The Starks and their future mistakes

[Les Météores D]

This is a wild speculation based on nothing but a gut feeling and the fact that this episode showed us Bran screwing up big time, although unwillingly. In this same episode the seeds have been planted for Arya and Sansa as well imo. I'm not on board yet that the mark left on Bran's arm will cause the Wall to fall but it's an interesting idea... terrible if that's the case.

We all suspect that Arya's relation with the FM isn't going to end up smoothly, to say the least, and I have no doubt she'll escape them this season only to have them getting back at her later (perhaps at the very end) in an unpleasant way for her or those close to her.

Sansa wants to take WF and the North back her way, by trying to outsmart LF. She will never betray Jon but her way will cost the North at lot and it won't be prepared when the WW steamroll through the land.

(Note that I'm one of those who believe Tyrion, Dany and Jon will take drastic and controversial actions in the books willingly, maybe less in the show because whitewashing and such)

[Pile-O-Starks]

4 hours ago, Les Météores D said:

This is a wild speculation based on nothing but a gut feeling and the fact that this episode showed us Bran screwing up big time, although unwillingly. In this same episode the seeds have been planted for Arya and Sansa as well imo. I'm not on board yet that the mark left on Bran's arm will cause the Wall to fall but it's an interesting idea... terrible if that's the case.

We all suspect that Arya's relation with the FM isn't going to end up smoothly, to say the least, and I have no doubt she'll escape them this season only to have them getting back at her later (perhaps at the very end) in an unpleasant way for her or those close to her.

Sansa wants to take WF and the North back her way, by trying to outsmart LF. She will never betray Jon but her way will cost the North at lot and it won't be prepared when the WW steamroll through the land.

(Note that I'm one of those who believe Tyrion, Dany and Jon will take drastic and controversial actions in the books willingly, maybe less in the show because whitewashing and such)

Arya will probably leave the faceless men, but it would be out of character for them to seek revenge. That's kind of the whole point of them; killing without reason or emotion to serve the many-faced God. Jaquen says a face will be added to the wall one way or another, implying that it will be the actress' face or Arya's, but maybe Arya provides a different face (easy to guess who) and splits, and that satisfies the many-faced god. I also think it's a possibility that she actually becomes no one, but then later on something shocks her out of it. Either way, I hope she gets back to Westeros soon. The Arya-in-Braavos story is very tired.

I agree that Sansa is about to botch everything. She claims to not trust LF and even wants him dead, but she believes him when he tells her the Blackfish has an army for her? To paraphrase Sansa; she's either an idiot or a liar (and has something else up her sleeve).

[LadyAlisande]

I'm not on board the Sansa-bashing train. I don't think she necessarily made a mistake in not telling Jon about Littlefinger. For very personal reasons, she didn't want to tell the whole story that she met with him, what they discussed, and that he offered the Vale troops and she refused. What if Jon wanted to use them? It was easier for Sansa to not have to answer questions about her complex relationship with Littlefinger or the other things they discussed. 

Does she totally respect and trust Jon? Maybe not. But after what she has been through, it's amazing that she can trust even Brienne. Cut Sansa some slack, she will not betray Jon and she isn't manipulating anyone to some nefarious end. She wants her home and security back. And she wants vengeance on the people who have hurt her family. She and Jon might not be 100% on the same page but they have more common interests than not.

Arya on the other hand, I just don't get why she would even want to be a Faceless Man. You'd think she could find other ways to get training to become an effective assassin, without having to give up the REASONS she wants to be one in the first place. Yet she keeps doubling down. I just hope when she does eventually move on, it's after she has actually learned some useful things, and also that they don't come after her.

And Bran better do something to redeem himself for all those who have sacrificed. If he ends up responsible for the fall of the Wall, I'm going to be annoyed. 
 

[Challenger1978]

40 minutes ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

Arya will probably leave the faceless men, but it would be out of character for them to seek revenge. That's kind of the whole point of them; killing without reason or emotion to serve the many-faced God. Jaquen says a face will be added to the wall one way or another, implying that it will be the actress' face or Arya's, but maybe Arya provides a different face (easy to guess who) and splits, and that satisfies the many-faced god. I also think it's a possibility that she actually becomes no one, but then later on something shocks her out of it. Either way, I hope she gets back to Westeros soon. The Arya-in-Braavos story is very tired.

