Jon Snow Lord of Moat Cailin

[No Regard Carrenard]

It has always bother me that Ned felt like he had no options for Jon at the begin of the series. It was well within his rights to give him a modest keep on piece of fertile land much like daemon blackfyre was given. If I was Ned I would've bestowed Moat Cailin upon Jon Snow. It would be a great honor to be in such a strategic position in the North, and he is far enough away from Winterfell to keep Cat at bay.

 Restoring Moat Cailin would be Jon first task and if I couldn't arrange a marriage with a merchants daughter from White harbor,  I would let him marry for love. 

Thoughts??

[Lost Umber]

Isn't Moat Cailin in the middle of a swamp? My impression is that it's an important location for defensive purposes but pretty useless for a lord to make it his seat and try to have any incomes to maintain it.

Ned wanted to settle the Gift so he would have had options there for Jon. Jon could start the Snowstark clan... kind of like the Karstarks or Greystarks.

 

[norwaywolf123]

If i were Ned i would have gelded Jon for being Rhaegar's son and sent him to the wall to keep Cat happy.

[Adam Yozza]

3 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

If i were Ned i would have gelded Jon for being Rhaegar's son and sent him to the wall to keep Cat happy.

I get the sense that you don't like Rhaegar and/or Jon

[CJ McLannister]

44 minutes ago, Lost Umber said:

Ned wanted to settle the Gift so he would have had options there for Jon. Jon could start the Snowstark clan... kind of like the Karstarks or Greystarks.

That may have been his long-term plan if he had been able to get Mormont to agree to the settling the Gift in the first place.  I don't think he would have set Jon up as a lord, but given him a nice keep and some land to manage.

Of course, the North seems to be about 98% empty land, so it's not like the Gift was the only option there.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

46 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

If i were Ned i would have gelded Jon for being Rhaegar's son and sent him to the wall to keep Cat happy.

So basically kill a child because of who his father was. Please tell me how this is any different from what Tywin had done to Rhaegar's children or what Robert wanted to do to Dany.

[DarkSister1001]

1 hour ago, Adam Yozza said:

I get the sense that you don't like Rhaegar and/or Jon

Why bother gelding him?  He went to the Wall and the NW swears to take no wife and father no children.  It's harsh to punish a child for nothing he had any control over.

ETA:  Welcome @No Regard Carrenard!  It's an interesting question and fun to ponder the "what-ifs" but it comes down to the story.  It's more interesting this way. 

[daccu65]

2 hours ago, No Regard Carrenard said:

It has always bother me that Ned felt like he had no options for Jon at the begin of the series. It was well within his rights to give him a modest keep on piece of fertile land much like daemon blackfyre was given. If I was Ned I would've bestowed Moat Cailin upon Jon Snow. It would be a great honor to be in such a strategic position in the North, and he is far enough away from Winterfell to keep Cat at bay.

I had wondered the same thing, but with Benjan as well.  My understanding is that the North is almost all empty space, so there is plenty of room to found new holdings.  Such a holding wouldn't have to be in Moat Cailin itself.  If a keep could be founded north of the swamps, and a road established from the headwaters of the Fever River to the East Coast, such a keep could find itself on a major trading route, linking the Shivering Sea with the Sunset Sea.

1 hour ago, Lost Umber said:

Isn't Moat Cailin in the middle of a swamp? My impression is that it's an important location for defensive purposes but pretty useless for a lord to make it his seat and try to have any incomes to maintain it.

I thought that Moat Cailin was on the northern edge of the swamp; the closest point where the ground would support a castle.  The hypothetical settlement wouldn't need to be in the castle itself, just close enough to quickly occupy it when needed.

 

1 hour ago, Lost Umber said:

Ned wanted to settle the Gift so he would have had options there for Jon. Jon could start the Snowstark clan... kind of like the Karstarks or Greystarks.

