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Azor Ahai, Nissa Nissa and Valyrian Steel Origins


SerPounce

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What if lightbringer is actually Valyirian steel and the way to make Valyrian steel is to temper it with blood. The sacrifice of Nissa Nissa is the the first time they figured this out. This would explain the following things:

1. Valyrian steel kills white walkers.

2. The forging of Valyrian steel uses sorcery.

3. The story about the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa.

4. The sword not getting ruined after being on fire. (it is mentioned that Thoros' swords always get ruined after he lights them on fire)

5. The origin of Valyrian steel: It is known that men from beyond the shadow tought the Valyrian's about Valyrian steel, And Azor Ahai is an Ashai story.

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Interesting thought! It certainly tie in to the fact that the only known way to reforge Valyrian Steel is a trade secret held by Qohorik smiths, that is believed to require the sacrifice of children (very believable if you read up on Qohor and their deity, the Black Goat)

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41 minutes ago, SerPounce said:

What if lightbringer is actually Valyirian steel and the way to make Valyrian steel is to temper it with blood. The sacrifice of Nissa Nissa is the the first time they figured this out. This would explain the following things:

1. Valyrian steel kills white walkers.

2. The forging of Valyrian steel uses sorcery.

3. The story about the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa.

4. The sword not getting ruined after being on fire. (it is mentioned that Thoros' swords always get ruined after he lights them on fire)

5. The origin of Valyrian steel: It is known that men from beyond the shadow thought the Valyrian's about Valyrian steel, And Azor Ahai is an Ashai story.

I might be able to get on board with this idea. But, I do not understand point 5. Did you mean "taught the Valyrians"

And maybe change the blood tempering to human blood tempering (a lion was used on the second attempt).

Now we still do not have confirmation that "dragon steel" is VS. Nor do we know that VS is effective against white walkers.

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3 hours ago, Fox of House McCloud said:

Interesting thought! It certainly tie in to the fact that the only known way to reforge Valyrian Steel is a trade secret held by Qohorik smiths, that is believed to require the sacrifice of children (very believable if you read up on Qohor and their deity, the Black Goat)

Cool find! I didn't realize that. I will read up on it. 

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4 hours ago, SerPounce said:

What if lightbringer is actually Valyirian steel and the way to make Valyrian steel is to temper it with blood. The sacrifice of Nissa Nissa is the the first time they figured this out. This would explain the following things:

1. Valyrian steel kills white walkers.

2. The forging of Valyrian steel uses sorcery.

3. The story about the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa.

4. The sword not getting ruined after being on fire. (it is mentioned that Thoros' swords always get ruined after he lights them on fire)

5. The origin of Valyrian steel: It is known that men from beyond the shadow tought the Valyrian's about Valyrian steel, And Azor Ahai is an Ashai story.

Yip. I think that's very likely. Or rather, I have always believed the secret to forging Valyrian steel is through blood sacrifice, and not through a dragon breathing on the ore during the forging process or some such baloney. It is much darker than that.

Tying it in with the forging of Lightbringer is quite clever. I like it. Lightbringer was the first Valyrian steel blade. Very possible.

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5 hours ago, SerPounce said:

What if lightbringer is actually Valyirian steel and the way to make Valyrian steel is to temper it with blood. The sacrifice of Nissa Nissa is the the first time they figured this out. This would explain the following things:

1. Valyrian steel kills white walkers.

2. The forging of Valyrian steel uses sorcery.

3. The story about the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa.

4. The sword not getting ruined after being on fire. (it is mentioned that Thoros' swords always get ruined after he lights them on fire)

5. The origin of Valyrian steel: It is known that men from beyond the shadow tought the Valyrian's about Valyrian steel, And Azor Ahai is an Ashai story.

It would be totally cool if our favorite armorer, Gendry, took a new blade and stabs Arya in the heart to make valyrian steel. 

Gendry is not Azor Ahai though.  So the only result is a dead Arya and a limp dick sword.

Dany is Azor Ahai.  Her lightbringer are the three dragons.  She "woke dragons from stone." 