I agree that Sansa is about to botch everything. She claims to not trust LF and even wants him dead, but she believes him when he tells her the Blackfish has an army for her? To paraphrase Sansa; she's either an idiot or a liar (and has something else up her sleeve).

I've always thought that Arya will one day meet up with Nymira and her wolf pack and that is what will snap her out of being no one.

[Les Météores D]

2 hours ago, LadyAlisande said:

I'm not on board the Sansa-bashing train.  
 

You make good points but I'm not going to argue them because that accusation, frankly speaking, tires me to no end. I'm not bashing Sansa, she's an interesting character, I'm just speculating about a possible direction the plot might take.

[Les Météores D]

2 hours ago, Pile-O-Starks said:

Arya will probably leave the faceless men, but it would be out of character for them to seek revenge. That's kind of the whole point of them; killing without reason or emotion to serve the many-faced God. Jaquen says a face will be added to the wall one way or another, implying that it will be the actress' face or Arya's, but maybe Arya provides a different face (easy to guess who) and splits, and that satisfies the many-faced god. I also think it's a possibility that she actually becomes no one, but then later on something shocks her out of it. Either way, I hope she gets back to Westeros soon. The Arya-in-Braavos story is very tired.

Yeah they could split without too much damage but what happened with Trant last season doesn't bode well I fear. Killing the Waif will have consequences. 

[throney]

I agree about Sansa but only if her lie comes out when it's too late. If it comes out before she'll be forced to eat humble pie and probably be forced of the war council, dunno. The problem for I think is that she's sent Brienne away , the only other person who could corroborate her side of the story. It could be bad for her and everyone else.

With Arya I can't see that she would just be able to go without any repercussions. It can't be a simple as saying: thanks for everything you taught me but I'm going now. I don't want to be no one. Oh and by the way I've killed the waif so you have her face for the wall, so you don't need to come after me ever again. See ya.

Bran, I really don't know. It wasn't intentional, it was a pretty stressful situation and he wasn't fully aware. But Summer died, I know the show doesn't respect the direwolves but that's a high price to pay. 

[HellasLEAF]

I am very surprised you guys think Sansa has this distrust of Jon.

So she held back this minor info.  I doubt that factors much into their relationship going forward.  Just like the bastard mention.  It's a fact.  It's re-establishing their former roles.  I guess reminding us. 

She also made him that coat with the Stark crest.  Like her fathers she said.  That's all I needed.  

These guys are on the same team and Sansa will be fine. 

[Smoke317]

31 minutes ago, HellasLEAF said:

I am very surprised you guys think Sansa has this distrust of Jon.

So she held back this minor info.  I doubt that factors much into their relationship going forward.  Just like the bastard mention.  It's a fact.  It's re-establishing their former roles.  I guess reminding us. 

She also made him that coat with the Stark crest.  Like her fathers she said.  That's all I needed.  

These guys are on the same team and Sansa will be fine. 

An army bigger than probably all the men Jon currently has combined is definitely not minor info when you're about to head into battle. I think it will factor in hugely because the holding back of this info and these soldiers will allow Jon's troops to be slaughtered because they are outnumbered. Which will mean less men to fight in the real war that's coming and that's the war vs the white walkers. And the coat she made was only manipulation. She needs Jon to look the part to help her secure the forces she needs. You notice how touched he was by the gesture and did you also notice how she just basically played it like "no problem" and kept it moving.  I can't wait to see her reaction when the Northern lords say bastard or not, Jon is our King in the North. I bet Sansa will think LF was right and immediately send word to him to be on standby.  Sansa is a summer girl and winter is coming. I can't wait to see Arya role up to Winterfell with Nymeria at her side and a massive Wolfpack behind her. Ghost will run out and greet them and then the Starks will be ready to face the winter. They won't be with Sansa and by proxy LF running things.  The time for southern game playing is over. It's time to look at the big picture because Winter is Coming. 

[RoamingRonin]

33 minutes ago, HellasLEAF said:

I am very surprised you guys think Sansa has this distrust of Jon.

So she held back this minor info.  I doubt that factors much into their relationship going forward.  Just like the bastard mention.  It's a fact.  It's re-establishing their former roles.  I guess reminding us. 

She also made him that coat with the Stark crest.  Like her fathers she said.  That's all I needed.  

These guys are on the same team and Sansa will be fine. 

The problem is that she let Littlefinger into her head. He sowed a seed of doubt in her mind which caused her to send her only sworn sword off on a mission that could prove futile at best, fatal at worst. I'm not bashing her but it was disappointing to see her so easily swayed.

