The Reeds, the Children of the Forest, the Original Promise of Ice and Fire, and how it all leads to Jon Snow

[The God of Death]

From A Clash of Kings:

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"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater. Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you." — Jojen & Meera

"I swear it by earth and water." — Jojen

"I swear it by bronze and iron." — Meera

"We swear it by ice and fire." — Jojen & Meera

It suddenly struck me... What if these words, and this oath, originated from something long ago. From something ages and ages ago, in fact:

The Pact between the children of the forest and the First Men.

In the Dawn Age - when man first arrived on the continent of Westeros - men began to cut down the sacred weirwood trees, thus provoking the children of the forest, and war was waged for thousands of years. Until finally a pact of peace was made on the island within the Gods Eye - which would become known as the Isle of Faces, after faces were carved into the weirwoods so that the Gods could bear witness to this pact. 

The words of Jojen and Meera sound as if they originate from something ancient, and they seem to match well with what a pact between the children of the forest and the First Men might have sounded like.

• "I swear it by earth and water." - This sounds like the children of the forest, whose strength comes from nature.
• "I swear it by bronze and iron." - This sounds like men, whose strength comes from their tools.
•  "We swear it by ice and fire." - A promise made by both men and the children of the forest.

The Reeds have retained knowledge held by no other House in Westeros. Some have even speculated that the reason the crannogmen are short in stature is because the blood of the children of the forest runs through their veins. If anyone knows about the nature of the ancient pact, it would be the Reeds.

Interestingly, we have never learned the words of House Reed, and that's unusual for such a prominent house in the story. I believe the words of their House may relate to ice and fire. Perhaps something like: Sworn by Ice and Fire, or simply Ice and Fire.

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While I'm on this subject, I would like to point out other connections between the Reeds, the Isle of Faces, and ice and fire.

According to Meera, in the year of the false spring, a crannogman - almost certainly Howland Reed - traveled to the Isle of Faces, and spent some time there before traveling to the Tournament of Harrenhal.

The Knight of the Laughing Tree - almost certainly Lyanna Stark - wears the sigil of a laughing weirwood tree, and defends the honor of Howland Reed.

Also at the Tournament of Harrenhal, Lyanna weeps when she hears Rhaegar play a sad and beautiful song. I believe that this song may have been the Song of Ice and Fire.

After Rhaegar discovers Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, they fall in love. Some have speculated that during the time of their disappearance, they elope to the Isle of Faces. This would make sense for several reasons. 

• Polygamy has a precedent in the Targaryen line. 
•  Lyanna likely would have insisted on their marriage taking place in sight of the Old Gods. 
• The Isle of Faces is very close to the place they fell in love - Harrenhal, which is set on the north shore of the Gods Eye. The Isle of Faces is a place that gives them a chance to wed in secret.
• Their marriage would mean that Lyanna could birth a legitimate Targaryen heir. 

It all makes sense - Lyanna (ice) and Rhaegar (fire) marrying in the sight of the Old Gods on the Isle of Faces, where 10,000 years earlier, a pact of ice and fire had been made. Rhaegar always knew that he must have a third child. 

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"He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." — Rhaegar Targaryen

As a side note here - as the only other person in the world (aside from Eddard) who knew the true identity of Jon Snow, Howland Reed may have sworn by ice and fire to keep Jon's secret.

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One more thought on all of this: It's apparent that many of the greatest secrets of A Song of Ice and Fire are being held within the Isle of Faces.

Just think about the Isle of Faces:

• It has somehow gone unconquered for the entire history of Westeros, which includes more than 12,000 years of history, including the arrival of the First Men, the Andal invasion, and the Targaryen invasion.
• Ever since the pact between the children of the forest and the First Men, the Isle of Faces has been protected by the sacred order of Green Men. The order of the Green Men still persists and is *thousands of years older than the Night's Watch*.
• If the cave of the three-eyed crow should fall, the Isle of Faces may be the last bastion of the children of the forest.
• Its extensive network of weirwood trees left undisturbed for all time means that the entire history of the Isle of Faces has been recorded in the sight of the Old Gods. Not only is there much to learn, but Bran actually may be able to unlock some of its greatest secrets through the ages.

The Isle of Faces certainly demands our attention.

[Great Gods' Guinness]

Interesting stuff, God of Death! I'm looking forward to the thread discussion!

[Scorpion92]

The Isle of Faces is where Bran will be located once spring comes. He will be watching over the world from that island, that is why the lake is named God's Eye.

And yes, I too believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed at Isle of Faces in front of Old Gods, but I also think a certain septon took part in the ceremony (Septon Meribald). Thus, this marriage would have had blessings of both Old and New Gods, North and South.

I agree with all your points, OP, kudos!

[The God of Death]

An interesting bit of discussion between Bran and Jojen:

Quote

 

"What will I know?" Bran asked the Reeds afterward, when they came with torches burning brightly in their hand, to carry him back to a small chamber off the big cavern where the singers had made beds for them to sleep. "What do the trees remember?"

"The secrets of the old gods," said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes. "Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone."

 

The crannogmen remember. 

[The God of Death]

6 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

The Isle of Faces is where Bran will be located once spring comes. He will be watching over the world from that island, that is why the lake is named God's Eye.

And yes, I too believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna wed at Isle of Faces in front of Old Gods, but I also think a certain septon took part in the ceremony (Septon Meribald). Thus, this marriage would have had blessings of both Old and New Gods, North and South.

I agree with all your points, OP, kudos!

Curious, what makes you think Septon Meribald took part in the ceremony?

[Scorpion92]

50 minutes ago, The God of Death said:

Curious, what makes you think Septon Meribald took part in the ceremony?