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6 hours ago, SerPounce said:

What if lightbringer is actually Valyirian steel and the way to make Valyrian steel is to temper it with blood. The sacrifice of Nissa Nissa is the the first time they figured this out. This would explain the following things:

1. Valyrian steel kills white walkers.

2. The forging of Valyrian steel uses sorcery.

3. The story about the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa.

4. The sword not getting ruined after being on fire. (it is mentioned that Thoros' swords always get ruined after he lights them on fire)

5. The origin of Valyrian steel: It is known that men from beyond the shadow tought the Valyrian's about Valyrian steel, And Azor Ahai is an Ashai story.

Interesting! Some food for thought:

1. "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?"

"That was my first thought as well."

-Samwell from AFFC

2. "We will see, Jon thought, remembering the things that Sam had told him, the things he found in his old books. Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragon flame and set with spells. Dragonsteel, Sam called it." 

-Jon from ADWD

"The blade was Valerian steel, spell-forged and dark as smoke." Bran from GOT

"...one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel."

-Dany from GOT

and a few other mentions:

"those ripples, the mark of steel that has been folded back on itself many thousands of times", "Valyrian steel, spell-forged and razor sharp" 

3. The story about the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa is more centered on the "greatest sacrifice" rather than just "blood". There is quite a bit of Valyrian steel around which would mean many people would have to make that sacrifice to temper it. The story also doesn't mention spells being worked into the metal like the other accounts, but maybe it was an overlook detail. 

4. Berric Dondarrion's sword takes fire after he cuts his hand on the blade and his blood washes over it for the Hound's trial by battle. Maybe it has to do with the fire being in him, since the Lord of Light has returned him to life? Mel also mentions the fire being within her in her chapter in ADWD... hmm.. and Moqorro prays that one day the fire will fill him...

5. I think Azor Ahai is the Asshai version of the story and other regions will have their versions as well, like the Last Hero for the First Men. Is it known that the men beyond Asshai taught the Valryians how to make Valyrian steel? I couldn't find any reference for this - do you have a source by chance?

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46 minutes ago, Chatayas said:

3. The story about the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa is more centered on the "greatest sacrifice" rather than just "blood". There is quite a bit of Valyrian steel around which would mean many people would have to make that sacrifice to temper it. The story also doesn't mention spells being worked into the metal like the other accounts, but maybe it was an overlook detail. 

I think it's important to note that Azor Ahai created Lightbringer, not just a regular Valyrian Steel sword, which might have needed more specific conditions (such as his wife's heart). Standard Valyrian steel swords wouldn't need to be created in exactly the same way, but rather a similar method, using the same elements (in a process refined over time)

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I have long thought that dragon steel is VS.  I believe Azor Ahai invented the process in making VS.  Thus the lightbringer sword was the first. Another theory is that dragon glass is infused with the steel, giving the ripple effect. Blood magic may be needed to bind

the steel to obsidian and keep it from shattering.

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I've thought for awhile that human sacrifice is what makes VS and that AA may have been the first one to discover the technology. I think it's possible that the tradition of Unsullied "graduating" from training by killing a slave child is something that carried over from Valyrian warriors or smiths making their steel through the murder of slaves.

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Recipe for Valyrian Steel (my guess, anyways):

Fire and Blood, Steel, and Oily Black Stone.

It is important to note that the steel and Oily Black Stone may come "pre-mixed" in dragon bone.

Combine wet and dry ingredients and heat with dragonfire until done.

I definitely see this knowledge coming from the Shadow. The whole place is polluted with OBS, from I understand.

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  • 11 months later...

I also had this "epiphany" while reading the books quite recently, and am here because I did a quick google search to see if anyone else had the same conclusion (go us...?).  Anyway, I'll add my own thoughts and rationale to the discussion:

Azor Ahai

Imagine Azor Ahai as a smith, rather than a warrior. The first blade is typical steel; the second is equal to castle forged steel as wielded by the elite. Both of these blades shatter when quenched, which is precisely what happens to "normal" blades against an Other. The immediate destruction of these weapons is a metaphor for how the old way is useless against this threat. When Azor Ahai makes his third attempt, it takes thrice the time to complete as the first and is quenched in the heart's blood of his beloved wife, Nissa Nissa. In this instance, Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai's love for her is a metaphor reinforcing the moral weight of the sacrifice (also, it makes for a better story to tell throughout the ages). This speaks to me of blood magic and the price that must be paid if the enemy is to be defeated.

