined after millennia. Casterly Rock is built to outlast anything that anyone can throw against it. All the main Lannisters are dead? No problem, pick a Lannister from Lannisport to replace them.

House Baratheon, House Tully, and House Stark apparently have nobody outside their main branches to replace them if they get wiped out. House Arryn had to bend over backwards to find an heir to Robert. The Martells haven't had many details disclosed, same with the Greyjoys, but they're not exactly good at multiplying either. Only the Lannisters have filled a city with their descendants and relatives. They've been designed to outlast everyone, even the Tyrells and Hightowers (if we're going by numbers alone).

[thelittledragonthatcould]

13 minutes ago, James Steller said:

House Baratheon, House Tully, and House Stark apparently have nobody outside their main branches to replace them if they get wiped out.

House Stark does, not only do they have the cousins in the Vale but there are also Starks in Barrowton and White Harbor.

There is also likely other Baratheon and Tullys, it is just that we have had no cause to be introduced to them.

13 minutes ago, James Steller said:

 

House Arryn had to bend over backwards to find an heir to Robert.

No they didnt. Harry is the grandson of Jon Arryns sister. Littlefinger makes it sound a lot more complicated than it actually is. After Harry we are told of multiple Arryn branches around the Vale. They are fine.

13 minutes ago, James Steller said:

 

The Martells haven't had many details disclosed,

Doran has three children and we know at least one cousin, Manfrey Martell, who is married. There are likely other Martells after that but there is absoloutly little reason why they need to be introduced.

13 minutes ago, James Steller said:

 

same with the Greyjoys,

Balon, his children, his brothers and we know of at least two Greyjoy cousins mentioned by Asha in ADWD. Greyjoys are also fine.

13 minutes ago, James Steller said:

 

 Only the Lannisters have filled a city with their descendants and relatives.

There are as many named Tyrells as there are Lannisters

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Tyrell#House_Tyrell_at_the_end_of_the_third_century

But of course there are going to be more prominent Lannister and Tyrells, they are the two richest and most powerful Houses. Tywin and Mace can afford to give prestigious and prominent positions to second and third cousins, other Houses just don't have as great resources so naturally their members would fade into obscurity quicker.

13 minutes ago, James Steller said:

 

They've been designed to outlast everyone, even the Tyrells and Hightowers (if we're going by numbers alone).

Not the Tyrells. And I doubt the Hightowers either, we just have spent very little time with Leyton and his 10 children.

[James Steller]

15 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

 

There is also likely other Baratheon and Tullys, it is just that we have had no cause to be introduced to them.

 

We've had a Tully POV for three books and several instances where Edmure, the last male Tully, has his life put in danger. Edmure is threatened with hanging as though that will be the one thing Brynden Tully won't risk losing. True, he doesn't hang, but if there were other Tully relatives around, why not acknowledge them either as a backup (Brynden: Kill Edmure if you're bold enough! It won't matter, my cousin Kermit is in the castle safe and sound!") or as a person to be killed as well to eliminate the Tully threat (Jaime: "Surrender the castle, Edmure, or I'll kill your uncle, your cousin Kermit, and everyone else in Riverrun", or Jaime: "Even if we kill the Blackfish and Edmure, we need to find Kermit Tully so he doesn't avenge them by rallying the riverlords to the trout banner"). You'd think they would have brought up other Tullys by now if they existed.

Same with the Baratheons. Cersei goes out of her way to wipe out Robert's seed. Stannis has one daughter, and admittedly he's intent on making her Queen, but if there's a perfectly healthy Baratheon cousin, why not find him/her and keep them safe on Dragonstone/Storm's End/ The Wall/ by Stannis' side?