Because we know that he is traveling Riverlands in circle for a year, performing all kinds of septon services. It is not out of realm of possibility for him to be around Harrenhal area during the year Rhaegar and Lyanna decided to marry.

[CrastorsLivingSon]

Sorry if this posts 3 times.  Boards being funny.

 

Is Meribald old enough to have been a Septon during the Tourney?

[Curled Finger]

I've read before that the Reed's greeting oath was part of the original pact between the COTF & 1st Men.  Laid out in the logical manner you present it's easier to get on board with this.   I wonder if any other clues to this pact exist in either House mottos or common sayings?   The legal union of Lyanna & Rhaegar on the Isle of Faces is another nice addition to the cycle here and certainly lays a strong foundation for Jon's destiny.  (I don't think a Septon needed to preside over a ceremony--there were no Septons before the Andals and the main Targs weren't especially religious) Still I can't help but wonder how Jon's fate is changed in losing his brother, who was supposed to be the the song, and his sister? If Jon has no choice but to suffer Aegon's fate is the blessing automatic or something he will have to find and forge for himself?  Is it possible the pact is actually a song?   

You draw a very nice picture, @The God of Death.  We need to really concentrate and pull apart pretty much everything Jojen says to find clues as to what the pact is as well as the words to the song of ice and fire.  Have you come across any other formal greetings or common sayings that may fit into the wording of the pact?

[The God of Death]

 

@Curled Finger The words of House Royce are "We remember." And their lineage goes back to the Dawn Age, so their ancestors were around at the time of the Pact.

It also seems somewhat fitting that a member of House Royce appears in the very first chapter of ASOIAF, and is killed by a White Walker, as far as why GRRM would put something important in their House words.

[Curled Finger]

@The God of Death,  The Royce family, of course...thanks for reminding me.  I've enjoyed some recent speculation regarding the identities of the 1st Men house who may have participated in the signing of the pact.  Even with the most obvious candidates (Lannister, Royce, Stark, Hightower) it's impossible to really pinpoint the families who participated.  I'm interested in this for my own purposes involving the Valyrian Steel swords.  It's been a frustrating search.  One thing I have concluded is that this pact involved the original super kings of the time.  It's a wonderful idea that The Reeds and perhaps Royce folks may still know the pact.  We already know both families were kings in their own rights now to develop a real time line.  Thanks for illuminating the possibilites.

[kissdbyfire]

51 minutes ago, The God of Death said:

 

@Curled Finger The words of House Royce are "We remember." And their lineage goes back to the Dawn Age, so their ancestors were around at the time of the Pact.

It also seems somewhat fitting that a member of House Royce appears in the very first chapter of ASOIAF, and is killed by a White Walker, as far as why GRRM would put something important in their House words.

And Bronze Yohn's armour is inscribed with runes! 

[The God of Death]

@kissdbyfire Apparently the runes read:

"Run before your blood runs."

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, The God of Death said:

@kissdbyfire Apparently the runes read:

"Run before your blood runs."

Has it been confirmed that the inscription is really the same books and show as the guy on reddit claims?

[The God of Death]

@kissdbyfire Not that I'm aware of, but I have no reason to doubt the claim. The words seem appropriately chilling for an ancient inscription.

[kissdbyfire]

22 minutes ago, The God of Death said:

@kissdbyfire Not that I'm aware of, but I have no reason to doubt the claim. The words seem appropriately chilling for an ancient inscription.

I'm not sure where he got the visual for Royce's armour in the books, since he claims the runes are the same as in the show but on his cloak instead of armour. But I haven't read the whole thread on reddit, so maybe he goes into that at some point?

[Alaynsa Starne]

Iron is Andal technology, and they were not present in Westeros until well after the Pact.

[Curled Finger]

The Royce are 1st Men--their suit of armor was made of bronze. 

2 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

Iron is Andal technology, and they were not present in Westeros until well after the Pact.

 

[House Cambodia]

6 hours ago, Alaynsa Starne said:

Iron is Andal technology, and they were not present in Westeros until well after the Pact.

Excellent OP, I love this stuff, but this was my first thought. The COTF made the Pact with the bronze-wielding First Men. Why would she swear by the Andal's iron?

[The God of Death]

Regarding Iron being introduced by the Andals -

As I was formulating this theory, this was the one piece of the puzzle that made me scratch my head. However, iron itself is still a natural element and would have been known to man even before they began to wield it as a weapon.

Also, the words of the oath could have been slightly changed over the many centuries. As iron would eventually become so important to man, it could have been put in as a subtitute for something else in the oath (like stone).

Otherwise, these words could have been taken from another pact between the children of the forest and men, sometime after the Andal invasion, but the context would be a mystery.

[Alaynsa Starne]

4 hours ago, The God of Death said:

Regarding Iron being introduced by the Andals -

As I was formulating this theory, this was the one piece of the puzzle that made me scratch my head. However, iron itself is still a natural element and would have been known to man even before they began to wield it as a weapon.

Also, the words of the oath could have been slightly changed over the many centuries. As iron would eventually become so important to man, it could have been put in as a subtitute for something else in the oath (like stone).

Otherwise, these words could have been taken from another pact between the children of the forest and men, sometime after the Andal invasion, but the context would be a mystery.

If the language of the vow is passed down from the Pact, I very much doubt that iron would have been included and paired with bronze even if the First Men were aware of iron's existence. It would be a natural substance to them, not something that would be a usable tool.

As such, I think you're probably closer to the mark when you suggest that it's something that was passed down later. I'm not sure if it would include tCotF or not, but given that the Starks at some point transitioned from bronze to iron (as we know from the iron swords in the WF crypt) it's possible this vow comes from that transitioning point. It may have been the vow the Reed family originally swore to the Starks, maybe it comes from a vow that Howland swore to Ned or Lyanna, I'm not sure. But I definitely think it is important.