Additionally, we have the tidbits mentioned throughout the book regarding the Prince That Was Promised:

Let's imagine the Prince That Was Promised to not be a living person, but Valyrian Steel, preserved throughout the ages in this legend of a returned messianic figure.  This fits really nicely as the craft of forging fresh Valyrian Steel was lost in the doom and, like the legend says, is needed again if life is to have a chance against the coming darkness.  Coupled with the legend of Azor Ahai, this prophecy could be leading to the rediscovery of forging Valyrian Steel:

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star." This seems to be a pretty clear indication of the Valyria.  The salt and smoke are plainly the Smoking Sea, but the bleeding star can be interpreted different ways to reach a similar conclusion:

  1. The bleeding star is a poetic label for the destruction of the Valyrian Freehold.  The Freehold was once considered to be the most beautiful and prosperous city in the known world (a star), and the time following its fall was called the Century of Blood.
  2. The bleeding star is another way of describing a volcano.  We know the volcanoes in Valyria were very large so it wouldn't be far-fetched to imagine that a violent eruption seen from afar to appear as a bleeding star.
  3. Alternately, the "bleeding" could be in reference to the blood that was continually shed by the slaves working the mines in the Freehold.  One could draw a parallel here to the blood sacrifice of Nissa Nissa in Azor Ahai's legend, reinforcing the importance of blood (life) in the forging of the weapon.

"He shall wake dragons out of stone." This could go a few ways, but I don't think we should take this one literally, otherwise it would be too easy.  Rather, I think the "dragons out of stone" is a metaphor for either dragon glass or the reawakening of dormant volcanoes. 

  1. I tend to lean toward dragon glass as it's more cryptic and poetic. Plus, dragon glass possesses the same magical properties that allow Valyrian Steel to defeat the Others and I doubt this is a coincidence.  If you interpret the word "wake" to not mean literally awakening from slumber but a metaphorical awakening of knowledge that was once lost (asleep) being rediscovered (awakened), it not only makes sense but fits nicely into the cryptic poetry of these prophecies.
  2. The awakening of the volcanoes in the Freehold, or Dragonstone for that matter, seems too far-fetched and reminiscent of destruction to fit with the savior theme that these prophecies invoke.  However, this does work nicely with the final piece of the prophecy, which is a double-edged sword, really.  I can't help but question the obviousness of the connection.  Plus, I doubt a volcano is needed to forge the steel -- we've seen that a standard forge can burn hot enough to reshape the steel, yet, if dragon glass needs to be incorporated into the forging process, maybe they do need much greater heat to forge the alloy, but does it need to be a volcano or a dragon?  Couldn't wildfire also meet this requirement?

"He shall draw from the fire a burning sword, Lightbringer." By following the stated instructions, you too can have a brand spanking new Valyrian Steel sword!  Unfortunately, the instructions appear to have gotten a bit scrambled in translation from the original Asshai'i.  Figuring out as best I can with the information available, I believe that this is more of a conclusion to wrap up the story in a nice little bow, rather than a big hint or mystery to be solved.  Do X, Y, and Z and you too will have your shiny new sword!  Lightbringer, specifically, is a legend rather than an object that actually exists/exists and is a misdirect to the reader, as it's easy to put stock into and remember named things.

To summarize, the ore necessary to craft Valyrian Steel can only be found in the Valyrian Freehold.  The ore must be worked with dragon glass to create the alloy via an incredibly powerful heat source, and blood magic must be used to temper the blade.

 

My prediction is that a dragon forge will be built in Dragonstone, fueled by one or all of Dany's dragons.  An expedition will be sent to Valyria to acquire the raw ore, but only a small amount will be retrieved in time.  The question of blood magic will be debated, but ultimately it will be decided that they have to make the difficult decision of anyone is to survive.  Melisandre or Thoros will cast the rite and they will be the sacrifice that is offered up to quench the steel.  This will result in the forging of a small number of new Valyrian Steel weapons leading up to the battle with the Others.  These weapons will prove crucial in the war, and every single person who wields one will likely end up dead by the end.

 

 

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