Does Harry the Heir even matter.

[House Beaudreau]

Littlefinger makes that huge speech about how Harry the heir is next in line for the Vale. Yea if he marries Sansa they have a nice little power couple. But what we do know about Westeros is that succession is messy. Harry's grandmother was Jon Arryn's Sister I think. We have Cousin branches of House Arryn like the Gulltown Arryns who no doubt would challenge in succession if Sweet Robin were to die. The one big problem is the Sweet Robin is still alive and it seems that his condition has improve remarkably since Lysa died.     

[Boarsbane]

The line of succession isn't messy, Harry is clearly the heir hence the nickname. There is no indication that the lesser Arryn branches would challenge his claim and if they did they'd have no support because they are looked down on by most lords it seems. Sweetrobin may not die, but he's not having a child anytime soon, and he is a sickly weakling, so Harry's future prospects look pretty good.

[Leonardo]

They may challenge, but who supports them? Harry has the Waynwoods off the bat; House Royce would have a good possiility for honor's sake and likely a 100% chance under Yohn. 

 

They have money but unless they've been laying the groundwork like Harry and the Waynwoods have there's not much point since they seem to be very distantly related.

[Walda]

Yes, and while I don't know for sure the Westeros attitude to bigamy, it does seem the faith of the Seven at least would see a Harry-Sansa wedding as just that, especially if she comes out for it dressed in a Direwolf wedding cape. There would need to be a consultation with the High Septon, to set aside her first marriage before her second, at the very least. And this High Septon isn't likely to let such a golden opportunity pass him by. 

Harry might like to claim Sansa's birthright well enough, although he seems to tire of beautiful girls easily enough. It is easy to get used to a girl's beauty when you see her every day.

In a place where gender relationships have a huge societal power imbalance (like in Westeros), one would hope for more for Sansa than a husband who enjoyed the wealth and connexions and esteem and jealousy that came to him by marriage, but also likes to spend her money and sleep with other girls without having to account to her former protectors or lose the wealth, jobs and status he gathers through them via her.

That the first thing we are told of him is his reputation for dumping one pretty commoner for another, makes me uneasy. Petyr Baelish then goes on to describe him as "very gallant, I am told"(AFfC, Ch.41 Alayne II), which, given the source and the information that he chose to precede it with, seems to mean that Harry is another monster with a pretty face. (The first mention of the word gallant was from Sansa “What did you think of Prince Joff, sister? He’s very gallant, don’t you think?”(AGoT, Ch.07 Arya I) and the first thing Petyr Baelish knew of Sansa was that she was a sucker for a gallant knight with a pretty face.)

Spoiler

Spoilers for Winds of Winter

Spoiler

In the Alayne chapter of Winds of Winter, Sansa's penchant for gallantry, and for love at first sight, is emphasised again, these thoughts underscored with  "A comely monster, that’s what he was.", a sentence that could have Harry as the subject or Joffrey, depending on if you read it as referring to subject of the paragraph, or of the previous sentence.

We learn that little Robin Arryn knows Harry is a threat to him, and Ser Roland's treatment of Ser Wallace re-enforces the 'good looking and articulate young men are monsters, ordinary old men with flaws make better husbands for beautiful teenage girls' argument that GRRM has prosecuted unfailingly throughout the books.

Lothar Brune has a very low opinion of Harry's abilities as a knight, and Harry himself starts negging in a way that doesn't have a shred of gallantry, or even (as Lady Waynwood reminds him) common courtesy. Soon enough, we learn that Petyr Baelish is also aware that Harry is really just an upjumped squire. The chapter ends with Alyane agreeing to dance with him after all,  and the pair of them getting a few laughs at the expense of his former and current baby-mamas.

One wonders how his previous relationships started - those women were only commoners, not bastards, and apparently the daughters of powerful wealthy men.  Who knows but they were as clever as Sansa, too.

I know some people see this as Sansa showing her 'agency', but honestly, it seems to me that she is being Petyr's puppet and Harry has nothing to offer her. For Petyr, he is a handy insurance policy in the instance that SweetRobin dies, and he remains able to claim Sansa as his daughter somehow,  but that doesn't seem to be his plan, and  this guy hasn't the strength or the smarts to protect Sansa, not in arms and not by diplomacy. He is insubstantial, and seems to have spent his life collecting enemies.