I thought that The Gift was subject to the Night's Watch and not to the Warden of the North.  In other words, anyone who lived there paid their taxes to the NW.  While the Starks have a history of cooperation with the NW, it was my understanding the The Gift was like another realm, which answered to the NW and the IT.  (Of course, I could be wrong.)

 

[CJ McLannister]

1 minute ago, daccu65 said:

I thought that The Gift was subject to the Night's Watch and not to the Warden of the North.  In other words, anyone who lived there paid their taxes to the NW.  While the Starks have a history of cooperation with the NW, it was my understanding the The Gift was like another realm, which answered to the NW and the IT.  (Of course, I could be wrong.)

That was the idea, but it was mostly unused.  Ned's plan was to build there and set up some minor administrative structure (lords or the Northern equivalent of landed knights) to help keep a lid on the wildling incursions.  The Night's Watch would presumably get some revenue from that, but they would have to cede some control.  That's what Ned was trying to negotiate, but then he decided to go on vacation and never come back.

Essentially, Jon was thinking about the same plan, but with wildlings instead of loyal Northmen.  Then he got stabbed a bunch.

[John Doe]

5 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

That was the idea, but it was mostly unused.  Ned's plan was to build there and set up some minor administrative structure (lords or the Northern equivalent of landed knights) to help keep a lid on the wildling incursions.  

Do you have a quote for that? I don't remember reading that. 

 

[CJ McLannister]

I think it comes up in very vague terms early on between Ned and Benjen, but Jon describes the plan to Ygritte:

Quote

His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. "It is a dream for spring, though," Lord Eddard had said. "Even the promise of land will not lure men north with a winter coming on." If winter had come and gone more quickly and spring had followed in its turn, I might have been chosen to hold one of these towers in my father's name. Lord Eddard was dead, however, his brother Benjen lost; the shield they dreamt together would never be forged. "This land belongs to the Watch," Jon said."

 

[norwaywolf123]

6 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

I get the sense that you don't like Rhaegar and/or Jon

good

[Bright Blue Eyes]

7 hours ago, daccu65 said:

I thought that The Gift was subject to the Night's Watch and not to the Warden of the North.  In other words, anyone who lived there paid their taxes to the NW.  While the Starks have a history of cooperation with the NW, it was my understanding the The Gift was like another realm, which answered to the NW and the IT.  (Of course, I could be wrong.)

Yes, you are indeed wrong

The Gift answers to nobody at all, being a fully independent state. Something the IT likes to forget.

 

Anyway, the Warden of the North couldn't do anything with the Gift. The Lord Commander of the NW on the other hand could. And he would be named Benjen Stark (presuming 70+ years old Jeor Mormont died during the winter). It was Benjen's plan anyway.

[WSmith84]

Given that it was the Iron Throne that forced the Starks to cede the New Gift in the first place (despite warnings that it would end up as it did, IIRC), would Ned and/or Mormont need permission from the King to make this happen? Not that that would be a problem, of course, with Robert being King. Just out of curiousity.

[The Wolves]

Just now, WSmith84 said:

Given that it was the Iron Throne that forced the Starks to cede the New Gift in the first place (despite warnings that it would end up as it did, IIRC), would Ned and/or Mormont need permission from the King to make this happen? Not that that would be a problem, of course, with Robert being King. Just out of curiousity.

Nope. Because this king wouldn't give a feck so I doubt it. 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

19 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Given that it was the Iron Throne that forced the Starks to cede the New Gift in the first place (despite warnings that it would end up as it did, IIRC), would Ned and/or Mormont need permission from the King to make this happen? Not that that would be a problem, of course, with Robert being King. Just out of curiousity.

Ned, maybe. He was Robert's subject after all. But Mormont was completely independent (though respecting the IT's wishes would have been sensible because diplomacy and stuff).

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I know she's older but I'm surprised Ned didn't think about Mya Stone for Jon. Robert would have liked it for the brief moment he thought about it. Give them some land, let them make a life. It would have secured Roberts need to be Ned's brother. Imagine him talking, Ned, our grandkids......