[Gregor'sBrainTumor]

On the subject of there being Lannisters left over: there may indeed be plenty left to choose from, but that's sort of like saying after the top generals in an army have been killed and all colenols, majors, and others groomed for high command have been wiped out, there are still plenty of privates out there to put on the uniform and fill the gaps in the roster right away.  Technically correct, but it's not likely to play out very well when it happens. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just now, James Steller said:

We've had a Tully POV for three books and several instances where Edmure, the last male Tully, has his life put in danger.

Brynden?

And many Lords and heirs put their lives in danger, it is a pretty common pastime in Westeros.

Tully line of succession from the start of the series: Hoster, Edmure, Cat, Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya, Lysa, Robin, Brynden.

There has simply been no need to mention any cousins as they were covered for heirs up until they lost their lands when such a conversation became moot.

Just now, James Steller said:

 

You'd think they would have brought up other Tullys by now if they existed.

Why? They are immaterial to the story. We have reason to know Cat's father, brother and uncle we don't really need to meet her second or third cousins.

Just now, James Steller said:

Same with the Baratheons. Cersei goes out of her way to wipe out Robert's seed. Stannis has one daughter, and admittedly he's intent on making her Queen, but if there's a perfectly healthy Baratheon cousin, why not find him/her and keep them safe on Dragonstone/Storm's End/ The Wall/ by Stannis' side?

Same with the Tullys. At the start of the series the succession line for the Baratheons was as follows: Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Stannis, Shireen, Renly.

Legally Tommen is the Head of House Baratheon and his sister his heir. There has been little reason for them to bring up second or third cousins. Once one or the other kick the bucket I bet we will see some discussion about it but there was certainly no need to speculate about it in the first three books while Joffrey lived.

Consider Harry the Heir. Jon died before the very first chapter began yet there was no mention of Robin's heir for the Vale till AFFC.

[Kaibaman]

The way I see it at the start of the book the Lannister's immense power came from Tywin's ambitiousness in building his family up to become so powerful in the first place. The fact is none of the other high lords were as focused on continuously increasing their family's political and military strength like Tywin did. And since he was no longer a Hand, I suppose he had nothing better to do than to building up the strength of the Westerlands. So it shouldn't be a surprise that the Lannisters were on top at the start of the book.

[Lion of the West]

3 hours ago, Gregor'sBrainTumor said:

They're far too busy burning themselves to the ground to continue reaping the harvest Tywin sowed and otherwise good fortune/geography has granted.  As others have mentioned: Cersei and her children are screwed, Jamie is unable to assume Lordship in the unlikely event he survives, and Tyrion is on the other side of the globe at present.  House Lannister is unlikely to be remembered fondly or done any future favors by any other House in Westeros after the series is all said and done, considering their supporting/raising up the likes of the Freys and the Boltons; further enraging Dorne with the death of Oberyn; loosing Gregor and The Brave Companions on the Riverlands; and all things past, present, and future Cersei.  

I question their wealth in regards to how much gold they have on hand versus how much has been spent on the current war and loaned out generally; the Crown is several million dragons in their debt for instance, but I doubt they'll see a copper of that once Targaryen rule is re-established.

The Lannisters are in the pitch but unlike many other Houses, they have been putting their enemies in the ground rather than the other way around, and they are on of the few which actually maintains alliances and has a place at the royal court. How they and the Tyrells will deal with the Targaryens is something that remains to be seen, but so far the Lannisters are in a better position than anyone who has ever faced them.

If the Targaryen rule is reestablished it all depends on the factors. If the Lannisters supports the winning side in the combing Second Dance then odds are that they'll come back into the good grace of the Dragon given that all the Lannisters who ever warred with the Dragon are dead or seems to be heading for it.

[ForTheNorth]

The Lannister were never that strong before Tywin. They were very nearly usurped. Wealth doesn't equal military strength. Indian Shahs could probably have bought the United Kingdom in the 1700's. Didn't stop them from losing Wars to a trading company. Westermen don't seem to make the best warriors either. In terms of military prowess even the Iron born have better feats 

 

Every one of the kingdoms have their strengths and weaknesses I think.