He isn't going to win Winterfell back from the Boltons for her, and I'm not at all sure the knights of the Vale will fall in behind him if SweetRobin were to die in suspicious circumstances shortly after the Lord Protector became his heir's goodfather. Only how is Petyr going to be able to claim any relationship with Harry after Sansa walks into the Godswood in a Direwolf cloak? 

Whatever Petyr's real plan is, I'm sure its not this ill thought out jumble of bullshit. It would not surprise me is Petyr had a streak of vengeance, if he wanted Sansa to be tortured and abandoned as a soiled bastard, traitor, etc. etc. - but while she can be used as a means to gain Winterfell (the way Bolton used Reek), he will at least keep her under his protection. I suppose if he could get a heir for Harry the heir within the year, he wouldn't need any of them to keep the Eyrie, but he'd want to have bound the Lords Declarant firmly to him by the time he knocked off Harry. 

 

Still, I don't think we need be too concerned about Harrold Hardying's inheritance - unless the ass dies at the tourney or in the field before he has an heir. Then having a family tree that more closely resembles a bowl of spaghetti would be problematical. But he is young, healthy, fertile, the Vale is not at war - if he can sire a legitimate child, the succession of the vale is secure (although I don't quite see how Sansa and Petyr Baelish are secure when her true identity and marital status are known).

I also strongly suspect that SweetRobin and his mother were being slowly poisoned (something that made her miscarry, and was transmitted through breast milk to make them both have patchy, puffy, pale skin, and irascible tempers, paranoid and unbalanced...although they both have a lot of inbred Targaryen blood, too, so the condition could be congenital rather than poison.)

It is clear that Coleman doesn't have Mirri Maz Duur's understanding of the medicines he is giving SweetRobin. He seems to have attempted to do his best by Jon Arryn in his last illness, so I assume he has done his best by Lysa and SweetRobin too, but it wouldn't surprise me if he had been poisoning her by accident. His methods for managing SweetRobin's fits seem to be getting more and more experimental, and his willingness to co-operate with Petyr Baelish against his Lord's best interest is disturbing.  If SweetRobin has decided to stop swallowing whatever ingestibles he gets from Maester Coleman, I think he would do better than if he didn't.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think the plan is for Sansa to marry Harry, to get her pregnant as soon as possible and to get Robert Arryn dead as quickly as possible after that. And I suspect Harry is lined up for a quick death thereafter too. That leaves Sansa as the mother of the Vale's only heir.

Now here's where it gets darker. I think Littlefinger's true plan is that he gets Sansa pregnant, but that everyone believes that it was Harry. Once the remainder of the plan is then executed, Littlefinger - the upjumped commoner who was not good enough for Catelyn's hand in marriage - ends up as the father of the new heir to the Vale, and potentially to the Riverlands and the North as well. (He doesn't know that Bran or Rickon is alive, or about Robb's will).

Boy wouldn't he love that.

Of course, it won't end up that way, with Sansa eventually going Darth Vader on her Palpatine - but I think that is the plan he has in mind.

[Hangover of the Morning]

21 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I think the plan is for Sansa to marry Harry, to get her pregnant as soon as possible and to get Robert Arryn dead as quickly as possible after that. And I suspect Harry is lined up for a quick death thereafter too. That leaves Sansa as the mother of the Vale's only heir.

Now here's where it gets darker. I think Littlefinger's true plan is that he gets Sansa pregnant, but that everyone believes that it was Harry. Once the remainder of the plan is then executed, Littlefinger - the upjumped commoner who was not good enough for Catelyn's hand in marriage - ends up as the father of the new heir to the Vale, and potentially to the Riverlands and the North as well. (He doesn't know that Bran or Rickon is alive, or about Robb's will).

That's how I see it too. 

Mildly OT question: Does Sansa realise that Littlefinger intends to kill Sweet Robin? I mean, how could she not. The fact that he wants to marry her to Harry the Heir is a dead giveaway. Does she show some moral concern over that?  Harry is essentially a nobody as long as Sweet Robin lives and there's no way that LF would go into all that trouble to marry her to him just on the off chance that Harry might end up the Lord of the Vale, if he's super lucky. 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 minute ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

That's how I see it too. 