[Asma Ben Hamouda]

is this a thread for bashing Sansa? I swear I found hilarious that that every character got the benefit of the doubt and only sansa got the fast judgement from some viewers, we don't know even the true reason why sansa has lied to jon

She made a gift for Jon to make him a duplicate image of their father, she sees Ned in Jon

[Les Météores D]

My my. Ok I get it... Sansa can't be criticized and we can't speculate about her and some of her decisions. Bran and Arya are fair game I suppose.

I had hope this debate could be a bit more mature because, as mentioned in the op, what struck me was that those scenes were in an episode where Bran did a huge mistake out of inexperience. I do believe Sansa hasn't all the tools, yet, to outsmart LF (neither does she in the books).

Never mind Sophie and the show-runners have confirmed she doesn't trust entirely Jon (which isn't a bad thing imo considering what she's been through.)

[Xcorpyo001]

5 hours ago, Asma Ben Hamouda said:

She made a gift for Jon to make him a duplicate image of their father, she sees Ned in Jon

Of course she does, she said so herself. She sees as much Ned in Jon as Roose in Ramsay. Oh, how I love her comparisons. She has a gift for words.

[WolfOfWinter]

She said Jon was just as much Ned's son as Ramsay was Roose's. I think the point was that Ramsay, a bastard albeit a legitimate one, could raise an army and have men following him, so Jon as a bastard son would be able to as well. I didn't see anything wrong with that comparison. 

As for her turning LF away; I wouldn't have trusted him not to stab me and my men in the back with his army on the battlefield either, especially since she knows better than anyone how treacherous and manipulative he really is, which is why it was frustrating when she let herself be manipulated as well. I don't think her decision will cost the North much, though, since LF will undoubtedly turn up with an army anyway (there's also a shot of Sansa and LF meeting up again in the trailer).

I'm not sure Arya deciding the FM isn't for her counts as a mistake. It might put a target on her back, but she doens't have much of a choice, since it's either to become no one or become herself again. I'm curious if news will reach Braavos about the Starks gathering an army to retake their home. 

I'm totally on board with the theory that Bran will cause the Wall to fall, but in his case, I think he's been let down by his mentor who didn't prepare him enough. I don't blame him much. I think BR knew all along this would transpire, since hedidn't seem surprised to discover that the NK had touched Bran. BR told Bran that he'd waited a thousand years for him to be born, and I think the Night's King was doing the same. 

[Lord Freddy Blackfyre]

The Vale is not Littlefinger army, the reason they'd go to the war in the north is to help the Starks and Lord Arryn's cousins.

[tjmarsh]

There will be a huge schism between Sansa and Jon once we get to Riverrun. I am thinking, in the show, Blackfish will have Robb's will naming Jon King Of The North. Sansa is in "get hers" mode and the army from Vale will seem like a pretty useful tool in a short amount of time. She isn't finished with Littlefinger yet!

[Philpenn]

Rob's will never happened on the show did it?  Would be odd if a major thing like that comes to fruition having never been acknowledged before.

[Slaysman]

On 5/25/2016 at 11:39 PM, Smoke317 said:

An army bigger than probably all the men Jon currently has combined is definitely not minor info when you're about to head into battle. I think it will factor in hugely because the holding back of this info and these soldiers will allow Jon's troops to be slaughtered because they are outnumbered. Which will mean less men to fight in the real war that's coming and that's the war vs the white walkers. And the coat she made was only manipulation. She needs Jon to look the part to help her secure the forces she needs. You notice how touched he was by the gesture and did you also notice how she just basically played it like "no problem" and kept it moving.  I can't wait to see her reaction when the Northern lords say bastard or not, Jon is our King in the North. I bet Sansa will think LF was right and immediately send word to him to be on standby.  Sansa is a summer girl and winter is coming. I can't wait to see Arya role up to Winterfell with Nymeria at her side and a massive Wolfpack behind her. Ghost will run out and greet them and then the Starks will be ready to face the winter. They won't be with Sansa and by proxy LF running things.  The time for southern game playing is over. It's time to look at the big picture because Winter is Coming. 

I agree, information on a large military force is not a minor detail. Especially when you just convinced your brother (half or not a sibling is a sibling) to march on Winterfell. 2000 wildlings is not a bad start, but with winter approaching this could save some serious time and bring some clout to the negotiating table with the northern lords whom they hope to get support from.