Mildly OT question: Does Sansa realise that Littlefinger intends to kill Sweet Robin? I mean, how could she not. The fact that he wants to marry her to Harry the Heir is a dead giveaway. Does she show some moral concern over that?  Harry is essentially a nobody as long as Sweet Robin lives and there's no way that LF would go into all that trouble to marry her to him just on the off chance that Harry might end up the Lord of the Vale, if he's super lucky. 

 

Sansa's arc is not to turn into some "good person". She is the antagonist within the Stark family. That was Martin's intention, at least, within his original draft.

In any case, while she will no doubt gain increasing agency over her life, and even end up helping the North in various ways, this will not be by being a "good person". She will probably be complicit in killing Robert Arryn, rationalizing it in her own mind.

 

[CJ McLannister]

8 hours ago, House Beaudreau said:

The one big problem is the Sweet Robin is still alive and it seems that his condition has improve remarkably since Lysa died.     

I don't think his condition has actually improved at all.  He's being drugged with sweetsleep which is known to be deadly if overused.

That doesn't mean he's going to die any time soon.  Plans rarely work out in Westeros.

[Fox of House McCloud]

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Now here's where it gets darker. I think Littlefinger's true plan is that he gets Sansa pregnant, but that everyone believes that it was Harry. Once the remainder of the plan is then executed, Littlefinger - the upjumped commoner who was not good enough for Catelyn's hand in marriage - ends up as the father of the new heir to the Vale, and potentially to the Riverlands and the North as well. (He doesn't know that Bran or Rickon is alive, or about Robb's will).

An interesting idea, but Littlefinger doesn't strike me as a character who would be content with his own private joke, so to speak (in this case, that Harry's 'son' is actually Littlefinger's). He wouldn't be able to reveal this, because if he did, his son wouldn't inherit and Sansa would probably be forcibly removed from power.

Unless you think Littlefinger would marry Sansa following Harry's death, similar to what happened with Lysa/Jon?

[the Scorpion Knight]

11 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

The line of succession isn't messy, Harry is clearly the heir hence the nickname. There is no indication that the lesser Arryn branches would challenge his claim and if they did they'd have no support because they are looked down on by most lords it seems. Sweetrobin may not die, but he's not having a child anytime soon, and he is a sickly weakling, so Harry's future prospects look pretty good.

but there 's according to many Timmet son of Timmet has a better claim. And he  has two (or rather)  assets over harry: competence, he's nobodys puppet, and the little fact that it pacifies the vale lords with the mountain clans 

[Boarsbane]

5 minutes ago, the Scorpion Knight said:

but there 's according to many Timmet son of Timmet has a better claim. And he  has two (or rather)  assets over harry: competence, he's nobodys puppet, and the little fact that it pacifies the vale lords with the mountain clans 

To start, assuming he is the son of the kidnapped Arryn woman I find it hard to believe anyone would consider him legitimate regardless of whether the Mountain Clans have the same marriage practices. On top of that he is a savage and a brute, his kind are despised by the Lords of the Vale and the Lords of the Vale will have more say in who rules next than the Clans. Harry isn't really a puppet and though Timett is clearly more intimidating and vicious than Harry it doesn't make him more competent. I don't think the Lord's of the Vale want peace with the Clans, especially if it means to submitting to one of them.

[House Beaudreau]

4 hours ago, CJ McLannister said:

I don't think his condition has actually improved at all.  He's being drugged with sweetsleep which is known to be deadly if overused.

That doesn't mean he's going to die any time soon.  Plans rarely work out in Westeros.

We learn through out the books that a few grains of sweetsleep can calm a mans nerves or stop a pounding heart. One pinch will produce a dreamless sleep and three pinches will produce a sleep that never ends. Maester Colemen tells us that sweetsleep doesn't leave the flesh for some time cause a build up and making even small doses dangerous overtime. 

Before Sweet Robin makes his decent down the mountain he is given a pinch and then another pinch before meeting the lords of the Vale plus he had one three days before. ONE PINCH is supposed to make you Sleep for hours let alone two in one day but Robin doesn't sleep he makes it down the mountain and to the feast as well. Which makes me believe that he has built up some type of Immunity to the drug which makes sense if hes using for a long time. Or Coleman isn't actually dosing him and hes just creating some placebo effect on Robin. 

Littlefinger is pretty firm with coleman that he wants Robin to be dosed with sweetsleep. I think Littlefinger could be trying to poison Robin and blame it on coleman. 

Once Sweet Robin gets down the moutain his Shaking fits seem to stop, Is it possible that his condition has something to do with the Altitude.  

[CJ McLannister]

12 minutes ago, House Beaudreau said:

Once Sweet Robin gets down the moutain his Shaking fits seem to stop, Is it possible that his condition has something to do with the Altitude.  

Do we see him again at the bottom?  I think Petyr is definitely trying to poison him with the sweetsleep.  But he doesn't want it to happen too quickly.

[House Beaudreau]

10 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

Do we see him again at the bottom?  I think Petyr is definitely trying to poison him with the sweetsleep.  But he doesn't want it to happen too quickly.

In the winds of winter preview chapter that GRRM released on his website.  

[Harry Baratheon]

I guess I don't understand Littlefinger's plan - how does he plan to deal with the consequences of Sansa being a traitor and suspected of killing the king?  For Harry to even consider marrying her, her identity would have to be revealed…he's not going to marry the bastard of a minor lord, as heir to the Vale.  But the daughter of Eddard Stark is wanted for murder, if he married her, that would put the Vale against the Iron Throne - how does Baelish plan to deal with that?

[CJ McLannister]

Presumably with the combined strength of the North, the Vale and the Riverlands.  Or he'll figure out a way to blame somebody else.  Maybe the Tyrells.  Or Dorne.

[Nissa]

10 hours ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

That's how I see it too. 

Mildly OT question: Does Sansa realise that Littlefinger intends to kill Sweet Robin? I mean, how could she not. The fact that he wants to marry her to Harry the Heir is a dead giveaway. Does she show some moral concern over that?  Harry is essentially a nobody as long as Sweet Robin lives and there's no way that LF would go into all that trouble to marry her to him just on the off chance that Harry might end up the Lord of the Vale, if he's super lucky. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Sansa's arc is not to turn into some "good person". She is the antagonist within the Stark family. That was Martin's intention, at least, within his original draft.

In any case, while she will no doubt gain increasing agency over her life, and even end up helping the North in various ways, this will not be by being a "good person". She will probably be complicit in killing Robert Arryn, rationalizing it in her own mind.

 

I agree but there is the possibility that she assumes robin will not live a long life. He does have extreme fits even after Lysa is gone. She could just be innocent of it. At the same time however she's not overly fond of him. One of the only redeeming qualities she sees in him is his hair. I think we need further Sansa POVs to determine which side of the "line" she's on when it comes to plotting his death.

[norwaywolf123]

1 hour ago, the Scorpion Knight said:

but there 's according to many Timmet son of Timmet has a better claim. And he  has two (or rather)  assets over harry: competence, he's nobodys puppet, and the little fact that it pacifies the vale lords with the mountain clans 

a godd clansman is a dead clansman

Long live the Seven!

[norwaywolf123]

39 minutes ago, Tanka Rae said:

I guess I don't understand Littlefinger's plan - how does he plan to deal with the consequences of Sansa being a traitor and suspected of killing the king?  For Harry to even consider marrying her, her identity would have to be revealed…he's not going to marry the bastard of a minor lord, as heir to the Vale.  But the daughter of Eddard Stark is wanted for murder, if he married her, that would put the Vale against the Iron Throne - how does Baelish plan to deal with that?

sopport fAegon or Dany 

i dont think Sweetrobin will die, i think he will join Dany Visenya style

[Fox of House McCloud]

4 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

sopport fAegon or Dany 

i dont think Sweetrobin will die, i think he will join Dany Visenya style

Sweetrobin is far too sheltered and dependent on Littlefinger/Alayne to do anything on his own, really.